Talk:Beta-decay stable isobars

I stopped transforming the list of beta-stable nuclides because I first like to hear other people oppinion to this kind of presentation and I'm not quite lucky with my form. Else I type in this table and then I must layout it completely different, because others have better ideas.

At the moment, it is unclear to people who do not know the subject, what this is about! It would very much help if you put explanation in along with the table you are presenting. Quantpole (talk) 22:58, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your helpful want-to-be hand. :) I wrote just a very bad introduction, but hopefully give the most important informations. Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Achim1999 (talk • contribs) 11:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For current bad reasons: I just was forced two times bei Abce2 and previous by L... (see history of the article-page) to restore the page main contens because they simple deleted most of information I added. If such behaviour stays I will no longer build up this page! Or you must give me exclusive write-acces to prevent such vandalism. Regards! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Achim1999 (talk • contribs) 14:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Known Line of beta-stability finally converted completely into list of nuclides. :) Better to replace (@) in this list resp. table by colored nuclide-symbols to get this table a bit narrower? Achim1999 (talk) 14:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Decays contrary to table in this article?

Decaying nuclide	You list as stable	You list as unstable
17 Chlorine-36	2% to Sulfur-36	98% to Argon-36
19 Potassium-40	11.2% to Argon-40	89% to Calcium-40
47 Silver-108	0% to Palladium-108	100% to Cadmium-108
61 Promethium-146	37% to Samarium-146	63% to Neodymium-146

--JWB (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is your problem respectively question? Regards, Achim1999 (talk) 11:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In these 4 rows, what you have marked as the most beta-stable isobar of that mass, is different from what you would expect based on the direction of beta decay of adjacent isobars. --JWB (talk) 19:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These 4 rows are yours! They are not from the article (-- I wonder about the use of your first column in this relation). I suggest you first read CAREFULLY what is stated in the article. :) E.g.: It is stated that for A=36 there are 2 beta-stable nuclides, namely ³⁶S and ³⁶Ar. Moreover the last is in italic because it may transform with double-beta decay or double e^–-capture into sulfur-36. BTW: Your wording "most beta-stable" seems to be your invention. :) Regards, Achim1999 (talk) 21:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is "Beta-decay stable" from a source? I see 461 Google hits but they appear to be Wikipedia mirrors. If the term is your own, see WP:Neologism.

I can think of several possible meanings for "beta-decay stable":

1) Not observed to beta decay

2) Not predicted to beta decay by specific theory

3) Lowest-mass isobar for this mass number (this is what you seem to be using)

4) Direction of beta decays of other isobars of this mass number all point towards this isobar, i.e. lower-Z isobars beta-minus decay and higher-Z isobars beta-plus decay or electron capture. (this is what I used in my chart cited above)

If you are going to stick to only your definition, it would be clearer to call it something like List of lightest isobars by mass number.

If you are going to stick to a term like "beta-decay stable", you should discuss the possible meanings of the term, since people may assume various ones.

Also, the fact that 3) and 4) are opposite for the 4 cases above is interesting and would be a good point to discuss in this or another Wikipedia article. I do not have an explanation for this, do you?

--JWB (talk) 22:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"beta-decay stable" seems to be a short-hand for "stable against beta-decay", i.e. unable to decay by (simple) beta(+/-) -decay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.207.6.220 (talk) 21:21, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Number "136"

The number "136" has only 2 beta-decay-stable nuclides---The nuclide "Xn-136" is unstable! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.126.202.81 (talk) 14:49, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Beta-decay stable isobars. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131217155419/http://wsyachina.narod.ru/physics/all_matter/sist-1a.jpg to http://wsyachina.narod.ru/physics/all_matter/sist-1a.jpg

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 23:35, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian prediction (linked) for the continuation of the line of beta stability to the superheavy region

