Talk:Belle Époque

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Periodization and Location

The article read, "La Belle Époque, or 'beautiful era', was a period in France's history that began during the late 19th century and lasted until World War I. Occurring at the midpoint of the Third Republic, the Belle Époque..."

I changed this to reflect that fact that the Belle Époque is considered by many people to have occurred throughout Europe, not just in France. In fact, the German-language Wikipedia article on the La Belle Époque refers to it as a European phenomenon. So, the Germans see it as relevant to them, as well.

As for the periodization, the German-language Wikipedia article on the the Belle Époque specifically states that it lasted from 1885 to 1914. One might also consider the starting point to be around 1890, which would coincide with the Fin de siècle. Either way, it would not be really at the midpoint of the Third Republic. The Third Republic lasted from 1871 to 1940. If the Belle Époque ended in 1914, and if it represents the true middle years of the Third Republic, it would have begun in 1896, and that's too late. So, I changed the phrasing slightly to reflect that it began after the initial years of the French Third Republic, but I didn't state expressly when. Poldy Bloom 07:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Belle Époque as an era of peace, prosperity, and cultural innovation took place all over Europe, not just in France. This article should reflect the European-ness of the era. After all, it talks about Belle Époque art and music in countries other than France. For information that focuses on solely on military, political, and economic affairs in France, please refer to or edit French Third Republic. Poldy Bloom 04:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at the "Belle Epoque" Wikipedia articles in other languages, including French and German, the introductions do not specifically state the Belle Epoque was a French phenomenon. The characteristics of the Belle Epoque were seen throughout Europe, or at least western and central Europe. Moreover, the article claimed that the Belle Epoque was an era in social history, before going on to discuss the politics, science, and technology of the Europe. Therefore, I have changed the introduction to read that it was simply an era in European history. In fact, it would be nice if someone would expand or revise the article to bring in places such as Germany, Austria-Hungary, Belgium, Spain, and Italy, where the Belle Epoque also took place with many of the same characteristics as in France (rise of the bourgeoisie, class conflict, new inventions, domestic political stability, etc.). Poldy Bloom (talk) 18:32, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Factual inaccuracies

Someone wrote, "In the Belle Epoque, France was one of the first countries in the world to let all men have the right to vote, in 1871. In 1905, it granted suffrage to Blacks, Asians, and Jews."

This is not correct. Universal suffrage (allowing all men to vote) was adopted in 1792 during the French Revolution and readopted by the Second Republic in 1848. Napoleon III re-readopted it in 1852. Church and state were formally, definitively separated in 1905. Race and religion did not determine voting status in pre-universal suffrage France. Wealth did. Jews could vote as early as 1791 if they met the property/tax qualifications. Free black Frenchmen could vote, as well. Poldy Bloom 04:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your edits were an improvement, and I think you were correct in your reversions, as well as your reasons. I have reverted information which focused only on France, not including the more inclusive interpretation of 'Belle Epoque'--also, much of the reverted info was suspect at best. JNW 02:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion

I have greatly expanded the article and reorganized it. The reorganization was undertaken so that the sub-sections reflected the topics mentioned in the introduction (namely politics and the arts broadly construed) and so that the article read more like a proper encyclopedia article, not just a collection of random factoids and tidbits. Also, I do not know much about the history of technology/science. So, if someone else does, please enhance the sub-section on "Science and technology." Poldy Bloom 05:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Science and technology as they affected the Belle Epoque:" Industrial fortunes. Railroads and leisure. Effects of refrigeration technology on restaurants and cuisine. There are many other articles that cover these years with other emphases: "Advances in medicine" does not belong here: "Class structure and perceptions of careers" does belong here. The subject is Belle Époque.--Wetman (talk) 00:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nationalism

The emphasis on class-based identities I think ignores the important rising nationalism in this period, which would come to play an important role in this period. This was an important factor in the artistic and intellectual world, especially in areas with restive minorities such as Britain (the Irish), and the Austro-Hungarian Empire (a whole lot of peoples). Other intellectual fashions popular in this time should be addressed I think, such as the rise of nihilism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.82.227.246 (talk) 14:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not every aspect of 1870-1914 is part of the rich and easy lifestyle implioed by "Belle Époque" experienced by the governing classes. This is not the article for industrialization of coal-mining, for example, except insofar as cheap coal fueled greenhouses, etc etc.--Wetman (talk) 16:29, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Income tax?

