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Removed sentence

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I have removed a sentence unsupported by the source:

"According to interrogated Hizbullah militant the vicinity of the village was used for rocket attacks against Israel"

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html?pagewanted=print

In the source that the NYT is referring to the following is claimed:

"The testimony of Muhammad Abd al-Hamid Srour
20. According to Muhammad Abd al-Hamid Srour, an operative in Hezbollah’s anti-tank unit from the village of Aita al-Shaab, Hezbollah’s arms and ammunition were stored in the villagers’ houses. He said that the house owners were not always aware of the precise contents of Hezbollah’s storehouses (that is, Hezbollah turned the residents into a living shield without their knowledge or consent, which constitutes a warcrime).
21. He related that Hezbollah’s official centers in the village such as the culture center” or the “administrative center” held no arms and ammunition since, in Hezbollah’s assessment, such places could become targets for the IDF’s attacks.
22. According to Muhammad Srour, most of the village residents left as the fighting began. During the fighting, anti-tank missiles were smuggled into the village inside backpacks carried by operatives, dressed in civilian clothes and riding a motorcycle with a white flag. It should be noted that the use of a white flag to grant immunity to combat activity or to pose for a civilian or humanitarian element constitutes a war crime."

The testimony concerns the smuggling of anti-tank missiles for the defence of the town and not of Katyusha rockets for attacking Israel.

Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 22:14, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, there is no claims in the NYT article that "the vicinity of the village was used for rocket attacks against Israel". It only mentions one guy "transporting missiles... in and around the southern village of Aita al Shaab" and another guy who "set up a rocket-firing position on the front porch of a house on the outskirts of Aita al Shaab". The NYT does not elaborate any further. There is no mention in the article about these rockets/missiles ever being used.
In the original source - quoted above - it is however made clear that both individuals where active in a Hizbullah anti-tank missile unit and not a Katyusha launching unit.
I therefore once again remove the paragraph.Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 15:33, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive editing

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I am reverting recent disruptive edits made by Avaya1 (talk) on this and several other Wikipedia articles.

Avaya1 made 5 massive changes in 7 minutes to 2006 Lebanon War, then spent 2 minutes making changes on Operation Change of Direction 11, 1 minute on Battle of Bint Jbeil and a further 2 minutes on Battle of Ayta ash-Shab.

The changes were whole-sale deletions of all the additions made after a particular date, selected for unclear reasons. Some of the changes he deleted had been agreed upon by other editors in talk page discussions. A lot of well-sourced material has been deleted. In the case of Battle of Bint Jbeil meticulously added references has been deleted and replaced with [citation needed]. None of the changes were explained in summaries or in talkpages. Avaya1 has previously made intermittent contributions to 2006 Lebanon War but has not previously been involved in the editing of the other articles.

Any well-sourced addition to this article is welcome as are deletions if they are clearly explained in the talkpage. I return the page to where it was before Avaya1's deletions.

Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 21:44, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Editing by Shrike (talk)

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Why do you remove the list of 28 named Israeli fatalities (based on official Israeli sources) then reduce the total Israeli casualties to 7 based on a single source: Arkin. Which is clearly wrong. Most of the clashes that led to the 28 IDF fatalities are anyhow mentioned in the article, with proper sources (often Israeli newspapers).

Why do you add clearly misleading information?

Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 17:37, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I edited according to the sources. Arkin that is used in the article quite clearly stated the number of the dead also you restored the names of the dead in circumvention of WP:NOTMEMORIAL and added various unsourced statements and weasel words.I am tagging the article for numerous problems--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 19:28, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Having a list of fatalities is standard procedure in Wikipedia. It doesn't violate WP:NOTMEMORIAL. I'm using official Israeli sources and that counts to 28 killed, not 7 as Arkin claims. If you read Arkin's own text you may notice that he himself mentions 8 IDF fatalities. His other discrepancies are easily checked against the list in the article. If you insist on keeping 7 IDF killed in the battle please indicate which 21 of the 28 named soldiers in the list who did not die in the battle.
When I corrected this fault you tagged the article for lack of factual accuracy and neutrality! Arkin's numbers are not reliable. He also claims that 12 civilians were killed and that the IDF estimate for HA fatalities in the battle was 40 although he provides no sources for these numbers and they do not tally with any other sources.
Weasel words? Unsourced statements? Where? You have to be more specific.
Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It does please explain how those persons are notable except their death in the battle(and I am not sure that they died in the battle at all as it not clear from the sources).If Arkin is not reliable why it used in the article at all? .You counting is WP:OR we should follow what sources say.I will tag the problematic pieces in the article.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 04:08, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also per WP:CLAIM we shouldn't use this loaded term in the article please fix it.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 04:45, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A. You have tagged the article with disputed neutrality and factual accuracy but have failed to explain any reason for doing so.

