Talk:Bessie Coleman

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Unregistered chat

, is there a Wikipedia standard for using or not using gender-based suffixes in Latin based words, like "aviator" and "aviatrix?" The tor/trix distinction seems dated and needlessly gender specific to me. Also should Bessie Coleman be referred to as a person of African American and Native American "descent," or as just an person who is African American and Native American? I believe that most people who are African American or Native American would describe themselves as African American or Native American rather than saying that they are of African American or Native American descent.Jkalm (talk) 06:35, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Bessie Coleman is a great woman! She was the first African American pilot! Woo-Hoo!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.155.214.60 (talk • contribs) 20:59, 22 January 2006

she is a great person —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.129.69.249 (talk • contribs) 21:21, 7 February 2006

Someone please clean this up. I don't know enough about her to do it or I would. The article seems to halt midway through sections, and I as a pilot fid it hard to believe a wrench magically siezed her engine after allowing her to climb to 500 feet AGL. Maybe I'll have somefree time to look into it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.3.12.238 (talk • contribs) 07:18, 7 February 2007

"Her friends and family did not consider the aircraft safe and implored her not to fly it." Such ominous after-the-fact comments, even if true, are gratuitously dramatic. For one thing, stunt flying is inherently dangerous. And for another, assuming the cause of the accident was a wrench carelessly left in the engine (i.e., FOD - foreign object damage), the condition of the aircraft itself was not relevant to the cause of the accident. FOD can cause accidents in even the safest aircraft. The two airfields mentioned are distinct and unrelated; Midway did not exist in any form until the year after Bessie's demonstration. The article should be changed to correctly identify the location of her performance.

Please list this wonderful woman as Bessie Elizabeth Coleman not Elizabeth Bessie Coleman. I wanted to find information about her and put in Bessie Coleman (her well known name) on the wikipedia and it came back as if nothing was listed about her. When I googled her I was led to the excellent Elizabeth Bessie Coleman article that every person can enjoy. Just a suggestion. Thank you.

Checkerboard Airdrome

The article states that "she returned to Chicago to deliver a stunning demonstration...at the Checkerboard Airdrome (now Chicago Midway Airport)." But the Checkerboard Airdrome (presumably Checkerboard Field, where Bessie Coleman is known to have done a demonstration in 1922), was, in fact, located at 1st Ave. and Roosevelt Road (the field is now gone, but a memorial commemorates its existence) some 8 miles to the northwest of Midway Airport, which is bordered by Cicero and Central Avenues to the east and west, respectively, and 55th and 63rd Streets to the north and south, respectively. Checkerboard was in Maywood, IL, west of the city, whereas Midway is on the city's south side.

76.171.245.211 (talk) 05:23, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

References

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BetacommandBot

I dont really kno much about her but I do understand it took her a while to get her pilot license and I respect how she never gave up on her dreams no matter how rude or disrespectful anyone was... FROM:Shaina Brown —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.182.171.73 (talk) 00:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Odd wording

"Bessie Coleman became not only the first African-American woman to earn an international aviation license from the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale, but the first African-American woman in the world to earn an aviation pilot's license." I suspect that the phrase after the comma should begin "but the first black woman in the world…" or "but the first woman of African descent in the world…". I suspect that was changed to "African-American woman" in a fit of political correctness that inappropriately narrowed the meaning. - Jmabel | Talk 06:35, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Fokker

Article also says she visited the Fokker Corporation in Germany in 1922, but wouldn't it have been in the Netherlands? If indeed Germany at that date, it at least deserves clarification, because it would not have been company headquarters. - Jmabel | Talk 06:42, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure? I'm no history buff, but weren't Fokkers made in Germany? Maybe F.C. just had a building there... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.159.147.197 (talk) 00:14, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Germany Yaaahhh!!!!! Maddiewuvsunicorns (talk) 14:17, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Comment

This is Incorrect information. The Dates Of September and Febuary in airshows are not 1922 they are 1923! By the history books this is totally incorrect! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freerah (talk • contribs) 17:03, 2 March 2009

Online biographies [1] and [2] say 1922. Gimmetrow 17:17, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction?

Hello everyone, I just noticed a possible contradiction within the article: in the beginning, it says that BC was "the first African-American to become an airplane pilot", but then later on it goes on to say that "no black US aviator would train her either", which implies that there were other black pilots in the US before her. Well, which is it? Was she the first black pilot in the world, or wasn't she? 76.21.37.87 (talk) 03:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

If you read the line it reads, "the first licensed airline pilot". The two key words in view are licensed and airline. Chances are there were other licensed African American pilots but perhaps none either trained as or received airline certification.--Morenooso (talk) 06:17, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

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Story tag at top of article

On the subject of Bessie Coleman, there is an insert at the top of the page with a sweep brush that complains that the information reads more like a story as opposed to "wikipedia's standard read". I must object! Stories can be Good! I was quite impressed with the details of Bessie Coleman's life and death so I implore you to NOT be so rigid and nit-picky when it comes to these articles as they relate to a form of story telling. Sometimes a STORY is needed to relate the truth in description. Thanks!