All beta-decay stable isobars with A ≤ 312 sorted by mass number
Odd A	Even A	Odd A	Even A	Odd A	Even A	Odd A	Even A
¹H	²H	³He	⁴He	⁵He (n)	⁶Li	⁷Li	⁸Be (α)
⁹Be	¹⁰B	¹¹B	¹²C	¹³C	¹⁴N	¹⁵N	¹⁶O
¹⁷O	¹⁸O	¹⁹F	²⁰Ne	²¹Ne	²²Ne	²³Na	²⁴Mg
²⁵Mg	²⁶Mg	²⁷Al	²⁸Si	²⁹Si	³⁰Si	³¹P	³²S
³³S	³⁴S	³⁵Cl	³⁶S ← ³⁶Ar	³⁷Cl	³⁸Ar	³⁹K	⁴⁰Ar ← ⁴⁰Ca
⁴¹K	⁴²Ca	⁴³Ca	⁴⁴Ca	⁴⁵Sc	⁴⁶Ca → ⁴⁶Ti	⁴⁷Ti	⁴⁸Ti
⁴⁹Ti	⁵⁰Ti ← ⁵⁰Cr	⁵¹V	⁵²Cr	⁵³Cr	⁵⁴Cr ← ⁵⁴Fe	⁵⁵Mn	⁵⁶Fe
⁵⁷Fe	⁵⁸Fe ← ⁵⁸Ni	⁵⁹Co	⁶⁰Ni	⁶¹Ni	⁶²Ni	⁶³Cu	⁶⁴Ni ← ⁶⁴Zn
⁶⁵Cu	⁶⁶Zn	⁶⁷Zn	⁶⁸Zn	⁶⁹Ga	⁷⁰Zn → ⁷⁰Ge	⁷¹Ga	⁷²Ge
⁷³Ge	⁷⁴Ge ← ⁷⁴Se	⁷⁵As	⁷⁶Ge → ⁷⁶Se	⁷⁷Se	⁷⁸Se ← ⁷⁸Kr	⁷⁹Br	⁸⁰Se → ⁸⁰Kr
⁸¹Br	⁸²Se → ⁸²Kr	⁸³Kr	⁸⁴Kr ← ⁸⁴Sr	⁸⁵Rb	⁸⁶Kr → ⁸⁶Sr	⁸⁷Sr	⁸⁸Sr
⁸⁹Y	⁹⁰Zr	⁹¹Zr	⁹²Zr ← ⁹²Mo	⁹³Nb	⁹⁴Zr → ⁹⁴Mo	⁹⁵Mo	⁹⁶Mo ← ⁹⁶Ru
⁹⁷Mo	⁹⁸Mo → ⁹⁸Ru	⁹⁹Ru	¹⁰⁰Mo → ¹⁰⁰Ru	¹⁰¹Ru	¹⁰²Ru ← ¹⁰²Pd	¹⁰³Rh	¹⁰⁴Ru → ¹⁰⁴Pd
¹⁰⁵Pd	¹⁰⁶Pd ← ¹⁰⁶Cd	¹⁰⁷Ag	¹⁰⁸Pd ← ¹⁰⁸Cd	¹⁰⁹Ag	¹¹⁰Pd → ¹¹⁰Cd	¹¹¹Cd	¹¹²Cd ← ¹¹²Sn
¹¹³In	¹¹⁴Cd → ¹¹⁴Sn	¹¹⁵Sn	¹¹⁶Cd → ¹¹⁶Sn	¹¹⁷Sn	¹¹⁸Sn	¹¹⁹Sn	¹²⁰Sn ← ¹²⁰Te
¹²¹Sb	¹²²Sn → ¹²²Te	¹²³Sb	¹²⁴Sn → ¹²⁴Te ← ¹²⁴Xe	¹²⁵Te	¹²⁶Te ← ¹²⁶Xe	¹²⁷I	¹²⁸Te → ¹²⁸Xe
¹²⁹Xe	¹³⁰Te → ¹³⁰Xe ← ¹³⁰Ba	¹³¹Xe	¹³²Xe ← ¹³²Ba	¹³³Cs	¹³⁴Xe → ¹³⁴Ba	¹³⁵Ba	¹³⁶Xe → ¹³⁶Ba ← ¹³⁶Ce
¹³⁷Ba	¹³⁸Ba ← ¹³⁸Ce	¹³⁹La	¹⁴⁰Ce	¹⁴¹Pr	¹⁴²Ce → ¹⁴²Nd	¹⁴³Nd	¹⁴⁴Nd (α) ← ¹⁴⁴Sm
¹⁴⁵Nd	¹⁴⁶Nd → ¹⁴⁶Sm (α)	¹⁴⁷Sm (α)	¹⁴⁸Nd → ¹⁴⁸Sm (α)	¹⁴⁹Sm	¹⁵⁰Nd → ¹⁵⁰Sm ← ¹⁵⁰Gd (α)	¹⁵¹Eu (α)	¹⁵²Sm ← ¹⁵²Gd (α)
¹⁵³Eu	¹⁵⁴Sm → ¹⁵⁴Gd ← ¹⁵⁴Dy (α)	¹⁵⁵Gd	¹⁵⁶Gd ← ¹⁵⁶Dy	¹⁵⁷Gd	¹⁵⁸Gd ← ¹⁵⁸Dy	¹⁵⁹Tb	¹⁶⁰Gd → ¹⁶⁰Dy
¹⁶¹Dy	¹⁶²Dy ← ¹⁶²Er	¹⁶³Dy	¹⁶⁴Dy ← ¹⁶⁴Er	¹⁶⁵Ho	¹⁶⁶Er	¹⁶⁷Er	¹⁶⁸Er ← ¹⁶⁸Yb
¹⁶⁹Tm	¹⁷⁰Er → ¹⁷⁰Yb	¹⁷¹Yb	¹⁷²Yb	¹⁷³Yb	¹⁷⁴Yb ← ¹⁷⁴Hf	¹⁷⁵Lu	¹⁷⁶Yb → ¹⁷⁶Hf
¹⁷⁷Hf	¹⁷⁸Hf	¹⁷⁹Hf	¹⁸⁰Hf ← ¹⁸⁰W (α)	¹⁸¹Ta	¹⁸²W	¹⁸³W	¹⁸⁴W ← ¹⁸⁴Os (α)
¹⁸⁵Re	¹⁸⁶W → ¹⁸⁶Os (α)	¹⁸⁷Os	¹⁸⁸Os	¹⁸⁹Os	¹⁹⁰Os ← ¹⁹⁰Pt (α)	¹⁹¹Ir	¹⁹²Os → ¹⁹²Pt
¹⁹³Ir	¹⁹⁴Pt	¹⁹⁵Pt	¹⁹⁶Pt ← ¹⁹⁶Hg	¹⁹⁷Au	¹⁹⁸Pt → ¹⁹⁸Hg	¹⁹⁹Hg	²⁰⁰Hg
²⁰¹Hg	²⁰²Hg	²⁰³Tl	²⁰⁴Hg → ²⁰⁴Pb	²⁰⁵Tl	²⁰⁶Pb	²⁰⁷Pb	²⁰⁸Pb
²⁰⁹Bi (α)	²¹⁰Po (α)	²¹¹Po (α)	²¹²Po (α) ← ²¹²Rn (α)	²¹³Po (α)	²¹⁴Po (α) ← ²¹⁴Rn (α)	²¹⁵At (α)	²¹⁶Po (α) → ²¹⁶Rn (α)
²¹⁷Rn (α)	²¹⁸Rn (α) ← ²¹⁸Ra (α)	²¹⁹Fr (α)	²²⁰Rn (α) → ²²⁰Ra (α)	²²¹Ra (α)	²²²Ra (α)	²²³Ra (α)	²²⁴Ra (α) ← ²²⁴Th (α)
²²⁵Ac (α)	²²⁶Ra (α) → ²²⁶Th (α)	²²⁷Th (α)	²²⁸Th (α)	²²⁹Th (α)	²³⁰Th (α) ← ²³⁰U (α)	²³¹Pa (α)	²³²Th (α) → ²³²U (α)
²³³U (α)	²³⁴U (α)	²³⁵U (α)	²³⁶U (α) ← ²³⁶Pu (α)	²³⁷Np (α)	²³⁸U (α) → ²³⁸Pu (α)	²³⁹Pu (α)	²⁴⁰Pu (α)
²⁴¹Am (α)	²⁴²Pu (α) ← ²⁴²Cm (α)	²⁴³Am (α)	²⁴⁴Pu (α) → ²⁴⁴Cm (α)	²⁴⁵Cm (α)	²⁴⁶Cm (α)	²⁴⁷Bk (α)	²⁴⁸Cm (α) → ²⁴⁸Cf (α)
²⁴⁹Cf (α)	²⁵⁰Cf (α)	²⁵¹Cf (α)	²⁵²Cf (α) ← ²⁵²Fm (α)	²⁵³Es (α)	²⁵⁴Cf (SF) → ²⁵⁴Fm (α)	²⁵⁵Fm (α)	²⁵⁶Cf (SF) → ²⁵⁶Fm (SF)
²⁵⁷Fm (α)	²⁵⁸Fm (SF) ← ²⁵⁸No (SF)	²⁵⁹Md (SF)	²⁶⁰Fm (SF) → ²⁶⁰No (SF)	²⁶¹No (α, SF)	²⁶²No (SF)	²⁶³No (α, SF)	²⁶⁴No (SF) ← ²⁶⁴Rf (α, SF)
²⁶⁵Lr (α)	²⁶⁶No (SF) → ²⁶⁶Rf (SF)	²⁶⁷Rf (SF)	²⁶⁸Rf (α)	²⁶⁹Db (α)	²⁷⁰Rf (SF) ← ²⁷⁰Sg (α)	²⁷¹Db (α, SF)	²⁷²Rf (SF) → ²⁷²Sg (α, SF)
²⁷³Sg (SF)	²⁷⁴Sg (SF)	²⁷⁵Sg (SF)	²⁷⁶Sg (SF) ← ²⁷⁶Hs (SF)	²⁷⁷Bh (SF)	²⁷⁸Hs (SF)	²⁷⁹Hs (SF)	²⁸⁰Hs (SF) ← ²⁸⁰Ds (SF)
²⁸¹Hs (SF)	²⁸²Hs (SF) ← ²⁸²Ds (SF)	²⁸³Mt (SF)	²⁸⁴Ds (SF)	²⁸⁵Ds (SF)	²⁸⁶Ds (SF) ← ²⁸⁶Cn (SF)	²⁸⁷Ds (SF)	²⁸⁸Ds (SF) ← ²⁸⁸Cn (α, SF)
²⁸⁹Rg (SF)	²⁹⁰Cn (SF)	²⁹¹Cn (SF)	²⁹²Cn (SF) ← ²⁹²Fl (α)	²⁹³Cn (α, SF)	²⁹⁴Cn (SF) → ²⁹⁴Fl (α)	²⁹⁵Fl (α)	²⁹⁶Fl (α)
²⁹⁷Fl (α)	²⁹⁸Fl (α) ← ²⁹⁸Lv (α)	²⁹⁹Mc (α)	³⁰⁰Fl (α, SF) → ³⁰⁰Lv (α)	³⁰¹Lv (α)	³⁰²Lv (α)	³⁰³Lv (α, SF)	³⁰⁴Lv (SF) ← ³⁰⁴Og (α)
³⁰⁵Ts (SF)	³⁰⁶Lv (SF) → ³⁰⁶Og (SF)	³⁰⁷Og (SF)	³⁰⁸Og (SF)	³⁰⁹Og (SF)	³¹⁰Og (SF) ← ³¹⁰120 (SF) ?	³¹¹119 (SF) ?	³¹²Og (SF) → ³¹²120 (SF) ?

