Talk:Basketball/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Rules and regulations

I've largely simplified the rules section — as I've done on many occasions now — and placed messages requesting editors to be careful here.

My reasoning is this: this article (which was 38 kilobytes long before my edit) can only capture a summary of the game; as some of us know the FIBA rules are a good 80 pages long and of course most rules simply cannot be listed here. To show differences between college, high school, FIBA and NBA, as I have mentioned in /archive1#Levels in Basketball, only complicates things — such distinctions are not necessary in this overview. Rules that are technicalities can generally be avoided.

There is a page, Rules of basketball, that I created for the rules of basketball. I haven't had any time to edit it at all; and I don't know how much progress it has made, but a more detailed explanation of basketball's rules can be written there. While it can be tempting to clarify and even expand on rules here, I ask that we don't do so.

On this note, I think it would be a good idea to work to reduce this article to about 30 kilobytes. In fact, once it's simplified a bit, it could have a go at featured article status. Please reply. Neonumbers 05:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

• I've made a couple minor changes to make the rules section flow better with the limit of FIBA/NBA rules (a good limit, I believe). I'll try to avoid adding anything that's not essential. Simishag 20:40, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Awesome. I just had to reverse the changes to the uniform section (just the part about numbers); I felt it was getting wordy (and we didn't need to go into unambiguousness and language barriers in that much detail). I think the best thing is actually to make sure things are worded concisely, when I think about it. (Thanks for your edits, btw. I know articles are never "owned" by anyone, but I'm inclined to keep an eye on this one because it's happened so many times now.) :-) Neonumbers 23:24, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'd actually even go so far as to say that the specific numbers don't need to be mentioned; the only really crucial point is that every player wears a unique number. But I'll leave it alone for now. Simishag 23:32, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Because you're removing and not adding with that, I'll (albeit sceptically) abide by your judgement on that one. Feel free to remove the specific numbers if you wish. Neonumbers 23:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Variations and similar games

I guess, in a way, this is arguably part of basketball. But I don't think so. Variations aren't "basketball" as such, games like 21 and horse aren't even variations of basketball: they are games invented to practise or use basketball skills. I know I'm treading on dangerous ground here. I ask, however, which "spin-offs" are actually common - I have heard of few, it seems to me that games like 21 and horse are basically a game for children (or adults) who are just playing around. I may well be alone in that little of this merits entry in this article (even if it merits entry in the encyclopedia). I don't refer to the practise of playing 3 on 3 or half-court, et cetera. What are views among editors about this section? Neonumbers 05:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

• The current variations section seems way too long. It might actually be worthy of its own article. I think the section here should be limited to really, REALLY common variations on the game. The half-court variation is critically important; in a crowded gym it may be the only option for players. It should be noted that reduced roster sizes are common. However, all that could be covered in a few sentences. Horse is interesting because probably every kid has played it at some point, but I don't think we need to get into every version of 21 and horse, nor every street scoring rule. If you agree, I'll have a go at moving that section into its own article. Simishag 20:38, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm right behind you. I actually think "variations" is a misleading name; games like horse aren't really variations, just, well, basketball-skill-related games... can't think of a better name myself though! All agreed. :-) Neonumbers 23:26, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

new page up at Variations of basketball. Simishag 02:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Awesome. Neonumbers 06:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if you play basketball, but 21 is not a game to play when you are just "playing around" it is a serious game that is a variation of baskeball. - atlballer91