Best Regards! Dr. Ada Frazier Turner 13:29, 26 January 2017 (UTC)13:29, 26 January 2017 (UTC)13:29, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

"This article reads more like a story than an encyclopedia entry. To meet Wikipedia's quality standards and conform to the neutral point of view policy, please help to introduce a more formal style and remove any personally invested tone."

Orlando............. are we supposed to assume this is Orlando Florida? Are there any other Orlando's in the world?? Thank You..............

Hello, I concur. After reading about Bessie Coleman, I next read the Wiki entry regarding Amelia Earhart, as I was curious to see when Earhart received her pilot's license. Bessie Coleman's being the first, Earhart's the 16th. Fascinating. Incidentally, I found both articles read exactly the same, thus the claim that: "the information reads more like a story as opposed to "Wikipedia's standard read" seems meaningless or pointless, perhaps even absurd. (I appreciate reading the edits regarding the more detailed information re: where the airfield actually was, etc.) Sincerely, Joanne SmithJoanne Smith (talk) 16:04, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 January 2017

The text "The American military airfield in the north of Mannheim, Germany was also named in her honor." in the Honors section is incorrect and should be deleted. Coleman Army Airfield was named for Lieutenant Colonel Wilson D. Coleman: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Coleman_Army_Airfield CharlesMcD (talk) 14:23, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Done. WurmWoode^T 14:51, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 January 2017

hi im s.s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.109.134.235 (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 January 2017

67.233.174.204 (talk) 00:50, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 05:23, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 January 2017

Bessie Coleman was a human, at one point. Then she transformed and became a thing. Bankssnaps12 (talk) 03:58, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 05:56, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Bessie Coleman as character in a novel.

I'm not sure whether this of interest, but I've read two novels now in which Miss Coleman figured as a minor character. They are:

• The All-Girl Filling Station's Last Reunion by Fannie Flagg
• The Case of the Murdered Muckraker by Carola Dunn Susan Chambless (talk) 04:01, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

No Hollywood film bio about this inspiring woman?

Yep thought not! 81.141.33.196 (talk) 12:29, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Wording of lead

Isn't a better way to word the lead "Earning her pilot license from the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale on June 15, 1921, she became the first African-American woman and the first Native American to hold a pilot's license, as well as the black person to hold an international pilot's license." instead of "She was the first African-American woman and first Native-American to hold a pilot license. She earned her pilot license from the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale on June 15, 1921, and was the first black person to earn an international pilot's license" SecretName101 (talk) 17:21, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Are you missing a "first" before black in your proposal? Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:36, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

File:Bessie Coleman in 1923.jpg scheduled for POTD

Hello! This is to let editors know that the featured picture File:Bessie Coleman in 1923.jpg, which is used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for June 15, 2021. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2021-06-15. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:16, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Bessie Coleman (1892–1926) was a civil aviator. On June 15, 1921, she became the first African-American woman and the first Native American to earn an aviation pilot's license. Denied opportunity in the United States because of her race and sex, she had to go to France to learn to fly. Her career involved stunt flying and performing in air shows, and was cut short in 1926 when she was thrown from a plane in mid-air. Her death meant that her ambition to establish a school for young black aviators went unaccomplished, but her pioneering achievements served as an inspiration for a generation of African-American men and women.

Photograph credit: Unknown

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Not Native

The article repeatedly claims that she is Native American. There's no proof of this. There is no mention in the article of her being enrolled with any Native nation. Her father George Coleman isn't listed on the Dawes Rolls, nor are her paternal grandparents Frank and Frances, nor is she. There's no proof that she was Native, in fact, there's no proof that she had any Native ancestors at all. George is variously described as "three-quarters" Cherokee, Choctaw, or both. I've seen no documentation of this. Some sources even say that he was "likely" of either Cherokee or Choctaw descent, presumably because the claims of Coleman's Native heritage are too vaporous to be specified conclusively. George Coleman's only identifiable non-Black ancestors seem to have been white, through his mother Frances Louisa Coleman - a woman from St. Louis, Missouri with ancestors who immigrated from England, Switzerland, Alsace-Lorrain, and elsewhere. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:16, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

I have removed claims that she was Native American, as there has been no documentation that she was Native or a Native descendant. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 13:45, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

There is still an implication in the 'See also' section which lists "Mary Riddle, the second Native American woman to earn a pilot's license" while Riddle's page appropriately identifies her as the first. 2601:445:780:B550:9CB6:834A:9128:82AF (talk) 05:27, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I was curious about this change and so I looked for real sources and I found two government sources, one from ABC News, and another from the history channel clearly stating she is in fact of Native American descent and the first Native American to have earned a license. This should be corrected for accuracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtsalagi (talk • contribs) 00:50, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Bored and need sayings but you ain’t got

Add some saying she said that made her famouse and who she lived with is she alive today and if she married how many kids she had like that 170.161.253.242 (talk) 16:11, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Sayings were not what made her famous, but there is still a quote. The other info is there already too Strangerpete (talk) 18:27, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 January 2023

I wanted to add details under the Honors sectoin about Bessie Coleman being honoured as part of Mattel Toys' Inspiring Women series of Barbies with the Bessie Coleman Doll in January 2023. BrianSYYZ (talk) 17:41, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Please link to sources for this information. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:58, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Bessie Coleman

Where did she work at 50.4.88.70 (talk) 23:27, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

2A01:CB18:8020:5E00:5006:A52:8E60:C76B (talk) 16:57, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Aviatrix

Aviatrix is the correct term for her, rather than this anachronistic "aviator" business.