Please explain your actions or remove the tags.

B. You want to change words like “fighter” or “guerilla” for the armed elements of Hizbullah to “militant”. You claim that the former terms contradict WP:TERROR. But it’s actually the other way around. The former terms are more neutral and are in fact used by most western media, including Israeli (see below under point C4). “Militant” is a highly value-laden term and usually negatively so.

Though militants is widely used in the media I would agree to fighter as general term.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 17:06, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

C. You have tagged four paragraphs with ”citation needed” although they have all reliable and often multiple sources.

1) “28 killed (IDF claim)”

See next point

2) “The IDF admitted 28 killed (of which five were officers) in 33 days of fighting in and around the town (including five at the border on the July 12, thirteen inside the town and ten in the nearby village of Dibil).”

We have multiple sources – all supplied in the article – for each of the eight clashes in the area of Ayta ash-Sha’b (including nearby Dibil) involving a total 28 IDF fatalities. Of course, the original source for all these secondary sources is the IDF itself.

The list of named IDF fatalities is based on the overall war fatality list published in the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs "Israel-Hizbullah conflict: Victims of rocket attacks and IDF casualties". All but four of these are explicitly linked to this area in the MFA list. The exceptions being the last four killed on Aug 13. But we know from multiple other sources (i e Arkin, Haaretz) that four IDF tank soldiers were killed by a missile in Ayta that day.

Secondly, if you bother to read through the main text of the article you may notice that it mentions each of the eight separate clashes were IDF suffered its 28 fatalities. All are covered by other reliable sources than the MFA list (mainly Israeli newspapers).

If you seriously doubt that any of these clashes or fatalities ever occurred (“I am not sure that they died in the battle at all”) please specify exactly which of these clashes/deaths you dispute happened as described by the sources.

So how come Arkin only comes up with 7 IDF fatalities? First, Arkin’s calculation covers only three of the eight deadly clashes in this area that were reported by the IDF and other sources. Secondly, if you read through Arkin’s own text you may notice that his own detailed numbers actually adds up to 8, not 7 (3 + 1 + 4).

If Arkin ia not reliable why we should use it all? If we decide that is WP:RS then we should use it and don't selectively pick information.Moreover why we should include battles in nearby areas we should only include battle inside the town including battle in Dibil and other battles is WP:OR and WP:UNDUE--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 17:06, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

3) “Most of the other civilian fatalities seem to have occurred before the ground war started”

According to a reliable Lebanese source (providing a list of names) only 7 civilians were killed in this battle (other less reliable sources quote higher numbers without providing any verifiable details or original sources).

The article already has a source (HRW) claiming that 6 civilians were killed Aug. 19-21. Ground fighting inside the town started July 31. That leaves room for only one more civilian fatality after the ground war started.

Please specify what other source do you need.

This your WP:OR if you want to include this statement.Your source should state it.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 17:06, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

4) “Less than a dozen mainly local fighters killed (Western, Israeli and Lebanese sources”

This sentence is a summary of 7 (seven!) different sources (two Lebanese, one British, three American and one Israeli) making very consistent claims:

  • Lebanese newspaper as-Safir published a list of names containing 11 local and non-local fighters who were killed in Ayta during the 2006 war, as well as that of an Ayta resident who died elsewhere.
  • The webpage of the municipality of Ayta ash-Sha’b recently published a poster with the names and pictures of the 9 local "martyrs" of Ayta ash-Sha’b (including the individual who did not die in Ayta).
  • British newspaper Socialist Worker claimed that eight “local fighters” had died.
  • Washington Post claimed that “eight Hezbollah guerrillas” had died in the battle.
  • McClatchy Newspapers claimed that nine “fighters” had died in the battle.
  • Nir Rosen in Mother Jones claimed that nine “local fighters” were killed.
  • Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth claimed that “around ten residents of the town were killed fighting in battles, in addition to other fighters who arrived at the scene.”