Reducing article size

Almost there - the article is 32 kilobytes but I should really be at 30 kilobytes. Also, I wanted to put something in about common plays, like the pick and roll — so something else has to give way! I conclude that the other sections can still be simplified a bit. I'll do it when I get time, but if someone else wants to have a go, feel free!  ;-) Neonumbers 06:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I just realised that History of basketball might need to be made... I don't know much about history yet, though. I'll get to it eventually if no-one else does, but there's just an idea. Neonumbers 06:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Forgot to mention: ideally, all three sections will be of equal length. Neonumbers 06:14, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Somewhat like they are now. Neonumbers 06:17, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, done. Neonumbers 11:14, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Not real sure about the new intro. The original intro was short & sweet and did a decent job of introducing the game. The current one has 2 more long paras that basically just summarize the rules, which is essentially redundant info that's already summarized in the main body. Writing another even shorter version doesn't seem like an improvement, and just makes the article longer. Simishag 20:49, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Yea to be honest I don't like it either. It was a suggestion at Wikipedia:Peer review/Basketball/archive1 — the guidelines at WP:LEAD say that for an article of this length, the intro should be three paragraphs. I don't really understand why... feel free to remove it, but be aware that FA process editors might prefer it there. Neonumbers 04:15, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Citing sources

There is a problem with source citing in this article.

While the rules and regulations section is properly referenced, the other two sections are not. The history section was written a very long time ago; most users who contributed to this were IP addresses who have probably left or other users who have lost interest. Furthermore, unlike the other sections, this section was written bit by bit, almost sentence by sentence. Given the article in its current form, unless the original authors of this section can be contacted, it is difficult to cite sources, unless the entire section is rewritten with references.

The common techniques and practice section generally didn't have references; these sections were written mostly by people with experience in the sport, who didn't need references to write the sections. While it is good practice to always cite sources, we face a problem here with that.

Any solutions? Neonumbers 23:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Teams exchange baskets for the second half

Do they really change baskets or do they defend the opposite end of the court for the second half. Think of how it looks to someone whos English is poor or has no understanding of the game. I rewrote (badly) the sentence before and I see it's changed back now. It envokes the image of a little centre court ceremony at half time where the teams exchange baskets. And yes I know I'm being pedantic but the article should be clear. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 20:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

That's a fair point; my opinion is that that wording is fine.

The teams "own" a basket, namely the one they defend. They attack their opponents' basket. "Teams shall exchange baskets for the second half" is the exact wording from the FIBA rulebook, 2004.

The reason I chose that wording (if it was me... can't remember) is because it was concise — I have a concern with article size and I have tried, especially in the rules section, to get to the point as quickly as possible without over-elaboration. (It wasn't because that's how it's worded in the rulebook, it just gave me a nice wording.)

I think it's fine, but if there's a better way that doesn't increase the length of the sentence (much) then I'll stick with it. Neonumbers 03:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

"exchanging" goals at the end of a period is a well-known concept in many sports; non-english speakers understand soccer and hockey games perfectly well. "swap" or "switch" might be better but if the FIBA rulebook says "exchange" I think that's fine. Simishag 03:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

It was a bit longer after I changed it and I can't think of a short way to say it. All I can think of is "Teams defend the opposite end of the court in the second half." The rule book is written for those that understand the basic rules. It's probably a minor point and I'm not really sure that anyone would mistake it. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 03:33, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd just change "end of the court" to "basket". Aside from that, that change couldn't hurt. Neonumbers 03:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

On a somewhat related matter, under American rules (NBA, NCAA, etc.), a team's basket is the one it attacks, not defends. This is probably because there is no designated goalkeeper in basketball. In practice, of course, this distinction would only occur in discussions among officials, and most spectators in North America or abroad would probably be unaware of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.131.243.115 (talk • contribs) .

Cutting

(Copied from User talk:Simishag)

I was taught that a cut is made in order to receive a good pass? Hence, a cut may be made right through the keyhole, if the defenders are poorly concentrated, or there is some open space on the other side — and, a cut isn't much use if you cut into the keyhole where all the tall guys are and you've got no space. This page says its to elude a defender or find an open space... which in a more general sense is to find an advantageous position... correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain on this. (Have edited the article accordingly.) Neonumbers 03:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the best place to discuss this is on Talk:Basketball rather than here. The glossary you linked actually looks like a pretty good reference to link into the page. I don't want to get too pedantic about it, but my experience with the term "cut" suggests that it is a move toward the basket. The cutter is trying to break down the defense and is looking to take a shot immediately after receiving the ball. I've heard lots of sportscasters use "cut in" and "cut to/towards the basket" but never "cut outside" (I've heard "break out/outside" a few times). It's not just a move into space to receive a pass; the goal is to shed or beat the defender(s) and take a shot. Simishag 06:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

(copied text ends here)

Maybe it depends who you ask :S.

