Talk:Becky Sharp/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Usernameunique (talk · contribs) 08:00, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

the novel follows Sharp's efforts at snaring a wealthy, but simple, husband, and being outdone by fate in her attempt. — This isn't explicitly said in the body, and could go at the end of "Context."

1. [1] Added

It is possible that Thackeray's model for the Becky Sharp character was the 18th-century French courtesan, Madame du Barry. — Seems like undue weight given to one theory, given it's treatment in the body.

2. [2] Tweaked to highlight the numerous possibilities.

has been the subject of much scholarly debate on issues ranging from 19th-century social history, Victorian fashions, female psychology and gendered fiction. — This could perhaps be expanded upon.

Absloutely. Any ideas how?!

Context

Thackeray wished to demonstrate — Full name and a link, and possibly a brief description, should be used to introduce Thackeray in the body

3. [3] This better?

the impossibility of Victorian England's closely held belief that it was impossible — This is confusing (the impossibility of an impossibility), can you rephrase?

4. [4] That was classic Serial Number :) Although, if you liked that, you'll love [5] "...provides full confirmation of what the scanty evidence of as to the character of his earlier career suggests, that Ros was a man of just and equitable temperament" :D

it is a "vast satirical panorama of materialist society" — What's the "it." Vanity Fair? If so you should say so, because it hasn't been introduced yet.

5. [6] Indeed.

Waterloo Campaign — Link? What's the relevance?

6. [7] Linked. Well, the action moves to Belgium (Fabrique Belgique, as they say) and takes the characters with it.

strictly speaking the book's heroine is Amelia Sedley ... Amelia and Rebecca are joint-main characters — So one is the heroine but they're both main characters?

7. [8] Yes, that was rather BS... hopefully less so now.

Amelia and Rebecca — Is there a convention for calling the latter Rebecca instead of Becky?

8. [9] No, in fact the opposite; adjusted.

Who's John Frazee?

9. [10] No idea, except that he's written stuff on Victoriana (see [11]). Now redlinked...just in case.

Character

who are at least middle- if not upperclass — What about Sharp?

10. [12] Clarified.

her ability to create herself into something she naturally is not. — What does this mean?

11. [13] Recreates her circumstances, more like it. Tweaked.

This section is fairly high level to someone (like me) who hasn't read the book. Perhaps some examples, or a brief plot summary in "Context," would help.

12. [14] You and me both, brother. Still waiting for the Cliffsnotes to arrive. In the meantime, I've added a plot section/synopsis. This has now added nearly 4K bytes and almost duplicates the "Career" section. Hmmm.

What does the block quotation have to do with this section?

13. [15] Very little; I've moved it to where that woman was talking.

Origins, appearance and personality

says Meade — You introduce/link her down below, when it should be done up here.

14. [16] Linked.

Career

hers is a traditional Burneyean entrance to the adult world — What does this mean?

15. [17] Bloody good question; hopefully clarified now.

he is by now unable to do. — Why?

16. [18] Misread the source; he can, just comes to depend on her.

he proposes marriage — So was he planning on bigamy, divorce, or death?

17. [19] Now widowed. As you point out above, much of this is possibly already addressed by the synopsis.

the only character who ever sees through her well-to-do English facade is Old Dobbin — Who is he? This clause also seems a bit out of place, coming as it does after a clause about Sharp being honest about her background.

18. [20] I must be missing something here; but I added "now". Better?

Sharpe's debut is at the 15 June Brussels Ball — Who's funding her lifestyle at this point?

Not sure I'm afraid; probably another one for York notes. Stand by.

she had no means of transport — To the ball, or from?

19. [21] Recast.

Jos wants to propose to Sharp — At what point in the narrative?

20. [22] Time indicated.

Rawdon and Sharp have secretly wed — Who's Rawdon? This is the first mention of him. Do you mean Pitt Crowley? Rawdon is called Rawdon Crawley later on. Also, why was the marriage secret?