I would prefer something more recent, though. (Fairly obviously, all these nuclei must undergo α decay or spontaneous fission. Decay modes are from [1], correcting the original old Russian source if necessary. Unfortunately, that chart of predictions stops at N = 189.) Double sharp (talk) 09:17, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It might be salutary to remark that despite the great difficulties of getting enough neutrons into superheavy nuclides via fusion-evaporation reactions, we have somehow managed to heroically follow the line of beta stability until Ds, element 110. (We know of ²⁶²No, ²⁶⁶Lr, ²⁷⁰Rf, ²⁷⁰Db, ²⁷¹Sg, ²⁷⁸Bh, ²⁷⁷Hs, ²⁸²Mt, and ²⁸⁰Ds.) Double sharp (talk) 13:58, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I found a chart of decay modes going beyond N = 189; updated. We may also have found ²⁸⁶Cn! Double sharp (talk) 14:11, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. That chart going just beyond N = 200 is from Karpov, Zagrebaev et al. as well: doi:10.1142/S0218301312500139. The "failure" at Nh is clearly visible. Double sharp (talk) 11:56, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, glad to know that some source has explicitly predicted the third element with no beta stable isotope (Z = 113) and the next even neutron numbers with only two beta stable isotopes (N = 176 and 180)! Also, judging from the trend of the table, the energy difference between ²⁸⁸Ds and ²⁸⁸Cn as well as ²⁹⁴Cn and ²⁹⁴Fl must be very small (like the case of ⁹⁸Mo and ⁹⁸Ru as well as ¹⁴⁶Nd and ¹⁴⁶Sm). 129.104.241.214 (talk) 23:12, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actually this is not so much a reliable source as a synthesis of two. :) I think I compiled this six and a half years ago based on updating the external link on the article with Zagrebaev et al.'s data. It is nonetheless pretty much as you say regarding the explicit prediction for Z = 113: in Zagrebaev et al.'s chart, every Nh isotope near the expected beta-stable valley suffers either β⁺ or β⁻. But KTUY model disagrees and claims ^295,297Nh should be beta-stable: you may view their predictions here. Well, for Tc and Pm it is also a close thing. :)

I also realise I made a mistake for mass 281. The old source gives it to ²⁸¹Mt, but Zagrebaev et al. give it a small β⁺ branch. Corrected to ²⁸¹Hs: the only beta-stable isotope for Mt should be 283. So N = 172 also has only two (²⁸⁰Hs and ²⁸²Ds). That makes 282 another anomaly like 288 and 294, which perhaps suggests that this exercise of reconciling two sources ought to be taken with some pinches of salt. :)

Differences where Zagrebaev et al. differ from the old source: 269 (old source says ²⁶⁹Rf beta-stable, but Zagrebaev et al. predict β⁻); 273 (old source must have a typo, it lists this mass for both Db and Sg; I assigned it to Sg because three beta-stable nuclides for odd Z seem implausible); 283 (old source predicts ²⁸³Ds, but Zagrebaev et al. predict β⁺, so is probably Mt); 287 (old source predicts ²⁸⁷Rg, Zagrebaev et al. predict β⁺); 289 (old source predicts ²⁸⁹Cn; Zagrebaev et al. appear to assign it to ²⁸⁹Rg as only beta-stable); 293 (old source gives it to ²⁹³Nh, but Zagrebaev et al. say it has no beta-stable isotope). So the 288 and 294 anomalies you mention might be a result of this being a synthesis of two sources – although who knows, similar things have happened within known nuclides as you also say. Though maybe 294 is real if Nh really has no beta-stable isotopes, since the examples you give are both surrounding an element where this disaster happens (Tc and Pm)? But as you can see, they're mostly in agreement along this range, which is why I thought the exercise to reconcile them was worth trying. :) Double sharp (talk) 12:59, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. since Zagrebaev et al. do not consider double-beta IIRC (it's only a thing in the old source, where double-beta-unstable nuclides are written smaller), I decided to use some common sense and edit the double-beta directions for 282 and 288 above in this exercise. I'm leaving 294, since either way it will be an anomaly and this way it keeps consistency with the similar failures at Tc and Pm (and now Nh I guess). Double sharp (talk) 17:12, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In short: assuming that Lr and Mt each have a beta-stable isotope and thay Sg, Bh and Hs each have at most two odd-mass beta-stable isotopes, Zagrebaev et al.'s prediction gives the odd-mass beta-stable nuclides as ^259,261Md, ²⁶³No, ²⁶⁵Lr, ²⁶⁷Rf, ²⁶⁹Db, ²⁷¹Db/Sg, ²⁷³Sg, ²⁷⁵Sg/Bh, ²⁷⁷Bh, ²⁷⁹Bh/Hs, ²⁸¹Hs, ²⁸³Mt, ^285,287Ds, ²⁸⁹Rg, ^291,293Cn, ^295,297Fl. Personally I would expect ²⁷¹Db and ²⁷⁹Hs to be beta-stable, and that ²⁷⁵Sg and ²⁷⁵Bh are close in energy. 129.104.241.214 (talk) 23:36, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a remark: I believe that ⁴⁸Ca, ⁹⁶Zr and ¹⁴⁸Gd should not be shown in this table :) 129.104.241.214 (talk) 23:41, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done as you asked. I hadn't updated this one since it's only on the talk page. :) Double sharp (talk) 12:54, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You know what, I may as well give the KTUY chart for this region too. Sorry ComplexRational for pasting it from your sandbox. :)