My plan with references is to see what books I can find, check the article against them, and then cite them. Cheap, but good. (Well, the alternative is re-writing the article.) Neonumbers 03:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

vandalism by 69.140.211.244

ugh.. substantial vandalism by 69.140.211.244 in multiple sections. Are people really that bored? I think I restored everything but I'd appreciate a second or third set of eyes to verify. Simishag 01:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I did the last of it, just a section header and the removal of a few extra empty lines. A third set of eyes couldn't hurt.

This article does seems to be targeted... *sigh* Neonumbers 03:09, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Grace of game

Talking in the absolute sense about how the "grace" of the game as the reason the game is popular sounds like POV. In fact, is anyone really sure why people like what they do? No other major sports article on wikipedia has a statement like this, so I altered it:

I've added the quantifer "some say that", to make it sound a little more objective.

Drdestiny7 14:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, and welcome along. I understand your concerns (that sentence has been edited before) — I believe some slack should be cut here. This is not a controversial issue; there is not an issue with proponents and opponents like there is with, for example, intelligent design.

Rather, this is a case of original research. If it can be referenced (which it probably can't), it is a valid sentence.

After thinking about it, I changed the sentence to "Basketball is a popular spectator sport". It's not referenced yet, but I don't think anyone could dispute it (most of this article is unreferenced and I'm sure figures could be found to support it). Reasons for it, perhaps, are diving into unverifiability. So, I guess I see your point. Thanks. Neonumbers 12:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I've added in some countries in front of Basketball is also a popular spectator sport as it's populartity varied around the world. Markb 12:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Further reading

Does anyone know what The Meaning of Sports has to do with this article, and why it's on this page? I've never before encountered an article with a "Further reading" section. Is this a source or something?

It was added on 16 June 2004 with this edit by 63.175.72.10.

If there are no objections on or before 31 January 2006 (UTC), I will remove that entry and the Further reading section.

Neonumbers 11:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the section, as forewarned. For records purposes, I replicate it here:

• The Meaning of Sports by Michael Mandelbaum (Public Affairs, ISBN 1-58648-252-1).

Please don't re-add the entry without discussing it here first. Neonumbers 06:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Basketball Positions

I've created and uploaded an image at Image:Basketball positions.png, which I have added to this article. Could someone please double-check it for accuracy? Thanks. Neonumbers 11:59, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Origins

I've changed the stament "even though it was an American game" to "North American game". Some may not agree, but Canada played a strong part in the origins of Basketball. The inventor of the game was Canadian, 10 of the players that played the first basketball game were Canadian, the game was played a lot in the early years in Canada, and the first NBA game was played in Canada with a Canadian team playing. By refering to it exclusively as an American game I feel it does not give credit to these facts (can be referenced from NBA.com's history section, or many other sources).

206.116.26.72 09:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

External links

I've noticed many additions to this section recently, which, at the risk of being exclusionist, I removed. The following guidelines for the links section are open to discussion, but please try to restrict additions to the external links section strictly to informational sites, for the enthusiast's reading. In particular, links to these sites should be avoided:

• Fan sites
• Forums
• Online stores

Also, the sites should be reputable, but to be fair this is a very subjective judgement and is open to argument, so we needn't worry about that one so much. Thanks. Neonumbers 09:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The principle I took with removals today was that the site constitutes a sort of "further reading" for a reader of this article. Generally, someone who reads this article will be someone that doesn't know what's in it beforehand. Sites which have a focus (not just inclusion) on players, coaches and statistics were also removed, as well as regional sites except for the NBA. Comments welcomed, please discuss before re-adding a removed link. Neonumbers 09:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Basketball photo

