Talk:Brickyard 400

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Television and media

Because the most important information appears at the top of articles in good writing, descending as it goes on, I would like to know why commentators and pit reporters have been deemed to be the most important people in the history of this race. It seems immensely wrong that representatives of the media, and at that a heavy emphasis of only one stream of the media, is given priority over competitors. And team owners. And crew chiefs. And senior race officials. And staff of IMS and other race organisers. And print media. And electronic media. And...

I additionally note the above merger discussion actually favoured deletion over the merger that actually took place. --Falcadore (talk) 23:20, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A simple fix would be to move the Television section to the bottom. Which I have now accomplished. Doctorindy (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not really a fix. Nowhere in the content is it explained why this is of particular significance to the article. It is not explained why this is essential information necessary to the understanding of the topic, and not trivia. --Falcadore (talk) 03:33, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The most recent discussion about including television information in race info pages was done HERE. You seem to be continuing your one-man fight against TV information of all sorts. Consensus appears to tilt against your view. The "discussion" above shows the only editor in favor of deletion was yourself. I respectfully think the tagging, and the anti-effort is unnecessary. But I'm not going to make a fight out of it.Doctorindy (talk) 16:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The level of debate seemed to be "who died and left me in charge". Wasn't exactly the most well reasoned debate in history, and some of the reasons given weren't relevant. --Falcadore (talk) 20:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Article name

What are we going to do with the name of the article? Are we going to name it Crown Royal Presents the Your Name Here 400 (the same as Richmond's, which needs to be changed) or Crown Royal 400? Also some ideas for the Richmond article would be nice. -- Nascar1996^{(Talk • Contribs)} 21:13, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

While WP:COMMONNAME doesn't apply to most NASCAR races, think it would to this one. --Falcadore (talk) 22:02, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's actually the Crown Royal Your Hero's Name Here 400 at the Brickyard (so it's slightly different than the Richmond title). The news releases do not seem to be clear on how long this sponsorship arrangement is. Chances are it's longer than one year; if it's just one time, it seems like overkill to move it. Now, in the past, NASCAR race articles have been routinely moved to the current sponsor name with the generic/common name rendered only to a redirect page. Crown Royal Your Hero's Name Here 400 at the Brickyard is currently a re-direct page, and moving it the proper way would be difficult. I suggest keeping it as it is for now, and re-assess when it comes time closer to the event. Doctorindy (talk) 16:23, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's completely fine with me. I was going to wait for the name of the Richmond race (which currently doesn't have a sponsor) and rename it so these races will not be confused. -- Nascar1996^{(Talk • Contribs)} 20:18, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't a large part of NASCAR races changing names when sponsors change largely because they don't have a satisfactory in use Common name? Strikes me this is the same debate as a recent one about the 24 Hours of Daytona and should be rejected for the same reason. --Falcadore (talk) 19:45, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Normally each track has a contract with sponsors for a race. Some are only one year, while others are longer (such as Ford Motor Company in the Ford Championship Weekend.) I wish they would stop using sponsors, but they need money to have the race. If it wasn't needed, it would be easier to keep track of NASCAR's races. -- Nascar1996^{(Talk • Contribs)} 21:37, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But this is not one of those races is it? It has its own identity completely separate to individual sponsorships. Is the term Brickyard 400 far more common than individual sponsored identities? If so, and it certainly seems that way to me, it should not be moved. --Falcadore (talk) 00:50, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to figure out how long the contract with Crown Royal is. This says it could be a multi-year contract. By the way, what was the articles name around 2007-2009 when Allstate had the sponsor? -- Nascar1996^{(Talk • Contribs)} 01:22, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article was moved to its current name from Allstate 400 at the Brickyard, in July 2009. Doesn't change my opinion mind you. If a common name does exist, then transitory sponsored names should not be used. --Falcadore (talk) 02:21, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it could stay Brickyard 400. It shouldn't matter. Brickyard 400 should be more common. -- Nascar1996^{(Talk • Contribs)} 02:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The NASCAR race name situation is much like the bowl game situation. Over the years, most of the bowl games have gone to exclusive sponsor names, supplanting the "common" name. For instance, the Peach Bowl is now known as the Chick-fil-A Bowl, and despite over 40 years of having the common/generic name "Peach Bowl," it was moved on Wiki to the sponsor name because that IS the official name of the game now. Likewise, some of the newer bowl games, which never really had a common name, go straight to be known as sponsored names on wiki. Contrast that with the Discover Orange Bowl, which still uses the common name in its title...it is located on wiki at Orange Bowl, since the common name is still recognized to some extent. WIth that in mind, I think this page should stay at Brickyard 400, since there is some outside precident. Doctorindy (talk) 18:36, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are we going to leave it "Crown Royal Presents the Your Hero's Name Here 400 at the Brickyard" even though we wanted to keep Brickyard 400? -- Nascar1996^{(Talk • Contribs)} 03:44, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 31 August 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) The editor whose username is Z0 08:53, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