The small discrepancy (8-11) between all these sources is probably explained by whether you count only locals killed in Ayta battle (8) or total Ayta losses in the war (including fatalities in other battles) (9) or total losses in the Ayta battle itself (including outsiders) (11).

You have previously argued that the formulation of Yedioth is consistent with a total of 40 HA fatalities (10 local and 30 from outside). This may be true from a technical point of view. But it is pure conjecture to assume this. I don’t understand why a center-right Israeli newspaper would like to cover up this fact. I have no doubt that if there really was an Israeli estimate of 40 HA fatalities, Yedioth would have used it. Remember that Arkin is completely alone with this claim and provides no sources. Israeli semi-official Ehrlich’s study is completely agnostic as to the number of HA fatalities in Ayta.

We might know how local fighters died but we have no way to know how many not local died.The sources that your brought talks only about local the question of how many non local.So we should remove mainly
Also the phrase (Western, Israeli and Lebanese sources”) is not backed by any source its your own [[WP:OR[[
  • * *

Shrike, I ask you to address all the points raised in this post or remove your tags and cease with your disruptive editing.

Please read WP:NPA--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 17:06, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

PS For links to different sources cited above please see notes in article.

Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 08:35, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Defensive Hezbollah victory, tactical Israeli defeat

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If Israel failed to capture the town then we can conclude that the battle of Ayta ash-Shab was indeed a defensive Hezbollah victory and a tactical Israeli defeat/failure.

VendixDM (talk) 23:20, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 March 2023

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There are wrong things in the page Davidreznov (talk) 09:50, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. 💜  melecie  talk - 10:19, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Result

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Why does it say "Israel failed to capture the town" instead of "Hezbollah victory"? Those things are synonymous, and the latter is more widely used. Haskko (talk) 14:40, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

IDF fatalities

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Reenem (talk)

Israel's war on Lebanon 2006 cannot be subdivided into a number of battles and the total IDF casualties then neatly distributed between these. Dozens of IDF fatalities would remain unaccounted for.

In other cases the distribution is unclear. For example, Hizbullah fighters fired Sagger missiles from positions in Bint Jbeil, killing between 3-5 IDF soldiers in Maroun al-Ras. Should they be included in the article about Maroun al-Ras or Bint Jbeil? They are now included in the former article.

Two questions about the Ayta article:

1) IDF casualties in Dibil

Dibil is a small Christian village less than four kilometers from Ayta ash-Shaab. Hizbullah, apparently, had no forces there, throughout the war. So there never was a ”battle of Dibil”. The IDF forces in Dibil were attacked from the rear, by Hizbullah forces deployed in Ayta al-Sha'b, when trying to bypass the town. Lebanese accounts are explicit on this point. The official Israeli Winograd final report confirm this. Therefore the Dibil fatalities should be included in this article.

2) IDF casualties in the cross-border raid

The border clash can be divided into two parts. First, a Hizbullah cross-border raid into Israel in which 5 IDF soldiers were killed/captured. Second, an armored IDF attack into Lebanon in which 5 IDF soldiers were killed.

The aim of this latter attack was to conquer a Hizbullah post outside Ayta and take control of the exit roads from the town, as a preparation for it's capture. But the lead Merkava tank ran over a remote-controlled bomb, which exploded, killing 4 crew members. A fifth soldier was killed in the efforts to retrieve the remains of the killed tankers. Further attacks on Ayta was then temporarily suspended. But this was the first clash in the battle of Ayta ash-Sha'b.

So 5 IDF soldiers were killed/captured in a Hizbullah cross-border attack on Israel and another 5 Israelis were killed in an IDF cross-border attack into Lebanon. I believe that the second group belongs to the article about the Battle of Ayta ash-Shab. They were killed in Lebanon, not in Israel, in the Khallat al-Warda olive grove, belonging to Ayta municipality. In preparation for the conquest of Ayta.