²⁵⁷Fm (α)	²⁵⁸Cf (SF) → ²⁵⁸Fm (SF) ← ²⁵⁸No (SF)	²⁵⁹Md (SF)	²⁶⁰Fm (SF) → ²⁶⁰No (SF)	²⁶¹Md (α)	²⁶²Fm (SF) → ²⁶²No (SF)	²⁶³No (α)	²⁶⁴No (SF) ← ²⁶⁴Rf (SF)
²⁶⁵No (SF)	²⁶⁶No (SF) ← ²⁶⁶Rf (SF)	²⁶⁷Lr (SF)	²⁶⁸No (SF) → ²⁶⁸Rf (SF)	²⁶⁹Rf (SF)	²⁷⁰Rf (SF) ← ²⁷⁰Sg (SF)	²⁷¹Rf (SF)	²⁷²Rf (SF) ← ²⁷²Sg (SF)
²⁷³Db (SF)	²⁷⁴Rf (SF) → ²⁷⁴Sg (SF) ← ²⁷⁴Hs (SF)	²⁷⁵Sg (SF)	²⁷⁶Rf (SF) → ²⁷⁶Sg (SF) ← ²⁷⁶Hs (SF)	²⁷⁷Sg (SF)	²⁷⁸Rf (SF) → ²⁷⁸Sg (SF) ← ²⁷⁸Hs (SF)	²⁷⁹Bh (SF)	²⁸⁰Sg (SF) → ²⁸⁰Hs (SF)
²⁸¹Hs (SF)	²⁸²Sg (SF) → ²⁸²Hs (SF) ← ²⁸²Ds (SF)	²⁸³Hs (SF)	²⁸⁴Hs (SF) ← ²⁸⁴Ds (SF)	²⁸⁵Mt (α)	²⁸⁶Hs (SF) → ²⁸⁶Ds (SF)	²⁸⁷Ds (α)	²⁸⁸Hs (SF) → ²⁸⁸Ds (SF) ← ²⁸⁸Cn (α)
²⁸⁹Ds (α)	²⁹⁰Ds (α) ← ²⁹⁰Cn (α)	²⁹¹Rg (α)	²⁹²Ds (α) → ²⁹²Cn (α) ← ²⁹²Fl (α)	²⁹³Cn (α)	²⁹⁴Ds (α) → ²⁹⁴Cn (α) ← ²⁹⁴Fl (α)	²⁹⁵Nh (α)	²⁹⁶Cn (α) → ²⁹⁶Fl (α)
²⁹⁷Nh (α)	²⁹⁸Fl (α)	²⁹⁹Fl (α)	³⁰⁰Fl (α) ← ³⁰⁰Lv (α)	³⁰¹Mc (α)	³⁰²Fl (α) → ³⁰²Lv (α) ← ³⁰²Og (α)	³⁰³Lv (α)	³⁰⁴Fl (SF) → ³⁰⁴Lv (α) ← ³⁰⁴Og (α)
³⁰⁵Lv (α)	³⁰⁶Fl (SF) → ³⁰⁶Lv (SF) ← ³⁰⁶Og (α)	³⁰⁷Ts (α)	³⁰⁸Fl (SF) → ³⁰⁸Lv (SF) ← ³⁰⁸Og (SF)	³⁰⁹Ts (SF)	³¹⁰Lv (SF) → ³¹⁰Og (SF)	³¹¹Og (SF)	³¹²Lv (SF) → ³¹²Og (SF)
³¹³Og (SF)	³¹⁴Lv (SF) → ³¹⁴Og (SF) ← ³¹⁴120 (SF)	³¹⁵Og (SF)	³¹⁶Og (SF) ← ³¹⁶120 (SF)	³¹⁷119 (SF)	³¹⁸Og (SF) → ³¹⁸120 (SF)	³¹⁹120 (SF)	³²⁰Og (SF) → ³²⁰120 (SF) ← ³²⁰122 (SF)

It goes on past that, but I stopped it at the known elements because it then starts predicting weirdness that never happened before (e.g. quadruple beta decay without double beta decay at mass 344). Oh well, extrapolation is perilous anyway. :) To add on to these comments incidentally: that's a whole lot of neutron-rich nuclides for Z = 114. I guess Dy is similar on the proton-rich side, but with one fewer. Perhaps this assumes 114 is a magic number? In which case I would take this with a grain of salt since experiments suggest it might not be one. Double sharp (talk) 13:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Just realised from the chart that KTUY fails to predict the failures at Tc and Pm. Double sharp (talk) 11:51, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhere on the Internet I have seen a prediction that differs from the table above (not KTUY, but the other one) for 268 (Rf and Sg), 274 (Rf, Sg, Hs), 278 (Sg and Hs), 280 (Sg and Hs), 283 (Hs), 284 (Hs and Ds), 286 (Hs and Ds), 290 (Ds and Cn), 296 (Cn and Fl), 298 (Fl), 301 (Mc), 302 (Fl and Lv), 303 (Mc), 304 (Fl, Lv, Og), 305 (Lv), and 307 (Ts). I've forgotten the URL, though. AFAIR it was in a PDF file of some Italian conference. Burzuchius (talk) 19:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you find the URL again someday! Did it go beyond 312? It's interesting that the failure at Nh is reproduced by another model, although three beta-stable isotopes of Mc (299, 301, 303) would certainly be unprecedented for an odd element. Double sharp (talk) 20:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIR the last nuclide in the chart was ³⁰⁸Og. Burzuchius (talk) 21:17, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, this prediction would imply that Sg (268, 270, 272-276, 278, 280), Hs (276, 278-284, 286), Fl (292, 294-298, 300, 302, 304) each have 9 beta-stable isotopes, and Mt has none? 129.104.241.214 (talk) 02:33, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that adding two more lines (up to 336) introduces not too many strange things; it becomes a disaster from ³⁴²128 on. 129.104.241.214 (talk) 22:36, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed the KTUV chart predicting great instability of superheavy nuclides except for those around the doubly-magic nuclides. The page "Total half-lives" indicates that all beta-stable isotopes of elements 119-125, 137-145 lie outside the area of stability. What a pity. 129.104.241.214 (talk) 06:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A pity indeed, but not unexpected once the N = 184 shell closure is passed. Double sharp (talk) 15:29, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Undiscovered isotopes listed

Some undiscovered isotopes such as ²⁶¹No and ²⁶⁹Db are listed in the table and other mass numbers such as A = 262 may have some undiscovered beta-stable isotopes. There are some we already know of, such as ²⁵⁹Md and ²⁶²No, but that is certainly not the entire data set up to A = 270. As far as predictions, various sources (see below) do not completely agree on one set of beta-stable nuclides; thus, I feel the inclusion of unknown isotopes is speculative and not merited (or there may be no reason to stop at 270 if predictions may be included).

Sources: [2] [3] [4]