21. [23] Hopefully the synopsis covers this; but I've removed "secretly" because it wasn't.

a prop for Sharp to demonstrate her marital bliss. — How could she do that if the marriage was a secret?

See above;no longer so.

the King, suggests Thackeray, had created the very conditions which allowed Sharp to flourish. — How so?

22. [24] Ah. I've added a refnote explaining that it was the King who led by example throughout the decadance of the Regency era in which Becky-types...flourished.

Her marriage to Rawdon Crawley is a major step up the social ladder, although, comments Bloom, this "ladder was a magic one and could withdraw itself at will". — As formatted, this is a one-sentence paragraph. Is it supposed to be the lead sentence of the following paragraph?

23. [25] Visual editor fucking me over, but you're dead right, cheers.

When her husband is arrested and held for a £100 debt — Is her husband's financial downfall a major part of the plot, or was it simply that Sharp wasn't able to find a husband with enough cash that an invoice coming due couldn't potentially send him to debtors' prison?

Not sure; will adjust when SparkNotes arrives.

Sharp was not sleeping with Steyne, however; rather, she reckoned that she needed what she calls a "moral sheepdog", and that that was to be Steyne. — This is confusing: being caught in flagrante suggests being found in bed with someone else, but it doesn't seem that that happened here. What was the compromising situation in which she was found?

24. [26] A degree of WP:SYNTH there; she was playing cards or something. Removed the latin swank.

she was further ingratiating herself with him — "him" refers to Rawdon here, but I think you mean Steyne.

25. [27] Absolutely, many thanks.

This is an example, says Rosemarie Bodenheimer, of how the Victorian novelist used London location — "a London location"? "the London location"?

26. [28] plural, done.

How exactly Sharp falls from grace isn't said. Did Rawdon assume she was sleeping with Steyne, and throw her out?

Hopefully now covered by synopsis?

Love life

Sharp clearly has sexual misadventures — Why misadventures?

27. [29] Quite! Changed to "adventures" (and unlinked), but I'm wondering if it sounds a little bit twee now?

Critical

Victorian literature during this period — What period?

28. [30] Clarified.

Tobias Smollett's grotesques. — Smollett's grotesques in particular, or Smollett-esque grotesques?

29. [31] Nicked "Smollet-esque", cheers!

a radically different worls". — World?

30. [32] Spot on, cheers.

More personally, suggests Henkle, to Thackeray himself she represented the power of the artist and the writer. — How so?

31. [33] Added explanaition.

Real-life models

The three paragraphs seesaw from 'no direct role model' to 'possible direct role models,' and then back to 'no direct role model.'

32. [34] H'mm; think I've tweaked that to show that there were possibly both...

her memoirs went through over 30 editions — Editions, or printings?

Both, it seems: The exact words used by the source are "30 editions were printed", which is an odd way of putting it, but...

Dramatic portrayals

In 1899, Langdon Mitchell's production toured the United States — A production of Vanity Fair, presumably?

33. [35] Clarified.

her marriage scene was filmed in Boston's Louisburg Square, representing Russell Square in London. — Seems pretty random.

Yeees...well, I dunno, human interest (although not sure to whom; residents of Boston and Russell Square, I guess), and it was a bit of detail regarding a production about which I had very little else to say. Also, Russell Square of the book is mentioned elsewhere, so...

Little won the Best Actress in a Drama Series category in the following year's Biarritz International Television Festival as well as a BAFTA nomination for Best Actress in a Leading Role as well. — For this role, presumably?

34. [36] Added.

What's the criteria for including/not including a production?

35, [37] Err, whether I noticed or not I think...and didn't notice the blooming Navbox which lists them all! Have now added and sourced all the other productions/actresses.

See also

Is the purported correlation between Sharp and Becky (slang) strong enough to justify talking about it in the article?