I have no problem with the five soldiers killed in Lebanon being included in both articles. But if this is not acceptable, I believe they should be included in the Ayta article alone.

Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 00:35, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hizbullah casualties in Ayta

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Reenem (talk)

As far as we know, Hizbullah lost no fighters in the 2006 Hezbollah cross-border raid. And no Hizbullah fighter was killed in Dibil. Since they did not fight there. They killed the IDF soldiers from 4 kilometers away. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 01:07, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dibil really not part of the battle of Ayta ash-Sha'b?

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This is how the Final Winograd Commission described the "incident":

"572 The incident in Dibil (1:30 p.m.)

Two anti-tank missiles were fired from Ayta ash-Sha'b towards a house in the village of Dibil where two “Fire Formation” [35th Paratrooper Brigade] companies were staying. The impact of the two missiles was fatal, and at the end of the incident there were nine dead and twenty-nine wounded."

Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 01:15, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This also happened in the Battle of Maroun al-Ras, in which missiles fired from Bint Jbeil struck Israeli positions and caused casualties. Under this logic Battle of Maroun al-Ras and Battle of Bint Jbeil need to be merged into one article.
If you insist on including it, then it should be made clear that Hezbollah losses in the Infoboxare for Ayta ash-Sha'b only whereas IDF losses are for all those villages. And we should not include the 2006 Hezbollah cross-border raid, as even if it happened in the vicinity of the village it can't really be considered part of the battle for the village. RM (Be my friend) 15:24, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have nothing against merging Maroun ar-Ras and Bint Jbeil article. At least for Hezballah, it really was one battle with the same forces. But the Bint Jbeil article is quite big as it is.
The Israeli response to the crossborder raid was an attempted attack on Ayta ash-Sha'b. It took place in the grove of Khallat Warda, which belongs to Ayta ash-Sha'b. Though it failed completely, it should be included in this article. But the orginal cross-border raid into Israel of course should be excluded.
After the failed IDF attack, daily shelling and bombing followed. The battle of Ayta ash-Sha'b really begun on 12/7. I am not aware of any indications that Hezballah suffered any casualties in the cross-border raid, or in the subsequent fighting. According to Lebanese sources, Hezballah suffered its first fatality in Ayta on 31 July.
The two missile attacks on IDF in Dibil should be included because the missiles were fired by Hezballah forces in Ayta ash-Shab.
I am not aware of any indications that Hezballah suffered any casualties in or around Dibil, throughout the war. There simply was no Battle of Dibil. Indeed, I doubt very much they even had any forces there, apart from maybe a spy or two.
Other Hezballah attacks further away from Ayta ash-Sha'b - for example the 17 Israeli soldiers who died in villages to the north during Operation Changing Direction 11 should of course not be included. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 21:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just one more thing. You complain that the IDF losses "are for all those villages" while Hezballah losses only are for Ayta ash-Sha'b. Not true, as you could have figured out easily by yourself.
Of the 28 IDF fatalities of the battle, 18 fell inside Ayta ash-Sha'bs municipal borders and 10 in nearby village of Dibil. No other villages are included in the count. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 23:52, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The point is the Maroun al-Ras and Bint Jbeil articles obviously won't be merged. These are considered separate battles despite some cross-participation by Hezbollah fighters in them firing missiles from one place to the other. I see no reason to include fighting for entirely separate villages in this article just because of occasional missile attacks.
The raid may have been in the vicinity of the village, but it can't really be considered part of it. The Hezbollah raid was to capture prisoners and the IDF was trying to recover them, any proximity to the village was incidental. No part of the raid should be included. RM (Be my friend) 07:21, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to Harel and Issacharof Ayta ash-Sha'b was the target of the IDF cross-border attack into Lebanon: [The IDF unit] "was ordered to capture a vantage point over... a nearby hill on the Lebanese side, site of a Hezbollah post, and to take control of the exit roads from the village" [of Ayta ash-Sha'b] (p.12). The proximity of point of attack and Ayta ash-Sha'b was thus not incidental.
Recovering the IDF prisoners was indeed the ultimate target of the attack. But that was also the ultimate target of the battle of itself, and of the whole Lebanon war. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 23:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When did the battle start?