I found this great photo on a free CC on Flickr:

I think it would be a great title image for this article. Does anyone else agree? --Quasipalm 04:12, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't. Sorry, this doesn't look like a modern basketball game to me, which would be a good first image for the article (as there is now.) Neonumbers 10:57, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

What's a "modern" basketball game? Do only basketball games played in stadiums matter? To me, the current title photo is boring and forgettable. In fact, I can't even remeber what it looks like, and I just saw it two seconds ago.  ;-)

Besides,you're the one that added this image, so maybe we should get a second opinion. (BTW, the image you replaced, Image:Basketball.jpg was also much better than the amateur-looking and blured photograph you changed it to.) --Quasipalm 21:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. The reader should get an immediate look at a game of basketball being played from a normal spectator's viewing angle. The current image meets that, and also reflects the international nature of the game, the fact that women's teams are prominent and that the game is widely viewed and played in stadiums. I agree that the image is blurry and could stand to be replaced. Personally I think an image of an NBA game would be better due to the quality of the league and its influence on the sport. Your suggested image has some aesthetic qualities but that doesn't make it appropriate for the lead. I do not think a pickup game or someone practicing is acceptable. Simishag 23:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Good points all -- perhaps I'm just of the few that associate baskeball more as a backyard sport than a business, maybe that's why the alternative resonates more with me. Looking around at some of the professional NBA photos that are used as fair use on Wikipedia, I still think we can do better than the title image currently featured. Another option to consider is the simple currently at American football. --Quasipalm 02:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, no, I'm not the one who added the image. If you check that edit, you'll notice the image was moved from the bottom of the page to the top; the purpose of that was to balance the images throughout the article (the current image was in the "see also section", the old title image is now in the "college" section.) Please do not imply that I am responsible for the image; I assumed it was worthy of being on the article because it was already there.

That all said, I don't necessarily think that the current image is ideal, and am happy to see it changed. For me, any photo that is of a high-level (professional or international) game of basketball, that has a good (spectator) view, will do — but personally, I prefer an international (men's or women's) game over NBA/professional (NBA does have significant influence, no doubt about it, but as the lead image I'd prefer one that shows international-ness.) Neonumbers 06:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Why are there no NBA photos - is it fair use issues? I think it would be good to have at least one NBA picture since it is the biggest league in terms of spectators, and gets a fair amount of international attention. IceJew 09:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Michael Jordan beats all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.187.198.43 (talk) 15:46, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

Naismith

The section College basketball and early leagues opens with the sentence "Naismith himself was instrumental in establishing the college game", but the only mention of Naismith in the entire article is that paragraph, and it's only his last name -- his role in the game is never mentioned at all. Isn't he kinda important? :) --Chairman Kaga 01:07, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, here we go. This edit [1] on March 15 vandalized the opening paragraph of the History section, and instead of reverting, this edit [2] deleted the paragraph entirely. I'm going to restore this. --Chairman Kaga 02:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Attendance record

Basketball is a game of 5 v. 5 game where one team tries to score on the opponents basket. its that simple. however, you must be in shape to play. Any talk of basketball history should include the international attendance record. This is a common practice amoung other sports. It is serving no harm other than to give information on the history of the game. Please keep this content on the main page. Thank you.

AStudent 09:19, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your edits and contributions, but on this matter, I disagree. The article is, as it is, overlength — a few months ago I put a lot of effort into ensuring it was at the 32kb recommended limit, a good guideline for article length in my opinion, and I quite simply haven't had the time or effort to keep an eye on it first. I've noticed heaps added to the history section but I don't know enough to know what's significant and what's not.