ComplexRational (talk) 19:54, 22 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also, because of this inconsistency, should we remove snippets such as "²⁸⁷Rg will be most stable against beta-decay" (in fact, neither source above predicts 287 in this case anyway) from SHE articles? ComplexRational (talk) 20:05, 22 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ComplexRational: I have no problem with inserting predictions, as long as it is made clear that they are, in fact, predictions. A separate table seems like a good idea. I would agree with removing those snippets from the superheavy element articles. Double sharp (talk) 02:36, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Double sharp: I actually did draft a table in one of my sandboxes based on the third link I provided above. Though it does not match as well with the known beta-stability line as the Moller mass table, the latter one exhibits some unusual properties before A = 300 and contradicts some statements made earlier in the article. The one I drafted could supposedly also go beyond A = 340, though the same problem appears (e.g. it lists four beta-stable isotopes of E127 including one odd-odd and two beta-stable isobars with some odd A). As for the other articles, I will go ahead and remove them, especially since three sources give three different beta-stability lines. ComplexRational (talk) 23:37, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Done as proposed for 109-111 (though it appears problematic in recent changes, why is that?) ComplexRational (talk) 23:43, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ComplexRational: I don't think it is that much of an issue that the unusual properties appear after A = 340. After all, we have never gotten anywhere near that mass number. If weird nuclear shapes are expected in that region, why not weird beta-stability lines? ^_^ And I should like to at least reach the double-magic nucleus ³⁵⁴126. Double sharp (talk) 03:11, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ComplexRational: Well, I've extended your table as far as it could go (I hope I haven't made any silly mistakes transcribing it). I do agree that most of it shouldn't go in the article because the predictions differ and all contain some weirdness, but I think a general discussion of where the beta stability line is likely to go beyond what we know would be germane, along with a brief mention that weird things happen eventually in all models (perhaps displaying things up to the doubly-magic ³⁵⁴126 would serve as a good enough illustration of what kind of weirdness we mean). So we could upload one of the charts from the presentations, and then noting that ²⁹⁸Fl, ³⁵⁴126, ⁴⁷²164, ⁶¹⁶210, and ⁷⁹⁸274 ought to be doubly-magic beta-stable nuclides. I'd also be OK with just cutting things down to A = 340 and then adding this general discussion; after all, while the details differ, there seems to be agreement on the general location of the beta-stability line. Double sharp (talk) 04:58, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Double sharp: Displaying up to ³⁵⁴126 is a good idea, though I'm unsure how to explain, for example, how A = 347, 349 have two beta-stable nuclides even though the article says (albeit briefly) that only one beta-stable nuclide can exist for odd A, and the unusual situation for A = 348 (triple beta decay, how might the two isotopes in between behave?) that contradicts the concept of "mass parabolas" outlined in various sources. That's far from the worst, thankfully. I also feel that uploading the decay mode chart up to Z = 149 and N = 256, both charts up to Z = 175, and the two images showing the shell gaps for proton and neutron numbers would provide some much needed illustrations in this and other articles. I'm not entirely sure about copyrights, though one of the images (the first one) already pops up in a Google search. Would you be able to assist me in navigating copyright rules? ComplexRational (talk) 01:46, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ComplexRational: I would think that the copyright status would be rather like that of File:Island of Stability derived from Zagrebaev.png; as it is data graphed in the most obvious way possible (a chart of nuclides), it isn't eligible for copyright. Thanks for adding the info up to A = 404, BTW; I'd like to know where you found that, as I missed it looking through the slides! (⁴⁷²164 is also labelled rather badly in the slides, as the line pointing to it seems to end at ⁴⁷⁰162 instead.) I wonder if all of this strangeness is because of the nearby doubly-magic ³⁵⁴126 nuclide that the beta stability line seems to be a bit distorted around (it is on the extreme neutron-rich end of the beta-stability line; in fact it looks something like a much more extreme ⁴⁸Ca); the parabolas may well not look very much like parabolas around there. (Note that the line seems to look much more normal around ⁴⁷²164, though, so this bit of OR speculation may be completely wrong.) BTW, neutrinoless quadruple beta decay has been suggested as a possible decay mode (and it has even been searched for in ¹⁵⁰Nd, although the half-life should be incredibly long), so I'm prepared for more exotica. ^_^ Double sharp (talk) 04:55, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Double sharp: The chart on page 13 goes up to Z = 149 and N = 256. That type of explanation (and a citation of the quadruple beta decay paper possibly elsewhere as well) should work fine. I think you are right about the copyrights for the basic charts (simple geometric shapes), but I do not know about the one with the shell gaps. ComplexRational (talk) 00:23, 6 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ComplexRational: I think that one would have the same copyright status as File:Next proton shell.svg (i.e. common-property information; graphing shells by energy and pointing to gaps is also the most obvious way to show this information). Double sharp (talk) 13:13, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Double sharp: I uploaded one image, File:Nuclear chart from KTUY model.png; it meets the same criteria as File:Superheavy decay modes predicted.png. However, I'm still unsure about its inclusion and how to explain it without appearing to favor this source over other predictions. ComplexRational (talk) 00:03, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Use of the term isobar in the title

Perhaps this is a stupid question, but is isobar the best term to be using in the title in contrast to nuclide or having the title line of beta stability (mentioned as an alternative in the lead)? I understand the significance of isobars in the collective beta decay processes, and it would make sense to consider a set of isobars with a given mass number as one example of finding the corresponding stable nuclide(s) in the valley of stability. But does it still make sense in the context of all beta-stable nuclides? Not only do these nuclides not have the same mass number, but in most cases the mass number is unique in the set. If it is an appropriate term, are there reliable sources that use the term in that context? StuartH (talk) 04:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there may be room to mention the Mattauch isobar rule given we are talking about beta decay in the context of isobars. I was trying to remember the name of the rule and thought this might be a good article to include it. StuartH (talk) 05:33, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Non-observed beta decays

"Non-primordial ²⁴⁷Cm should undergo beta decay to ²⁴⁷Bk, but has also never been observed to do so." Why is this an important fact? This applies also to ²¹⁹Rn (and perhaps ²²²Rn) which is potentially capable of beta minus, and ¹⁴⁸Gd, ²¹³At, ²¹⁴At, ²¹³Rn, ²¹⁵Rn and many others that are potentially capable of beta plus? 129.104.241.214 (talk) 06:35, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is of interest mostly because ²⁴⁷Cm is so stable. I was quite surprised to learn that it was not the beta-stable isobar for 247. I don't object to it being removed if you think it's not suitable. :) Double sharp (talk) 14:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, replaced the sentence with "Among non-primordial nuclides, there are some other cases of theoretically possible but never-observed beta decay, notably including ²²²Rn and ²⁴⁷Cm (the most stable isotopes of their elements considering all decay modes)." Double sharp (talk) 05:30, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just a digression: I found it unbelievable that the very unstable nuclide ¹⁴⁶Sm has less energy than the stable ¹⁴⁶Nd. 129.104.241.214 (talk) 09:16, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Probably because ¹⁴⁶Sm is two neutrons above the magic number. N = 84 has only one stable isotone, ¹⁴²Ce (and it is double-beta-unstable anyway). IIRC Z = 58 is semimagic, filling 1g_7/2 above the closed shell at Z = 50. So perhaps one could compare ¹⁴²Ce with ²¹⁰Pb, the least unstable N = 128 isotone. I think something similar will happen in the superheavy region as the beta-stability line passes N = 184.

The mismatch between the alpha-stable and beta-stable regions in the actinoids surprised me when I first thought about it, BTW. The most stable isotopes of Th, U, and Pu already suffer double beta decay! (Although we already see signs of it earlier, where only ²⁰⁴Hg is alpha-stable and beta-stable past Z = 66, the Q-values are too small to see the decay in experiments for now.) Double sharp (talk) 13:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! The cases for ²²²Rn and ²⁴⁷Cm are indeed astonishing. I would think that ¹⁴⁸Gd is equally surprising to have no decay mode of electron capture observed while being so proton-rich :) 129.104.241.214 (talk) 23:50, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed on ¹⁴⁸Gd. With it gone, I think only ¹⁵⁰Gd and ¹⁵⁴Dy are non-primordial among beta-stable nuclides up to 209, excluding 5 and 8 for obvious reasons. (By the way I find it a bit odd to count 5, mostly because there is no bound nuclide with mass 5 at all. For mass 8 we have the peculiar irony that ⁸He, ⁸Li, and ⁸B are all bound, but the actually beta-stable ⁸Be is not.) Double sharp (talk) 13:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that do ¹⁴⁸Gd need to be mentioned at the chart. NUBASE2020 mentions its possible double beta decay. Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 14:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I added a note about ¹⁴⁸Gd. It might well end up being a case like ⁴⁸Ca or ⁹⁶Zr: a beta decay that is energetically possible, but is so hindered that double beta decay happens first. Except that its alpha half-life is short, so good luck seeing either process. :( Double sharp (talk) 16:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

¹⁴⁶Sm is also non-primordial and beta stable. 129.104.241.214 (talk) 19:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, its half-life is long enough that tiny traces should persist from the Earth's formation. You are right though that it's not primordial in any useful sense :)

BTW, it's interesting that these form an alpha chain: ¹⁵⁴Dy → ¹⁵⁰Gd → ¹⁴⁶Sm → ¹⁴²Nd (stable at N = 82). Double sharp (talk) 02:32, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. the old Russian source I was mentioning above agrees with me about mass 5: it simply does not list anything at all. Double sharp (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

¹⁴⁸Gd is interesting mostly because its similar situation with ²²²Rn and ²⁴⁷Cm: it has reasonable alpha-decay half-life to study the single beta decay among non-primordial nuclides. I can't recall a fourth non-primordial nuclide with relatively long alpha half-life that is not beta-stable but with no beta decay observed.