And she's a black woman. Not "Black", whatever that is. Wikipedia does not need racist spelling that is pushing somebody's weird private agenda.

99.229.34.174 (talk) 18:35, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

She was an African-American, lets leave it at that. --Malerooster (talk) 19:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

The citation actually mentions her being the first "black" male or female licensed pilot. Race vs ethnicity here. Thoughts? --Malerooster (talk) 19:16, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Bessie was not Native American nor did she self identify as one

In the 1880 US Census of Precinct 3, Cass, Texas, USA. George, his wife and children are all listed as Black. In the 1900 US Census of Justice Precinct 1, Ellis, Texas, again George, his wife and children which includes Bessie are all listed as Black. It wasn't until she moved to Chicago, that Bessie is listed as White and even Mulatto. So it is incorrect to list her as the first Native American Woman and or first self identified Native American woman. That takes away from the legit Native Americans like Mary Riddle who was enrolled Quinault. Even if she happen to self identify, that is a slippery slope. Just look at Rachel Dolezal who self identifies as White, Black and Native American but she is not Black nor Native American. She is White, both her parents are White. Like someone already mentioned too, none of Bessie's family is on any Tribal Roll either. NativeTruth23 (talk) 04:53, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Native American claim

@Yuchitown Tagging you in case you know more. The claim that she was Native American keeps being added to the article, but I don't see any proof of this. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 23:18, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Indigenous girl Are you aware of any sources proving that she was Native American? Thank you. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 23:19, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Ref #14: "She was the sixth of thirteen children born to Susan and George Coleman, four of whom did not survive childhood. Coleman's heritage has been identified as African American, but three of George Coleman's grandparents were full-blooded Native American, probably Choctaw or Cherokee." ref #19: "Her mother, Susan Coleman, was an African American maid, and her father George Coleman was a sharecropper of mixed Native American and African American descent." (#19, the National Women's History Museum, also states "the first woman of African American and Native American descent to earn her pilot’s license in the U.S.") #15 is also cited in early life but it's a book that isn't available online so I can't see what it says about it. Schazjmd (talk) 23:38, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Schazjmd "probably Choctaw or Cherokee" isn't promising. So we don't even know which exact tribe she might have been a descendant of? That's not good. Are there any sources from the Cherokee Nation or the Chickasaw Nation claiming her? I haven't found any. She and her father aren't listed on the Dawes Rolls. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:34, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

In this Wikipedia article, the first cited source for her father's heritage is Ganson 46, which cites a children's book: Rich 3. Rich discusses the father being from Indian Territory, but records show him being born in Texas 1854 with his father being born in Alabama in 1825 and his mom being born in Louisiana in 1821. The second book cited (Marck 67) says her father George was of Cherokee descent and moved from Waxahachie, Texas, to Indian Territory in 1901. I'm not finding an Cherokee-published source claiming her as Cherokee or Choctaw-published source claiming her as Choctaw. This article from 1983 describes her father as Cherokee, but other than that I'm not finding books or newspaper articles before 1989 describing her as being of Native descent. Well, this is certainly disappointing. Yuchitown (talk) 00:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Source written before the wikipedia article: Distinguished African Americans in Aviation and Space Science (2002), Bloomsbury Academic, pg 77: Bessie Coleman was born in Atlanta, Texas, on January 26, 1892, the 12th of 13 children born to Susan and George Coleman. Her father was three-quarters Choctaw Indian and one-quarter African American. It's also stated in a 1994 book, as well as a May 1977 article in Ebony and a 1987 article in The Witness. Those, along with the article cites and other sources (National Air and Space Museum, New York Times) that identify her as having Native American ancestry, seem to support inclusion as representing the consensus of reliable sources.

That is, unless there are reliable sources that question or challenge that point? Schazjmd (talk) 17:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

@Schazjmd Many people claim to have Native American heritage based on family stories. Are there even any sources where Coleman herself claimed to have Native American heritage? I haven't seen any. These seem to be claims made by others. Where is a statement from a Cherokee or Choctaw tribe that she was enrolled, descended, or otherwise affiliated with their tribe? I have seen none. I recommend that you read the North American Indigenous WikiProject's guidelines for determining Indigenous identity, particularly the section on reliable sources. As far as I can tell, every source used for this article is a non-Native source. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mtsalagi Tagging you so you can read the above comment about reliable sourcing for Indigenous identity. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Typo in lead (lede???) section

"She was the first African-American woman and first self-identified Native American to hold a pilot license.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9] and is the earliest known Black person to earn an international pilot's license.[10]"

I'd remove that "." that someone has put before all those numbers - if only I could.

Dear article-lockers... is anyone of you here and cares?

 Done Thanks. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:21, 24 May 2024 (UTC)