Nevertheless, I concur with the edits of 203.214.91.5. The content of that paragraph is not so much to do with an overview of basketball as a game as it is to do with trivia, or more specifically, world records. Close reading of that section indicates more a description of that one game than a contribution to a reader's understanding of basketball.

If it is truly common practice among other sports, then you would do us the honour of showing us where. On football (soccer), field hockey, tennis, team handball, water polo, cricket, rugby union, American football, netball, volleyball, badminton, I couldn't find any mention of attendance records. The only mentions I could find were ice hockey, which was added recently by User:AStudent, and Australian rules football, which has a rather extensive discussion on the sport's popularity (as opposed to a trivia on world records).

The purpose of this article, as the main basketball article, is to provide a overview of the sport to give a relatively new enthusiast a good understanding of the sport (more specialised understanding is delegated to more specialised articles). It is therefore important to be selective with information presented. Ultimately, a trivial world record for most people at a match doesn't show the reader anything. If need be done, basketball's popularity is better demonstrated using average turnouts, or some other measure. The trivia does not tell the origins or life story of basketball either.

Thanks again for your edits. In this post I don't mean to imply that the edits are completely worthless — I just mean to say that for this article, this addition doesn't quite fit in. I hope you continue to contribute to Wikipedia. Neonumbers 13:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Since, in three days, no-one has replied to this comment, I've removed that section. Neonumbers 00:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Rules and regulations

Edit summary, just in case anyone's wondering why I made those edits (primarily for those whom I haven't met before). Objections should be posted below and discussed first.

Please, people, because of space restrictions, not college rules here! A more detailed summary of rules and regulations should go on rules of basketball. For this overview of the subject, FIBA and NBA rules are by far the most relevant to the world as a whole. This was explained earlier, scroll up to the other "Rules and regulations" section.

"team personal fouls" is incorrect, the correct term is "team fouls".

FIBA rules dictate that a men's ball circumference is between 749 and 780 millimetres, and that a women's ball circumference is between 724 and 737 mm. These have medians of 76.45 and 73.05 cm respectively, which I rounded to two significant figures and converted to inches. Arguably, it could be necessary to have "76 centimetres (30 in)" rather than "30 inches (76 cm)" but I haven't done this.

"These rules are designed to reward good defense." -- it is not immediately obvious why these rules exist, and each of the time limits (except maybe 3 seconds) is intended to reward defense.

Miscellaneous details were also removed. My intention is to keep this article as brief as it possibly can — within 31 kilobytes — while covering what needs to be known by a beginning enthusiast. Neonumbers 12:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I would disagree that college rules should be entirely excluded. In the U.S., which of course has more basketball fans and players than any other country, college basketball is at least as popular as the NBA and probably more so. I wouldn't be surprised if, considering basketball's status as a major sport in the U.S., there was more interest in NCAA basketball than in all FIBA-rules basketball combined. -- Mwalcoff 23:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding cliché, basketball is an international sport — if I remember correctly, the most popular indoor sport. And, let's be fair, most people outside the U.S. care about the NBA, but not about college. And, of course, the article is written for everyone, not just Americans.

College basketball rules are welcome to go on rules of basketball because they are a significant part of basketball. However, the rules section is to be short and to the point, and the only true differences little technicalities, like the 24/35-second clock, free throw administration, time-outs — things which are the same in principle but different in detail, that is, things that really aren't worth going on for ages about when you're providing a summary.

My point is that I'm not trying to exclude college basketball outright — I'm just trying to be realistic with space and the patience of the reader, who cares more about the principles than the differences between leagues. Yeah, college basketball's big, but I'm still convinced the NBA is bigger and FIBA rules are played worldwide. The reader who wants picky details goes to rules of basketball to find out — not here. Neonumbers 11:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The article before said that the NBA foul limit was four.... which was, clearly and obviously, simply wrong. I changed it to 6; the correct number.Dan 22:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The context of the paragraph seems to be with regard to team fouls ("in the penalty") for a quarter - not the limit for individuals in a game, which is mentioned later in the paragraph. I can't seem to recal the exact number before they start shooting free throws - will verify that it's four before reverting. Kuru ^talk 22:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Aye, according to the the NBA rules, it's four team fouls per period. No harm, no foul. Pun intended. Kuru ^talk 22:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

History of basketball

The history section's getting rather long, with all sorts of additions in recent weeks. I expect there is heaps and heaps more to say on the history of basketball, and, like the rules — perhaps more so than the rules of basketball — this merits its own article.