36. [38] No mate, it's total bollocks. Sacked. (It's the only remnant of the article as I found it.)

Overall

It's a good article, but it takes the reader's knowledge of Vanity Fair somewhat for granted. I think "Career" should be placed earlier—perhaps before "Character"—because it provides much needed context for the analysis. It provides the plot summary, without which the analysis of Sharp does not make much sense without having read the book. This would also resolve some of my comments about "Character."

Indeed, added (see #12. above, of course).

There are a lot of quotations, which would make attributing all of them somewhat clunky, but it's unclear why you choose to attribute some of them but not others in-text.

Indeed!

Second read

Per the second "overall" point above, perhaps worth considering on a case-by-case basis whether to introduce Amy Montz,John P. Frazee/Jennifer Hedgecock/Harold Bloom/E. M. Forster/Roger B. Henkle/Ulrich Knoepflmacher/Michael Schmidt/Kathryn Hughes/Margaret Atwood/F. M. Salter/Patricia Marks/Marion Meade/Gordon Ray/etc. Maybe not worth doing, though, if it would just be 50 permutations of "according to the writer [name of writer]".
Opening in 1814 in London — I reworded this, but just want to make sure that the fair is also in 1814 London.
"who is now poor." — Well yes, you've just said she's bankrupt. Do you mean that George's father forbids the marriage because she is poor?
"Becky embarrasses Amelia" — How?
"she has secretly married his son" — Still getting caught up by this secret thing. Why secret, and how secret if she has a son?
"Jos dies in suspicious circumstances" — Details? Not because it's relevant, just because it sounds interesting.
"opera-girl" — Is the hyphen in the original?
There's some inconsistency in present/past tense when you have "writes [commentator]"/"suggested [commentator]" and the like.
"Sharp finishes her days self-styling herself the Lady Crawley, a demi-mondaine living in penury[4] in Curzon Street." — But didn't you say in "Synopsis" that she finished her days respectably middle class?
"Becky as Circe, who turned Odysseus's men into swine." — Is this discussed anywhere?
"Clarke was originally ... annuity from the King." — Back-to-back sentences with a semicolon, might consider revising.
Ref #12 not needed, that should go on the image's page instead.

Looks like another well-written and thoroughly-researched article, Serial Number 54129. Straight to AfD it is! --Usernameunique (talk) 08:00, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Usernameunique for the thoroughness of the review and the kind words. I've addressed/responded to all your points (to a greater or lesser degree, of course)—check it. Hope yer well! ——SerialNumber54129 19:12, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Usernameunique: Err. What Gives?! ——SerialNumber54129 18:08, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What, does Becky Sharp feel she isn't getting the attention she deserves? The horror. Or perhaps it's just that a candy ass is reviewing this one. Serial Number 43018, I'll try to finish this up by early this week. --Usernameunique (talk) 18:50, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Taking a hundred days would certainly be apt :p cheers Usernamecandybuttocks ;) ——SerialNumber54129 19:00, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Serial Number 54129, more stuff for you to plod through, above. And then a third round to follow, and then a fourth, and then a... Gonna keep this going until you give up! (If you thought this review was long, by the way... Template:Did you know nominations/Dermophis donaldtrumpi --Usernameunique (talk) 02:23, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think 3 weeks is too bad...try 3 months! ;) ——SerialNumber54129 17:41, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't talking about the length of time, but rather the length of the review: 179,684 bytes! --Usernameunique (talk) 19:34, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ha! True O King, I see what you mean—this entire article is less than 59K! Incidentally, I've attended to most of your later points, but just can't be arsed to fill in my responses :) bit late here. Talking of...sorry about "candyass" though :) ——SerialNumber54129 20:17, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good, Serial Number 54129. The pass is yours; you should also consider nominating this for the gold star. Oh ... and as I'm sure you could tell, I was mortally offended by the comment. The nerve! --Usernameunique (talk) 23:18, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]