Also, if ¹⁴⁸Gd were beta-stable, it would be the 9th (!) beta-stable isotopes of Gd. It is actually quite close, with a theoretical EC decay energy of 26.668 keV. Actually such a process is infeasible due to the high spin change (0⁺ to 5^-), see here. 129.104.241.214 (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. While we're talking about weirdness in the nuclide charts: the situation of Ar and Ce is pretty unusual, as the only beta-stable nuclides are even-even. This is the only time that happens in the first 100 elements. Double sharp (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

These two elements are directly affected by the magic numbers 20 and 82 as neutron numbers. 129.104.241.214 (talk) 15:47, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shape of beta-stable isotop(n)es for even Z and N

I am posting the two tables in the hope that some new patterns would be discovered in the future. The upper-right numbers are the number of non-primordial isotop(n)es.

Note that the status of ²²²Rn is disputed (it has less mass then ²²²Fr in NUBASE but the difference falls within the error margin), so both situations are listed.

(⬛️=beta-stable, ◻️=not beta-stable)

Isotopes with even Z ≤ 96 (status of ²⁵⁸Cf not known for Z = 98)
Shape	Z
⬛️⬛️	4¹, 6
⬛️⬛️⬛️	2¹, 8, 10, 12, 14
⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️	18
⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️	16, 40
⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️	24, 26, 38, 82
⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️	22
⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️	58
⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️	20, 28, 30, 34, 74, 96⁵
⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️	72
⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️	84⁶
⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️	34, 46, 94⁶
⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️	36, 68, 78, 86⁶ (without ²²²Rn)
⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️	42, 44, 70, 76, 80, 88⁷, 90⁶, 92⁵
⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️	56
⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️	60
⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️	48, 52, 86⁷ (with ²²²Rn)
⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️	62¹
⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️	64¹
⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️	66¹
⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️	54
⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️	50

2 ~ 6 beta-stable isotopes: one with odd mass (except that He, Ti, Hf, Po have two, and Ar, Ce have none);

7 ~ 9 beta-stable isotopes: two with odd mass (except that Cd and Te only have one, but they each have an isotope with odd mass that is nearly beta-stable (¹¹³Cd and ¹²³Te));

10 beta-stable isotopes: three with odd mass.

Isotones with even N ≤ 158 (status of ²⁵⁸Cf, ²⁶¹Md and ²⁶⁴Rf not known for N = 160)
Shape	N
⬛️	0, 2
⬛️⬛️	4¹, 6, 8
⬛️◻️⬛️	66, 120, 128²
⬛️⬛️⬛️	10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 22, 24, 32, 34, 36, 38, 62, 100, 104, 110, 114, 118, 122, 124, 136³ (without ²²²Rn), 140³, 144³, 148³, 154³
⬛️◻️⬛️◻️⬛️	26, 54, 56, 68, 76, 80, 84¹, 86¹, 92, 96, 102, 106, 112, 116, 134³, 138³, 142², 152³, 156³
⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️	28, 30, 40, 42, 46, 52, 70, 72, 94, 98, 108, 126², 130⁴
⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️	44, 48, 60, 64, 132⁴, 136⁴ (with ²²²Rn), 146³, 150⁴, 158⁴
⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️	20
⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️	50, 58, 74, 78, 88¹, 90
⬛️◻️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️◻️⬛️	82

129.104.241.214 (talk) 21:41, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comparison of the three even-even nearly-beta-stable nuclides

Decay process	Z	N	Q_β (keV)	Spin change
⁴⁸Ca → ⁴⁸Sc	20	28	281.972	0⁺ → 6⁺ (ΔJ^Δπ = 6⁺, 6 forbidden non-unique)
⁹⁶Zr → ⁹⁶Nb	40	56	160.905	0⁺ → 6⁺ (ΔJ^Δπ = 6⁺, 6 forbidden non-unique)
¹⁴⁸Gd → ¹⁴⁸Eu	64	84	26.67	0⁺ → 5⁻ (ΔJ^Δπ = 5⁻, 5 forbidden non-unique)

I do not list ²²²Rn as being almost beta-stable, as its predicted 6.7×10⁴ − 2.4×10⁸ years β− half-life is far too short compared with a double beta decay; this is because the spin change 0⁺ → 2⁻ (ΔJ^Δπ = 2⁻, 1 forbidden unique) of ²²²Rn → ²²²Fr is not high. The estimated β− half-life of ²²²Rn is similar to the EC half-life of ²⁰²Tl and the β− half-life of ²⁵⁰Cm. 129.104.241.214 (talk) 04:42, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Zagrebaev et al. prediction does not indicate which of ²⁹⁴Cn and ²⁹⁴Fl has lower energy

Odd Z nuclides sandwiched by two beta-stable isotopes, its isobar with one less proton having the lowest energy: ³⁶Cl, ⁴⁰K, ⁶⁴Cu, ¹⁰⁸Ag, ¹⁵²Eu and ²⁴²Am.

Odd Z nuclides sandwiched by two beta-stable isotopes, its isobar with one more proton having the lowest energy: ⁷⁰Ga, ⁸⁰Br, ¹²²Sb, ¹⁹²Ir and ²⁰⁴Tl. If ²⁶¹Md is beta-stable then ²⁶⁰Md is also in this list.

Odd N nuclides sandwiched by two beta-stable isotones, its isobar with one less neutron having the lowest energy: ⁹⁸Tc and ¹⁴⁶Pm.

Odd N nuclides sandwiched by two beta-stable isotones, its isobar with one more neutron having the lowest energy: none known. (Given the Zagrebaev et al. prediction, it's a question that which of ²⁹⁴Cn and ²⁹⁴Fl has lower energy.) 129.104.241.214 (talk) 01:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Atomic/neutron numbers with an exceptional number of absolutely beta-stable isotop(n)es

An atomic number usually has at most 5 isotopes that have the lowest energies among their isobars;

Z = 50 has 7: ¹¹⁴Sn, ¹¹⁵Sn, ¹¹⁶Sn, ¹¹⁷Sn, ¹¹⁸Sn, ¹¹⁹Sn, ¹²⁰Sn;

Z = 62 has 6: ¹⁴⁶Sm (non primordial), ¹⁴⁷Sm, ¹⁴⁸Sm, ¹⁴⁹Sm, ¹⁵⁰Sm, ¹⁵²Sm.