– We don't need to include the sponsor name (which changes frequently) in the name of this race. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:56, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support - The sponsor full name should be in the lead, but the article title should be in a consistent style with each other. --Gonnym (talk) 19:38, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support move for obvious reasons. The common name of this event is "Brickyard 400" without a sponsor name. ONR (talk) 12:41, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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Brickyard 400 Logo.png

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Requested move 7 September 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was proposed in this section that Verizon 200 be renamed and moved to Brickyard 400.

result:
Moved. See below talk of a split, which is of course a separate issue, and while I'm not well-versed in histmerges, there is seen to be ample consensus to rename this back to the proposed title. Kudos to all editors for your input, and Happy, Healthy Publishing! (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 13:42, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Links: current log • target log

This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Verizon 200 → Brickyard 400 – This article should be focused on the race that took place on the Indianapolis Motor Speedway oval from 1994-2020. It should be moved back to it's common name, and info about the new-for-2021 race on the IMS road course should be split into it's own article. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 21:42, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural comment: This is a request to revert an undiscussed move away from a title that was the outcome of an RM consensus. As a procedural matter, this should be granted rapidly as a speedy revert. I have therefore carried out this request. However, I did not close the discussion. If there are no objections to closure within a couple of days, I may also close the RM. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's no real reason to split the IMS road course race into its own article. Such a move has not been done previously in other situations. The Bank of America Roval 400 is the same article that always was the fall Charlotte oval race. Likewise the Busch Clash, which moved to the Daytona road course, wasn't broken off to a new article, nor was Pennzoil 150. The "Verizon 200 at the Brickyard" represents a continuous lineage of the NASCAR Cup Series race at IMS. Plus, it is not 100% certain they will permanently stay on the road course. It is possible in the future they might go back to the oval. Doctorindy↔Talk 13:23, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- The difference here is that the Brickyard 400 was a crown jewel race, whereas the Verizon 200 is just another race on the schedule. There is also the possibility of NASCAR running both the Brickyard 400 and Verizon 200 in the same year. [1] This source covers both of those angles. The prestige of the Brickyard 400 compared to literally everything else you linked to warrants either an exception or a new precedent. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 14:44, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Alternatively, we can do what I did with Michigan. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 14:53, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    In other words move this to NASCAR Cup Series at Indianapolis Motor Speedway since you now have a race that isn't sure whether it's a 200, 400, or both. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:46, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Up for debate, but in that case, I'd currently support Brickyard 400 as the COMMONNAME for that. Specifically, I mean creating new tables for the race(s) on the road course GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 19:51, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Surely "Brickyard 400" is not still the common name of the Verizon 200. I'd buy the claim that "Brickyard 200" is the common name for this year's version though. – wbm1058 (talk) 20:41, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    
    This kind-of-official-looking page calls it "Brickyard 200". Alternatively, the Brickyard Nascar Race. – wbm1058 (talk) 20:49, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I wouldn't call that a reliable source any more than Anthony Fantano's music reviews are not allowed to be used on album articles, as it appears to be run by a single person named "Dan" posting information from the actual official website of the track. In addition to the secondary source I posted above, said official website in a news release referred to the 2021 race as an "inaugural running" [2], which supports the argument for a split. GhostOfDanGurney (talk)
    Sure, but you're proposing a move here, not a split. I could do a WP:Histsplit of the old content from before the character of the race was changed changed from oval to combined race course. I don't think keeping the old name is viable without such a split. We can't have an article titled Brickyard 400 without a separate article titled Verizon 200, Brickyard 200, or some variant of that. – wbm1058 (talk) 22:15, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The move I was proposing was already done, and I've gone and made a formal split proposal. :] GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 22:30, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    OK. Now we have a couple of malformed proposals. I'm going to revert the last move since a history-split would be done in the other direction. – wbm1058 (talk) 22:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This RM is not a malformed proposal. It is a simple request to revert an undiscussed move away from the previously declared consensus title. Other issues can be discussed separately. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:07, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Revert to Brickyard 400 regardless of whether the Grand Prix course race gets split off - The "Brickyard 400" name has lasting recognisability and significance that this ephemeral sponsored title does not. The Brickyard 400 was a crown jewel race for a significant period of time, this new road course event is not. If we don't split the article, and the "Verizon 200" title sticks around for a quarter of a century, then it might become a more appropriate title, just as "Coca-Cola 600" is now a more appropriate title than "World 600". I would note than Autosport (an independent reliable source) generally clarifies what sponsored names actually mean when they come up in quotes, and that the Coca-Cola 600 is the only sponsored race title they seem to treat as a WP:COMMONNAME while covering the Nascar calendar. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 03:01, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Follow up: I would also support moving the article to Nascar Cup Series at Indianapolis Motor Speedway or some other generic name like that, although I think Brickyard 400 is more established and proper when referring to the oval event. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 03:07, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Splitting proposal