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Ayta ash-Shab is located less than a kilometer from the Israeli border. Once you cross that border you are in the municipality of Ayta ash-Sha'b. The Ayta ash-Sha'b battle was a series of ultimately failed attempts by the IDF to conquer the town. In the beginning the Israeli aim was to prevent the transfer of the IDF prisoners further north. The first attempt to conquer Ayta was stopped in its tracks (litterly) only a couple of hundred meters into Lebanon.

A consensus was established here on Wikipedia, more than a decade ago, that 28 IDF soldiers were killed in this battle. As long as it was made clear the different circumstances of these fatalities:

“28 Israeli soldiers, five of them officers, were killed in 33 days of fighting in and around Áyta ash-Sha'b. Five of them died in the ill-fated rescue attempt at the border on 12 July and another ten were killed in the nearby village of Dibil.”

You claim that the battle for Ayta only commenced on July 31. Most other descriptions disagree.

Harel and Issascharof , for example, talks about the Ayta battle as “where the IDF thrashed about for four weeks and never succeeded in taking”. If you start the clock on July 31 you can't squeeze in four weeks before the cease-fire.

Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 01:50, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean "most" other descriptions? You found one line in one book to support your position, which states that the IDF "thrashed around" in the area but does not explicitly state that the battle was four weeks long. We already know that action in the vicinity of the area predates the IDF incursion but other sources I've found describe the actual battle as starting with the incursion in late July. This news article, the IDF's site stating "Operation Webs of Steel 4 begins in the town of Ayta ash-Shab, a bloody battle with dozens of IDF casualties." This source too. It's a shaky reference to use just one line in a book that can be interpreted multiple ways. The Hebrew, French, and Norwegian Wikipedia articles on this battle all date its beginning to 31 July, the Hebrew one is especially relevant as it seems to reflect the consensus in Israel on when the battle started. Only the Arabic one corroborates it as starting on 12 July but said article is a stub there. Moreover, if we were to go by your logic, we should put this battle in the 2006 Hezbollah cross-border raid article and describe it as part of the battle. I doubt such a change would stand because it would look bizarre.
Arkin's description of the first stages (13-30 July) of the “battle of Aiyt a-Shab” [his transcription] is based almost exclusively on internal IDF reports and Israeli media reports. From this description it is very hard to claim that the battle didn't start until 31 July. “Almost daily air raids... artillery attacks... attack helicopters... Israeli probes on the ground”. And please note, this description is almost identical to that given by Lebanese media accounts.
“Hezbollah’s 12 July incursion and kidnapping originated in Aiyt a-Shab (pop. 5,000), a hilltop village within sight of the Israeli border. Once hostilities began, Israeli intelligence estimated that about 30 squads of no more than 200 fighters operated from the village. […]
Targets in Aiyt a-Shab were hit almost daily with air raids or artillery attacks... and then additionally by attack helicopters operating in support of Israeli ground forces. Starting in the afternoon of 14 July, the IDF began warning residents via loudspeaker to evacuate the town...
For the next 96 hours, access roads and targets on the outskirts of the village were attacked, as the IDF sought to degrade Hezbollah’s capabilities and isolate the village from the outside world. There were some reports of Israeli probes on the ground around Aiyt a-Shab, but air and artillery strikes predominated through most of the month of July,...
On 31 July, IDF ground forces began their assault on the village, took up position in the area of the village...” (Arkin, p.86)
Israel bombed Bint Jbeil prior to the official start of the Battle of Bint Jbeil according to the article as well. Does this mean we should also date the battle to the first recorded bombing rather than the actual incursion?--RM (Be my friend) 17:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also another problem I've identified is the claim that Hezbollah's casualty toll at 11 is corroborated by Israeli media, which seems to be based on this archived Ynet article. The quote does not say 11 Hezbollah fighters were killed, it says about ten residents were killed in the battle in addition to other fighters who came from elsewhere. It's totally inappropriate to claim that Israeli media sources corroborate the claim of 11 Hezbollah fatalities. RM (Be my friend) 07:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please read the article before you start deleting. If you had read the article you would have noticed that your complaint is already taken care of. There are two versions about the number of Hizbullah fatalities in this battle. Not every detail can be handled in the box. You need to let the article answer the details. See article.