A neutron number usually has at most 3 isotones that have the lowest energies among their isobars;

N = 20 has 4: ³⁶S, ³⁷Cl, ³⁸Ar, ³⁹K;

N = 82 has 5: ¹³⁸Ba, ¹³⁹La, ¹⁴⁰Ce, ¹⁴¹Pr, ¹⁴²Nd. 129.104.241.218 (talk) 02:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changes of beta-stable nuclides in fully ionized atoms

For example, ¹⁶³Dy is stable, but fully ionized ¹⁶³Dy⁶⁶⁺ will undergo beta decay into ¹⁶³Ho⁶⁶⁺,^[1] making ¹⁶³Ho replace ¹⁶³Dy as the beta-stable nuclide. Similar process is predicted to happen in many nuclides too.^[2] Do we need to mention these changes in the table? Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 14:10, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like that, if we could get a complete list. :) Double sharp (talk) 07:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to ^[2], there are 9 nuclides in 2≤A≤270 that can theoretically undergo bound state beta decay. They are ¹⁶³Dy, ¹⁹³Ir, ¹⁹⁴Au, ^202,205Tl, ²¹⁵At, ²²²Rn, ²⁴³Am, ²⁴⁶Bk. This make 8 new nuclides: ¹⁶³Ho, ¹⁹³Pt, ¹⁹⁴Hg, ^202,205Pb, ²¹⁵Rn, (²²²Fr is not beta-stable), ²⁴³Cm, ²⁴⁶Cf become the new beta-stable nuclides.--Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 00:50, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Then yes, I think we should discuss this. :) Double sharp (talk) 02:55, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nucleus hydro elemon: Also: consistently speaking, shouldn't we then also include the nuclides that can only decay by EC? When fully ionised, they also become beta-stable. Double sharp (talk) 07:57, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The list is here. After removing nuclear isomers and those can undergo β⁻ (e.g. ¹⁰⁰Tc), each A have only a nuclide except A=145,213. There are so many nuclides, thus many notes needed in that table…

Also, fully ionizing atoms will decrease the EC decay energy of nuclides. For example, the decay energy of ¹⁶³Ho decreases from 3 keV to negative, making it beta-stable. Similar things happen for other nuclides, and this leads to a problem. How do we supposed to know that do ¹⁴⁶Gd (decay energy 1032 keV, barely higher than threshold 1022 keV) and other similar nuclides will have their decay energy decreased enough until lower than 1022 keV? Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 10:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These 9 nuclides that undergo bound-state beta-decay (or 8? One may believe that ²²²Rn → ²²²Fr is already energetically allowed) should be mentioned in the section bound-state beta-decay, which is the main place that discusses this particular decay mode. 14.52.231.91 (talk) 00:42, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Jung, M.; et al. (1992). "First observation of bound-state β⁻ decay". Physical Review Letters. 69 (15): 2164–2167. Bibcode:1992PhRvL..69.2164J. doi:10.1103/PhysRevLett.69.2164. PMID 10046415.
^ ^a ^b Liu, Shuo; Gao, Chao; Xu, Chang (2021-08-02). "Investigation of bound state β − decay half-lives of bare atoms". Physical Review C. 104 (2). doi:10.1103/PhysRevC.104.024304. ISSN 2469-9985.

Definition of beta-stability

The article says "set of nuclides which cannot undergo beta decay", but its should be "set of nuclides in ground-state", or "set of nuclides which cannot undergo beta decay or internal transition", otherwise ^120mSn (2481.63 keV) should be counted as being beta-stable. It is not double-beta-stable, though. 14.52.231.91 (talk) 05:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are there other disputed isobaric pairs other than ²²²Rn/²²²Fr and ²⁵⁹Fm/²⁵⁹Md?

According to NUBASE:

Mass excess of ²²²Rn = 16372.0 ± 1.9 keV, mass excess of ²²²Fr = 16378 ± 7 keV, so standard deviation = 0.76σ;

Mass excess of ²⁵⁹Fm = 93700 ± 280 keV, mass excess of ²⁵⁹Md = 93560 ± 100 keV, so standard deviation = 0.37σ.

By the way, the reason that no beta decay is observed for ²⁴⁷Cm may be similar:

Mass excess of ²⁴⁷Cm = 65533 ± 4 keV, mass excess of 7/2⁺ state of ²⁴⁷Bk = (65490 ± 5 keV) + (40.81 ± 0.11 keV), so standard deviation = 0.24σ. 129.104.241.231 (talk) 10:56, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But the 7/2⁺ state of ²⁴⁷Bk would be an isomeric level, not the ground state, so theoretically beta decay from ²⁴⁷Cm to the ground state of ²⁴⁷Bk should still occur. However, such a decay would likely have a longer partial half-life due to the necessary change of multiple spin units (see beta decay transition).

Nevertheless, there is at least one known instance of an isomer of a beta-stable nuclide decaying away from beta stability, ^189mOs. It undergoes beta decay to ¹⁸⁹Ir, which in turn undergoes electron capture to the ground state of ¹⁸⁹Os. ^Complex/_Rational 14:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is perhaps also ^176mYb → ¹⁷⁶Lu. In both cases (^176mYb and ^189mOs) NUBASE2020 gives a question mark for β^- decay, which means that the decay mode has not been observed.

OK we're in a digression :) I meant to compare the ground states of isobaric pairs. 129.104.241.231 (talk) 14:47, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't understand: ^189mOs is given an mass excess of -38956.0 keV, and for ¹⁸⁹Ir it is -38450 keV? How could beta decay happen? 129.104.241.231 (talk) 14:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, it might be an error there. But at least for ^176mYb, the masses suggest that such a decay is possible.

I only mentioned this because in the paper you linked for ²⁴⁷Bk, the 7/2+ state was shown as an excited state, whereas the ground state is 3/2-, and the error bars for the ground state masses don't overlap. However, I haven't been able to find any papers describing a search for the beta decay of ²⁴⁷Cm or any asserting that it's impossible. Maybe you'll have better luck searching? ^Complex/_Rational 18:48, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, not at all, and that's why I mentioned it while going off-topic. 129.104.241.46 (talk) 06:14, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This JAERI report rather cursorily remarks that ²⁴⁷Bk is not easily produced by beta decay of ²⁴⁷Cm. So I suppose this counts as an acknowledgement that somebody thinks it should be possible, but it's still not a search. Double sharp (talk) 08:49, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mentioned ²⁴⁷Cm because, the transtion of ²⁴⁷Cm to the 7/2⁺ state of ²⁴⁷Bk would be 1^-, so should have a relatively short half-life even with a small Q-value. That's the reason I believe that the Q-value of this decay is actually negative or close to being so. 129.104.65.10 (talk) 09:32, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also ^87mSr → ⁸⁷Rb → ⁸⁷Sr. :) Double sharp (talk) 13:18, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are a lot of pairs of superheavy elements, due to lack of mass measurements. Known pairs listed in AME2020 II are:

²⁶²Rf/²⁶²Lr (Q_EC = 290(300)# keV)
²⁶⁷Db/²⁶⁷Rf (Q_EC = 570(690)# keV, note that isotopes of dubnium lists EC of ²⁶⁷Db, but it is question marked)
²⁶⁸Sg/²⁶⁸Db (Q_EC = −260(710)# keV, note that ²⁶⁸Sg is discovered after AME2020 II)
²⁷²Hs/²⁷²Bh (Q_EC = 220(740)# keV, note that ²⁷²Hs is discovered after AME2020 II)