Someone added a serious non-NPOV line to the article: "new technologies improved lives that were unclouded by income tax." I have removed that. Poldy Bloom (talk) 05:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A perfectly serious line to be sure: it is of the essence of the Belle Epoque that the lives of those classes that experienced it as "belle" were not troubled with the budgetary restraints that came with income tax. "NPOV" is so commonly invoked without comprehending what a "violation of a neutral point-of-view" would entail, that many fastidious editors avoid it. "Unclouded" is simply evocative of the "good feeling" that made the eopoque belle. I have cleaned up references to Expressionism and other post-WWI phenomena and added some more essential features to the Belle Époque overview. Poldy Bloom's contributions of text are welcomed.--Wetman (talk) 11:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am not going to get into an edit war with you. However...
1) Much of the material you reinserted does not really belong in the introduction. Perhaps it could be apportioned to the sections germane to the issues discussed.
2) Your choice of the word "unclouded" does imply that an income tax would have been deleterious to their lifestyle. Moreover, if it was good for the upper class, would it not have been good for the middle and lower class? Would technologies not also have improved non-upper-class lives? For example, the discoveries of Robert Koch surely benefited everyone.
3) You keep making reference to the upper class, but historians regard this era as the great era of the bourgeoisie, broadly construed.
4) You snidely make reference to contributions (in quotes) as if I have added noting to article. If you look at the article's history, I actually wrote most of the main text (admittedly several years ago). Poldy Bloom (talk) 03:50, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How could there be an "edit war"? There must be various Wikipedia articles that cover this time-frame in Europe. Belle Époque doesn't cover many aspects of the period, like the Temperance movement or anti-Semitism and the Dreyfus affair. A Wikipedia introduction should give a summary of the article: why not expand the brief opening statements instead of wanting to contract the text? The idea that "if it was good for the upper class, would it not have been good for the middle and lower class" doesn't logically follow, unless "trickle-down" Reaganomics is being anachronistically applied: working-class issues, Socialism, Louis Pasteur, Robert Koch, coal-mine safety etc etc. aren't part of the Belle Époque. Your section on middle class lifestyle in the Belle Époque would be a good addition; though "reduction in infant mortality", which is undeniably part of the whole picture, would be beside the point, etc. D'you see that "Belle Époque" is just an aspect of social and cultural history, one that doesn't cover the whole period?--Wetman (talk) 14:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article is definitely non-NPOV, and makes a lot of opinion-based statements. Anyone want to clean this up? ?--Enchantedeve —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.171.20.22 (talk) 09:27, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Needs editing

The second sentence at the beginning of the article doesn't make sense. Needs punctuation? Missing a word? Octavia22 (talk) 21:10, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

American Automobiles

Pardon my ignorance, but why, of the 5 images in this article, two are pictures of American automobiles? I would have thought that European models would have been more appropriate. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.191.12 (talk) 21:11, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Picture of Metz

I removed the picture of Metz. The article as it is now is focused on the Belle Époque as a historical period of France, and not generally of Europe. It is strange to include a picture of a city which at that time was part of Germany, and not of France. If the article is rewritten to cover the period in Europe in general, then the picture is welcome as a description of the architectural development at that time in Germany. Levimanthys (talk) 12:34, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is Wik schizoid?

Some-one not familiar with this period of history reading this article would see a totally different world than some-one reading the Wik article on the Fin de siècle, even though the latter is temporally incorporated in the former. Can the two articles be co-ordinated some-how and then linked?Kdammers (talk) 06:45, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

the Opera

Large public buildings such as the Opéra Garnier devoted enormous spaces to interior designs as Art Nouveau show places. Really? I've always understood the Opera to be the epitome of Second-Empire style; the building as a whole was completed a couple of decades before the heyday of Art Nouveau. Were some of the building's interior spaces remodeled in the era of Art Nouveau? 206.208.105.129 (talk) 17:51, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Income Inequality

This was a period of extreme income inequality. The book Capital in the Twenty-First Century highlights this as a particularly acute period of income inequality. This seems important to balance the rather rosy picture painted by the current article. --Lbeaumont (talk) 02:24, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Auditing Map Accuracy

The "Flag Map of the World in 1900" included in this article shows an independent Panama. Panama was not independent from Colombia until 1903. Also, the Brazilian flag used is AT THE EARLIEST from 1960, which you can tell because it has more than 22 stars, since it includes the star below the "M" in "Ordem E Progresso". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:4400:1E70:CDF0:3384:EE8C:D016 (talk) 03:35, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]