Talk:Bayt Thul

Palestine Mid‑importance

	Palestine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Further information

The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Bayt Thul. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100527231854/http://www.alnakba.org/villages/jerusalem/thul.htm to http://www.alnakba.org/villages/jerusalem/thul.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:20, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Socin and Hartman??

Ok, so Frantzman writes on p.165 about this place "that M. Hartmann found 26 people there in 1871 and Albert Socin found 36 in 1870", cited to "Ben-Arieh, Yehoshua. The Sanjak of Jerusalem in the 1870s.‘ in Cathedra, 36. Jerusalem: Yad Yitzhak Ben Zvi. 1985. page 86." Alas, that is in Hebrew, however, both the original German sources are now on the net. See User:Huldra/Socin

First, from my understanding of German, both Hartmann and Socin examined the same census, didn't they? Secondly, I cannot find Bayt Thul in Socin, though I do find it in Hartmann, see User:Huldra/Socin#p._146, though where Ben-Arieh/Frantzman gets the 26 people from, is anyones guess. And Frantzman does not refer to any other Hartmann or Socin sources, than the two I have mentioned on User:Huldra/Socin.

We really need someone with an understanding of Hebrew (to examine the Ben-Arieh source), and someone with a better understanding than me of German (to examine the original Hartmann and Socin sources), Huldra (talk) 23:53, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra: Maybe User:El_C can help. The article of Ben-Arieh is here. (The title has 1870s, not 1872s.) It is chock full of information that I wish I could read. Bayt Thul is #35 on page 86 (p14 of the PDF file). From right to left, the column headings are: Locality name, serial number, Socin (divided into men and total), Schick 1896, Census 1922, Socin 1870, Hartman 1871, Guerin, size (divided into Socin and PEF), Hutteroth id code, Toledano serial number. Socin 1870 and Hartman 1871 are for "number of houses". Footnotes on Bayt Thul: #2: Socin called it Bet Illo; #3: Schick gave a number but it is clearly a mistake; #4: something about Hutteroth that I can't read.

Perhaps some Hutteroth localities not identified by Hutteroth are identified in this article? The very similar but not identical numbers for 1870 and 1871 indicate they weren't taken from exactly the same documents (recall that Ottoman censuses were more like continuous registrations that were periodically collated). Zero^talk 09:35, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for spotting the 1870s mistake, fixed now, and for finding the Ben-Arieh source. The Ben-Arieh source gives 9 under 1871, and that fits well with Hartmann, 1883, p. 118: Bayt Thul 9 houses. He writes 7 for 1870 data, and that could fit with the same number in Socin, p. 146 (that is 34), except that that looked like Beitillu, as noted in the above footnote #2.

Kark, p. 258 writes about Bayt Thul that 7 houses were inhabited by about 50 people in 1870….sourced to Ben-Arieh, "Settlement and Population".

And the Toledano serial number must be taken from his Hebrew article about liwa Jerusalem; the numbers do not fit with the English version one.

First of all we need to understand Hartmann vs Socin. I have been struggling with the German on Hartmann, 1883, pp. 102-105. Besides the fact that Hartman is clearly very little impressed by the accuracy of the Ottoman officials, I cannot quite see the relationship between the Hartmann numbers, and the Socin numbers for 1870. User:Jayen466, do you have time to help?

And yeah, there might be places not identified in Hütteroth and Abdulfattah, just earlier this year one was found, see Talk:Umm al-Faraj. Huldra (talk) 20:49, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]