AME2020 II also predicts ²⁶¹No/²⁶¹Md, ²⁶³Lr/²⁶³No, ^264,265Rf/^264,265Lr, ²⁶⁹Sg/²⁶⁹Db, ²⁷³Bh/²⁷³Sg, ^274–277Hs/^274–277Bh, ^278,280Ds/^278,280Mt, ^284,286Cn/^284,286Rg, and ^288,290Fl/^288,290Nh. All of these pairs, however, have at least an unknown or unconfirmed nuclide. Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 10:43, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes those nuclides have too large mass numbers, making precise mass measurements practically impossible. ²⁵⁹Fm undergoes SF and cannot be produced by ²⁵⁸Fm which undergoes SF as well, so whoops no chance. But I do think that a more precise measurement for ²²²Fr is possible. 129.104.65.10 (talk) 12:10, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another pair: it remains possible that ²⁶²Rf has lower energy than ²⁶²Lr, making ²⁶²Rf beta-stable... 129.104.241.99 (talk) 05:19, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And also (extremely unfortunately) ²⁵⁶Cf/²⁵⁶Es. These four pairs of disputed isobars pairs "become" notes d), e), f), and i) in the article. I have verified there are no other disputed pairs (thank goodness!). 129.104.241.180 (talk) 06:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nuclides close to beta-stable ones with odd mass numbers

For almost every odd number A, there is a nuclide with mass number A that has an energy difference lower than 919.4 keV (energy difference between ⁸³Rb and ⁸³Kr) than the unique beta-stable nuclide with the same mass number. The exceptions are A = 9 ~ 31, 43, 59, 61, 65, 89, 91, 117, 207.

A	The beta-stable nuclide with mass number A	Q_β- (keV) of the isobar with one less proton and one more neutron	Q_β+ (keV) of the isobar with one more proton and one less neutron	Note
43	⁴³Ca	~~1833.4 (⁴³K → ⁴³Ca)~~	~~2220.7 (⁴³Sc → ⁴³Ca)~~	Not unexpected as neither ⁴²Ar (N = 24) nor ⁴⁴Ti (N = 22) is beta-stable
59	⁵⁹Co	~~1565 (⁵⁹Fe → ⁵⁹Co)~~	1073 (⁵⁹Ni → ⁵⁹Co)	The first one is not unexpected as ⁶⁰Fe (Z = 26) is not beta-stable
61	⁶¹Ni	~~1323.7 (⁶¹Co → ⁶¹Ni)~~	~~2237.8 (⁶¹Cu → ⁶¹Ni)~~	Not unexpected as neither ⁶⁰Fe (N = 34) nor ⁶²Zn (N = 32) is beta-stable
65	⁶⁵Cu	~~2138.2 (⁶⁵Ni → ⁶⁵Cu)~~	1351.7 (⁶⁵Zn → ⁶⁵Cu)	The first one is not unexpected as neither ⁶³Ni nor ⁶⁶Ni (Z = 28) is beta-stable
89	⁸⁹Y	~~1500.4 (⁸⁹Sr → ⁸⁹Y)~~	~~2833 (⁸⁹Zr → ⁸⁹Y)~~	Not unexpected as neither ⁹⁰Sr (Z = 38) nor ⁸⁸Zr (Z = 40) is beta-stable
91	⁹¹Zr	~~1544.3 (⁹¹Y → ⁹¹Zr)~~	1258 (⁹¹Nb → ⁹¹Zr)	The first one is not unexpected as ⁹⁰Sr (N = 52) is not beta-stable
117	¹¹⁷Sn	~~1455 (¹¹⁷In → ¹¹⁷Sn)~~	~~1758.9 (¹¹⁷Sb → ¹¹⁷Sn)~~	Not unexpected as none of ¹¹⁵In (Z = 49), ¹¹⁹Sb (Z = 51), or ¹¹⁸Te (N = 66) is beta-stable
207	²⁰⁷Pb	~~1418 (²⁰⁷Tl → ²⁰⁷Pb)~~	~~2397.4 (²⁰⁷Bi → ²⁰⁷Pb)~~	Not unexpected as neither ²⁰⁶Hg (N = 126) nor ²⁰⁸Po (N = 124) is beta-stable

129.104.241.115 (talk) 23:48, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beta-stable nuclides around technetium and promethium

It is well-known that Tc and Pm have no beta-stable isotopes, which is to say, all their isotopes undergo beta decays to form adjecant elements. Let's draw the table of beta-stable nuclides around Tc (which have an even number of protons and 54, 55, or 56 neutrons), and those around Pm (which have an even number of protons and 84, 85, or 86 neutrons):

Beta-stable nuclides around Tc (actually ⁹⁶Zr is not stable to $\beta ^{-}$ )
	Z = 40	Z = 42	Z = 44	Z = 46
N = 54	⁹⁴Zr	⁹⁶Mo	⁹⁸Ru
N = 55		⁹⁷Mo	⁹⁹Ru
N = 56	⁹⁶Zr	⁹⁸Mo	¹⁰⁰Ru	¹⁰²Pd

Beta-stable nuclides around Pm (actually ¹⁴⁸Gd is not stable to $\beta ^{+}$ )
	Z = 58	Z = 60	Z = 62	Z = 64
N = 84	¹⁴²Ce	¹⁴⁴Nd	¹⁴⁶Sm	¹⁴⁸Gd
N = 85		¹⁴⁵Nd	¹⁴⁷Sm
N = 86		¹⁴⁶Nd	¹⁴⁸Sm	¹⁵⁰Gd

There are some patterns of symmetry here. ⁹⁶Zr is energetically unstable to $\beta ^{-}$ , but its half-life is too long (> 10²⁰ years) to be measured. The nuclide lying at the opposite corner of the second table, ¹⁴⁸Gd, has the same property: is energetically unstable to $\beta ^{+}$ , but the half-life of this process (which has a spin change of $5^{-}$ ) is way too long. (Note that ¹⁴⁸Gd does dacay via alpha emission to ¹⁴⁴Sm, having a short half-life of only 86.9 years. Its decay releases an energy of 3271.21 keV. For the sake of symmetry let's imagine ⁹⁶Zr absorbing an alpha particle to form ¹⁰⁰Mo; this process would release an energy of 3179.1 keV).

The nuclides in bold have the lowest energy among its isobars. There is one breaking of symmetry: the nuclides with lowest energy for A = 98 and A = 146 do not lie at opposite positions of the two tables. Yet, the energy differences of ⁹⁸Mo/⁹⁸Ru (112.75 keV) and ¹⁴⁶Nd/¹⁴⁶Sm (70.83 keV) are small. (Although those of ¹⁵²Sm/¹⁵²Gd (54.16 keV) and ¹⁶⁴Dy/¹⁶⁴Er (23.33 keV) are smaller).

The nuclide ⁹⁴Zr is stable to $\beta ^{-}$ decay by 901.7 keV, meaning that it is 901.7 keV lower in energy than ⁹⁴Nb. Likewise, the corresponding nuclide lying at the opposite corner of the second table, ¹⁵⁰Gd, is stable to $\beta ^{+}$ decay by 972 keV, meaning that it is 972 keV lower in energy than ¹⁵⁰Eu. 129.104.241.222 (talk) 00:30, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Jung, M.; et al. (1992). "First observation of bound-state β⁻ decay". Physical Review Letters. 69 (15): 2164–2167. Bibcode:1992PhRvL..69.2164J. doi:10.1103/PhysRevLett.69.2164. PMID 10046415.

[“Liu”-2] Liu, Shuo; Gao, Chao; Xu, Chang (2021-08-02). "Investigation of bound state β − decay half-lives of bare atoms". Physical Review C. 104 (2). doi:10.1103/PhysRevC.104.024304. ISSN 2469-9985.

[1]

[2]