Lebanon: 8 locals + 3 outsiders = 11 dead Lebanese fighters. They have all been identified with published photo, name and place of birth.
This has *broadly* been confirmed by a number of Lebanese, International, and Israeli media.
YNET wrote that "around ten" residents were killed, "in addition to other fighters who arrived".
Israel: 40 Killed fighters.
This has not been confirmed by any other source. [If you allow some orignal reseach on a talk page: If IDF really killed 40 of 65 Hezbullah fighters present in the town (according to IDF estimate), then the whole Hizbullah resistance would have been broken. How many were wounded? Or run away? The inability of IDF to occupy Ayta then becomes incomprehensible].
Yediot "broadly" confirmed the Lebanese account.
As far as I know, no one confirmed the IDF claims. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 01:34, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You missed the point. I never said we should delete the claim of 11, I left it there. What I said is that we should remove the claim that Israeli media confirmed the claim that 11 were killed. Therefore putting Israeli media alongside "Lebanese and international media" was inappropriate. If you'll notice I left in "Lebanese and international media estimates." Israeli media did not confirm the claim that Hezbollah's losses were only 11, that is a Lebanese claim with some international media sources echoing it. It doesn't matter that Ynet "broadly" confirmed it, that means it confirmed the account was largely accurate, not totally accurate. The Ynet source provided did not say only 11 Hezbollah fighters were killed, and that's what's important when you make a reference. Therefore "Israeli media" should not be in the infobox. Period. Not because there are two versions, but because it's simply inaccurate to say that Israeli media confirmed it, no matter if you think it's correct or not.
Please also address the other points I made. Right now it looks to me like the claim that this battle started with the beginning of the war (essentially being part of the 2006 Hezbollah cross-border raid and lumping in IDF casualties from there and from another village despite Hezbollah's tactic of firing anti-tank missiles between villages also being present in other battles, then claiming it's the IDF's claim that 28 soldiers were killed in Ayta ash-Sha'b despite no IDF source I'm aware of saying this, as it's basically just a figure cobbled together on Wikipedia based on numerous incidents, is basically original research. RM (Be my friend) 07:58, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not aware of any ”official” time line for the battles of the Second Lebanon War. Do you mean official Israeli timelines? Why should Wikipedia adhere to those? Israel is only one part of this conflict.
You claim – supported by the Hebrew sister article – that the Battle of Ayta ash-Sha'b only started on the 29th of July. And, indeed, it does say that. But if you read the full article, you will notice that it mentions a clash in Ayta ash-Sha'b already on the 19th, where an IDF paratrooper was gravely wounded and evacuated by helicopter. Would you allow us to include that in the battle?
You ask: “Does this mean we should also date the battle to the first recorded bombing rather than the actual incursion?” Yes, why not? We know from military history that many battles start with a bombardment and only later is followed by a ground advance.
In this war, we know from Lebanese sources that most of Hezbullah casualties occurred as a result of artillery shelling and aerial bombardment, not from ground fighting. Do you suggest that we exclude these from Hezbullah casualties?
And I believe that the majority of IDF fatalities in the war was caused by rockets and missiles. Should these fatalities be excluded from the tallies of the battles?
I think it's an excellent first principle to include ALL fighting in the Second Lebanon War in a certain locality X in the article named ”Battle of X”. In some cases you might want to separate two events that happened in the same locality. Such as the two IDF raids on Tyre.
You keep referring to Hebrew sister-articles as some kind of key. But the Hebrew articles are vastly inferior to the English ones on this topic. As many of the editors of the Hebrew articles are aware of. I recently saw a suggestion on a talk page on how to improve the Hebrew article on the battle of Bint Jbeil to simply translate the English article to Hebrew. Excellent suggestion, if you ask me.
According the Hebrew Bint Jbeil article the battle was limited to the time span 26-27 July, which primarily included the Golani disaster. But it is ironic. This clash didn't take place in Bint Jbeil at all. It took place in the outskirts of the neighboring town of Aynata. The Golanis never reached Bint Jbeil. Actually, this clash is called “The Battle of Aynata” in Lebanese historiography.