I propose that sections concerning races at the Indianapolis road course be split into a separate page called Brickyard 200. I believe that both primary and secondary sources support the notion that the 2021 event was "the inaugural running of the Verizon 200 at the Brickyard", and that the move from the oval to the road course resulted in the series "[losing] a crown jewel".[3] [4] GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 21:51, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

After a search through the page history I found this 12:23, 9 November 2020 edit to be the first that changed the race from the oval to the road course. The result of this proposed history split would be to make that 12:23, 9 November 2020 edit the oldest edit in the Verizon 200 page history, and this 03:45, 3 November 2020 version would be the most recent version of the Brickyard 400 article. The deleted File:Bigmachine400-logo-scaled.jpg could be restored as the last logo of the 400-on-oval version of the race, and the lead sentence would be edited to say "The Brickyard 400 iswas an annual 400-mile (643.738 km) NASCAR Cup Series points race..." along with other edits describing the fate of that race and pointing to the Verizon 200 article as its successor. – wbm1058 (talk) 23:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The suggestion made above...."In other words move this to NASCAR Cup Series at Indianapolis Motor Speedway since you now have a race that isn't sure whether it's a 200, 400, or both"....might be the best solution for the time being. The term "Brickyard 200" has never been used in any reliable or official source. Doctorindy↔Talk 14:29, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Split - I agree that both this and the article about Nascar Cup Series races held at Charlotte in the Autumn should both be split. Most coverage I have seen of the Indy Grand Prix course race and the Charlotte Roval race treat them as separate events to the Brickyard 400 and the previous Charlotte oval race. While they take place at the same venue, they are fundamentally different disciplines. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 02:53, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Split Absolutely agree with splitting. IMS itself views the 400 and 200 as different events and even calls the 2021 event the inaugural. ^[1] KD0710 (talk) 16:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have split this article into Brickyard 400 and Verizon 200 at the Brickyard

References

^ https://www.indianapolismotorspeedway.com/news-multimedia/news/2021/08/16/aj-allmendinger-nascar-verizon-200?startrow=1

[1] ttps://www.indianapolismotorspeedway.com/news-multimedia/news/2021/08/16/aj-allmendinger-nascar-verizon-200?startrow=1

[1]