Talk:Biotin/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: HaEr48 (talk · contribs) 21:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Will look at this. Looking forward to review it while educating myself in another vitamin, David notMD! HaEr48 (talk) 21:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Initial comments:

Biotin is composed of a ureido ring … any link for ureido?
- No link for ureido ring. I added chem compostion. David notMD (talk) 04:01, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - –N–CO–N– is not a ring, so maybe we should say a ring containing the –N–CO–N– group? HaEr48 (talk) 23:12, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - Done David notMD (talk) 21:12, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Is biotin a single compound or a group of related ones like Vitamin B12?
- Biotin is a single compound. David notMD (talk) 04:01, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"The frequency of marginal biotin status is not known" I don't understand this, is it possible to have other wording or add links to improve understanding?
- Deleted, and section revised, with refs added. David notMD (talk) 21:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The final part of "cofactor biochemistry" seems to be missing citation?
- Completely rewritten and properly referenced. David notMD (talk) 20:36, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The lead hints about genetic disorders that cause biotin deficiency, is this the same as the biotinidase deficiency described in #Deficiency? If yes, can you mention it? If not, what are the genetic disorders?
- Details added. David notMD (talk) 02:29, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"This enzyme is responsible...": How about "Biotinidase is an enzyme responsible ..." ?

Done. David notMD (talk) 02:29, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Biotinidase deficiency seems to be introduced twice, in #Deficiency and in #Metabolic disorders. Maybe better combine them? Or just describe fully in the first mention, and name it without intro in the second usage?
- Resolved. David notMD (talk) 02:34, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
the proteolytic degradation products of each holocarboxylase: Could you explain what each holocarboxylase refers to?
- Resolved. David notMD (talk) 02:36, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per user talk, will continue reviewing after the nominator finishes making other updates. Thank you! HaEr48 (talk) 22:40, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I will address the above bullets and indicate what other sections added or modified.

- Added Diagnosis subsection to Deficiency. David notMD (talk) 04:01, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Added Animals section. David notMD (talk) 17:59, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed Bioavailability to Physiology, with subsections on absorption, metabolism, excretion, and conditions that affect biotin status. David notMD (talk) 22:00, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Added Prevalence, diagnosis and treatment subsection to Metabolic disorders. David notMD (talk) 21:28, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Biosynthesis revised to include ref for plants synthesizing and requiring biotin to function. David notMD (talk) 21:54, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Other comments

I have found that this article has a minor flaw. It does not fit the Good Article criteria, part 1.a. and 2.b. According to 1.a., the article should be "clear", i.e. precise and have no vague or incomplete statements. It should not contain sentences that provoke further questions merely because these statements are formulated in such a way. According 2.b. of the criteria, an article should not contain "counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged", unless there are citations from reliable sources to support these statements. I have found statements that are not clear and are likely to be challenged. See Talk:Biotin/Archive 1#Absorption for details. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 08:18, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maxim Masiutin has move more specific comments about the state of the article to Talk:Biotin and created an Absorption section there, so being addressed there. David notMD (talk) 18:52, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have addressed most of the Absorption questions. Will complete this evening. David notMD (talk) 21:10, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much! The current edit, on my understanding, resolves the issues (1.a. and 2.b.). Maxim Masiutin (talk) 22:14, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Second round comments