I have never suggested that the Hezbollah cross border raid should be included in the Battle of Ayta ash-Sha'b. It is only the Israeli response to the cross border raid that should be included. Which is quite natural since that response happened to be an attack on Ayta ash-Sha'b. A disastrous attack for the attackers, but still.
Concerning the missiles fired on IDF forces in Dibil. They were fired from Ayta ash-Sha'b, as attested to by both Israeli and Lebanese sources. So they are included in the story of the battle. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 23:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because the Israeli official timelines are properly sourced. If you have other sources regarding timelines, let's see them and compare. What you cannot do is just make up timelines based on your estimations, on just what you think is the proper starting date. That's called original research. If you want to date all fighting to a certain date need to either show sources or get a consensus. You can't just make up dates on your own.
When it comes to the Israeli response, it was a raid to recover the soldiers, not an actual attack on the town itself. Again it seems like you decided to include this in the battle based on your own ideas.
And I'll say it again, missiles fired into neighboring towns was a feature of this war. The Battle of Maroun al-Ras saw IDF troops come under missile attack from Bint Jbeil. You could just as easily make the argument that they are in effect the same battle thanks to that. RM (Be my friend) 14:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, you are wrong. There are no Israeli “official timelines” for the South Lebanon battles. If so, maybe you could provide us with the “proper sources” that support this view? And the Hebrew Wikipedia articles on the battles do not “reflect the consensus in Israel on when the battle started”. In fact, they are of very low quality.
The IDF attack on Ayta ash-Sha'b on 31 July was not it's first attempted attack, but the third. First, the “Hannibal” attack on 12 July and then “Operation Webs of Steel 1” on 19 July. Both of these are mentioned in the official Israeli Winograd report. This fact was also confirmed by the Israeli Defence Minister's complaint in early August: “we're circling Ayta al-Shaab for the third time already."
In between these three land attacks, IDF launched sustained artillery and air attacks, documented in detail by both Israeli and Lebanese sources. It is simply unreasonable to claim that the battle only started on 31 July.
The Hebrew sister article claims that the battle of Ayta took place between 31 July – 11 August and that 13 IDF soldiers were killed in the battle. But if you check with the fatalities list in the English article, you'll see that this does not add up. Four of these 13 IDF soldiers actually died on 13 August, outside the supposedly “official” time-frame.
The Hebrew article on the Battle of Bint Jbeil is even worse. According to it, the battle lasted only two days (26 – 27 July) and only eight IDF soldiers were killed. Outside this time frame, an additional 9 IDF soldiers died in Bint Jbeil, on 24 July and 7-8 August. The total of 17 IDF fatalities is supported by a secondary source, Kober (2008).
The official IDF blog claims that the battle lasted from 24 July to “mid August”. (3 weeks)
Winograd report mentions three periods of ground fighting; 23 - 29 July, 1 - 3 August, and 6 - 9 August (altogether 2 weeks)
The article covers only two clashes: the deadly Golani clash in the olive grove in Aynata and a clash involving the paratroopers in north-western Bint Jbeil. The inclusion of this clash is strange since it appears to have taken place a day or two outside the supposed time frame of the battle. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 00:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 October 2024

[edit]

Under "Casualties" section

"On 19 July Zaynab Salah Jawad, aged 7, and her brother Kawthar, 4, were killed"

should be changed to:

"On 19 July Zaynab Salah Jawad, aged 7, and her sister Kawthar, 4, were killed"

Kawthar ("كوثر") is an Arabic female name.

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Kausar Note that the page says "Gender: female" in the infobox. And although the page itself does say that the name is given to both males and females, please note that all the examples given there for Arabs are females. The only male ones are Pakistani and Indian, who do not use Arabic as their first language. (I guess it's like "Sasha" which is a male name in Russia, but when used by people whose first language isn't Russian, it's often used as female.)

When it comes to Arabs, I haven't come across any male Kawthar.

In fact, the Arabic wikipedia entry of the name lists it as female: https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%83%D9%88%D8%AB%D8%B1_(%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%85)

The source says 'siblings', so it's likely that whoever wrote "brother" assumed that the name is male. 2A02:8085:B13E:9C80:3429:17AC:6E40:872E (talk) 12:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correction done.Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 16:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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