Talk:Battle of Wesenberg (1268)

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A fact from Battle of Wesenberg (1268) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 24 November 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Russian victory in the Battle of Rakovor in 1268 put an end to the attacks of the Teutonic Knights on Russia for thirty years?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2006/November.

Wikipedia

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on February 18, 2018 and February 18, 2021.

Verst

The term verst is obsolete. I'd suggest that using km or miles (or preferably both) would be more helpful for the reader.Larry Dunn 16:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is used in primary sources describing the battle and as such it can't be obsolete. It is not applied to, say, measure the distance between New York and Vladivostok. If it was, then it would be obsolete. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 17:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Verst is a legitimate measurement, although it is not frequently used anymore. --Ineffable3000 19:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And one verst is basically 1 kilometer. --Ineffable3000 20:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is English-language wikipedia. The term verst has no meaning to people in the Commonwealth or the USA, which is the majority of the world's English speakers. Remember that the purpose of Wikipedia is to inform, and usage of terms with no relevance to readers should be avoided. A cubit is also a valid unit of measurement, but it makes no sense to use it in modern parlance. The fact that it is used in primary sources just underlines the fact that it is obsolete and not relevant to most English Wiki readers -- the battle was fought over seven hundred years ago, in Eastern Europe. Whether you are talking about the distance from Moscow to New York, or the distance a Russian militiaman marched with his spear in hand, the distance should still make sense to the reader. Larry Dunn 14:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is quite pro-Russian. Nothing about massacres, nothing about bishop Alexander of Tartu, who was killed in this battle. Nothing about St Mary's Chapel.

Russian victory. Cessation of German and Danish aggression for 30 years

This battle was held in Estonian soil. Is this not an Russian aggression?

Is that not called Battle of Maholm?

Belongs this site to Russia today?

No.--90.190.139.232 (talk) 17:09, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any precedent of calling this battle the "Battle of Rakovor" outside of the Russian historical literature? Rakvere was a foreign territory for Russia. Why should that Russian name be used? In the article Rakvere that battle is called "Battle of Maholm" according to the Baltic German historiography. Maholm is the German name of a parish (Estonian Mahu). Now its center is Viru-Nigula. Andres 14:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite

I agree with some previous posts, since you can tell that the article has been written by a Russian nationalist, it needs ti be rewritten from a serious military history point of view. --Termer (talk) 14:51, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Going to post some secondary sources here for rewriting the article.--Termer (talk) 15:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[1] [2]

Maybe it was written by a Russian nationalist, but I have edited it, and I am not a Russian nationalist. If you see improvements that can be made in the article, and can cite your sources, then by all means do so. Larry Dunn (talk) 20:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! The sources are and were right above your post. the article has very low priority, I'll get to it as time permits. The main thing, there is no need to point out how decisive victory or loss it was to anybody according to any chronicles. Since it was an ongoing warfare and according to the sources the Germans attacked Pskov right after this battle. So the only thing that needs to happen here, just list the facts and avoid any commentaries and it's going to be fine. --Termer (talk) 21:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
PS. I replaced the note with "rewrite". Anybody who has time to look into it, above are 2 books available online that have chapters about the battle and can be used as sources. I'll get to it by myself as soon as I can.--Termer (talk) 03:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am rewriting the intro, and certain other sections to reflect the conflicting nature of the sources, and adding an extra paragraph about the other side of the story, based on the Livlandische Rheimchronik (Livonian Rhymed Chronicle) of ca. 1290 and William Urban's Military history of the Teutonic Order. I am not inclined to trust either of the sources linked above, as the first is from 1900: badly out of date, and the second is not a scholarly source. Unfortunately Eric Christiansen does not mention the battle in his survey of the Northern Crusades. I'm also going to put a citation needed note by the claim about Daumantas being praised in Livonian sources, since he is not even mentioned by name in the Rheimchronik. It's possible he is mentioned in Hermann of Wartberge's Chronicon Livoniae, but I don't have access to that at the moment. I am also adding Alexander of Dorpat to the commanders of the Livonian side, since the Rheimchronik claims Otto of Lutterberg was not present at the battle. Toward a rewrite, perhaps we could divide the article into two sections, one based on Russian accounts, one based on Livonian? Squorn (talk) 19:09, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Troop numbers are most likely grossly exaggerated

I am no historian but I assume that the troop numbers are absolutely overestimated. No human settlement in medieval Livonia and neighboring countries had more than 10.000 inhabitants at the time and the region was only thinly settled. The Livonian Order at its height had only a few hundred knights. And several 10.000 fighters shall have participated in this battle? This reminds me of descriptions of the battles in the Persian Wars by Herodotus who estimated the strength of Xerxes' army at one million men while we today know that it were certainly less than 100,000. --Furfur (talk) 21:07, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know on main page

Why is it written in the Did You Know section of the main page that Russia won the battle, when the article itself claimed that Livonia was the victor? Mimihitam (talk) 08:24, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]