demonstrated an ability to update biotin. Is update here in the generic sense of "modify something to be more recent"? How does a molecule get updated? If there is a specific sense in biology, maybe link the appropriate concept?
- "uptake", not "update" Fixed. David notMD (talk) 21:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Biosynthesis: does the synthesis by colon microbiota happen the same way as in the plants (as described)? Might it be worth mentioning explicitly?
- Bacterial synthesis of biotin confirmed David notMD (talk) 21:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Biosynthesis: This section ends with the creation of dethiobiotin, but this molecule is not explained elsewhere. Is it the form that gets consumed by humans and animals? Or is there an additional step in plants that converts it into biotin?
- Clarified that dethiobiotin converted to biotin in plants and bacteria by biotin synthase. David notMD (talk) 21:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Move the linking of biotinylation to the first mention.
- I cannot locate the first mention. What section? David notMD (talk) 11:05, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - @David notMD: The #Definition section mentions it first HaEr48 (talk) 03:21, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - The earlier appearance of biotinylation is now the Wikilinked one.
"range of 10⁻¹⁴ to 10⁻¹⁵ M)": There is a stray parenthesis, or do you mean to add an opening one somewhere?
- Typo, Fixed. David notMD (talk) 23:16, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The section "Use in biotechnology" mostly describes what happens after the protein gets biotinylated, but can we have more detail on the biotinylation first? How is it done, and how to avoid biotinylating the other proteins that are meant to be washed away?
- Improved description of the process, based on existing refs. David notMD (talk) 18:19, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"diagnostic immunoassay blood assays that use biotin-streptavidin technology" I think there are too many "assay" in this sentence?
- Reworded David notMD (talk) 12:02, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
is it valid to say "clinical trialed"?
- Reworded to avoid. David notMD (talk) 23:16, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hair, nails, skin: out of curiosity, do regulators require trials before allowing the marketing of a supplement for certain benefit? As in, is the marketing described in this section considered within the law?
- Prior to my retirement I was an expert science consultant to US dietary supplement companies. Loosely, the rules are that a company cannot sell a drug until the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) says so, and a company can sell a dietary supplement until the FDA says stop. Clinical trials are nice but not necessary. As per the nature of a health claim, the law allows what are defined as Structure:Function claims on labels. These cannot be treatment claims. Labeling requires a specifically worded disclaimer statement. I have added more detail and a reference explaining this. David notMD (talk) 22:42, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The lead is supposed to be a summary of the article body. These items are mentioned in the lead without being the body, suggest adding them to the body
- the etymology (maybe add into #History?)
  - Done David notMD (talk) 21:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- biotin transporter deficiency
  - Done David notMD (talk) 11:05, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- The history of neonatal screening
  - Done David notMD (talk) 21:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- The fact that the supplement treatment is lifelong
  - Done David notMD (talk) 21:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the review delay. A fine article! HaEr48 (talk) 23:31, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The game is afoot! David notMD (talk) 01:22, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I also have a problem in understanding the term "update" in the "absorption" section. Maybe use another term, easier to understand, or use a longer explanation that layman readers understand what does "update" mean? Maybe write the other way using the term "update", or explain what does this term mean? Maxim Masiutin (talk) 16:35, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See above. David notMD (talk) 12:03, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, the term 'uptake' is clear for me. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 14:38, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have adequately addressed all the comments of the second round. David notMD (talk) 18:19, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: Histone biochemistry now a separate section with more detail and a new ref. David notMD (talk) 10:12, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for mentioning. I wonder if we need "In addition to the carboxylase functions described above" in this section? Unless there is a more specific relation between the two, this feels redundant because of course this section talks about another biochemical role of biotin. HaEr48 (talk) 02:44, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done. David notMD (talk) 04:01, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. Maxim Masiutin, given that you have commented on this review, do you have further concerns? Otherwise I am ready to promote the article. HaEr48 (talk) 13:18, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@HaEr48: Thank you for your excellent review of the article. My concerns did only relate to the "Absorption" section, but now the section looks great and I have no further concerns. It is now emphasized that how much is absorbed in humans is unknown, to avoid speculations, since I saw conflicting opinions. One low quality opinion, from a Biotin lab kit manual, mentioned that no absorption from bacteria at all is done in humans, but this opinion does not meet Wikipedia standards. This is probably a topic of current research, but no high-quality data that would have confirmed the absorption in humans also exist, at least I didn't see, although I have searched. Thank you very much again, and feel free to promote the article. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 16:48, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I have promoted the article because in my view it meets the GA criteria, and the nominator have addressed all my suggestions. Thank you very much for the fine work, David notMD, and sorry for the delay! HaEr48 (talk) 20:48, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And thank you for your diligence. Without it, I would not have worked so much on the content that was in the article before I began the GA effort, nor focus on adding new sections. I will be submitting a DYK for this one. David notMD (talk) 22:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]