I don't know much about the history of basketball and I really don't have time at this point to do anything about it. But if anyone's interested, knows something about the subject, or has time to do anything about it, I encourage them to create history of basketball, link to it from this article, and delegate any other additions to the history section here to there.

On creation of the history of basketball page, a good target for its length on this page is about 9.5 kilobytes. (At present, it is about 12.8 kilobytes.)

Perhaps one day, if no-one else does, I'll find the time, but if anyone's interested, there's an idea. Neonumbers 05:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Also in the History of Basketball Section: "Interestingly basketball and netball are the only ball games which have been identified as being invented by North Americans." Where's this come from? It doesn't ring true. Any sources? What about Lacrosse? The wikipedia article on it says "The sport was invented by Native North Americans." Or Wallyball? And this doesn't put in any qualification for "popular" or "major" sports. Surely there are hundreds of ball-sports invented by North Americans? I didn't want to just change it, because I hardly know anything about sports or basketball, but it doesn't sound right to me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.39.98.79 (talk • contribs) .

If it's not referenced, and you know what is true, then go ahead and change it. Neonumbers 08:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Gay Baskteball??

I read somewhere that basket ball was invented by two gay people wanting to bump into each other? It has since dissapeared. Was this info deleted? and why are we disregarding our homosexual forefathers?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.6.138.33 (talk • contribs) .

That's not quite true. Basketball was invented by one man, James Naismith, as outlined in the article. It is not commonly known, and it is certainly not cared about, whether he was homosexual, heterosexual or bisexual. Neonumbers 08:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Although he did work at the YMCA :) -- Mwalcoff 23:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism can become funny when people actually believe it. Be careful when you read something here, remember anyone can change anything. Piet 13:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

An excellent example is LAKERS RULE!!!!!!!!!! User:Chris gonzalez

US rules vs. international rules

The US team again has failed to win the world title, even though they should have the best players. Is this due to different tactics that are used in international games vs. NBA? Is this because of different rules? If so, which rules? It would be nice to have a short explanation on this. Piet 13:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, the NBA is very international now -- Pau Gassol, Dirk Nowitski, Yao Ming, Steve Nash (he's Canadian), and many more wouldn't be playing for the US team. See this [3] list of international NBA players. It's a pretty big list. I did notice Dwayne Wade was on the US team, but I haven't actually seen any of the action on TV (UK bball coverage sucks).

Having said that, the NBA rules have always put a lot of emphasis on man-on-man defense, quick possessions, and recent rule changes have shifted that emphasis further still. For example, there is now a 3-second defensive violation, and also illegal defense (I believe that's double-teaming an offensive player without the ball). International rules, I believe, are much more flexible on the type of defensive formations allowed. The centre can simply stand under his ring all day long, if he wanted to. You could have 3 guys mark Shaq for an entire game.

I'd like to see this addition, but I'm not 100% certain of my characterisation of the rule differences, and actually, the article at the moment seems to be including the most common, bare essential rules that define the game. Perhaps a section on differences between national leagues (I'm sure the Australian league differs slightly from the Chinese league from the NBA from the etc etc) and international rules would be informative. I will try to spend some time looking up some references. Tez 14:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I agree the article lists the major differences in rules, but I didn't see how they affected the tactics. Your three lines above have made it a lot clearer. It would be nice to have a reference for this so we can include it. Piet 14:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and further (for those interested), there is a zone in the key, right under the basket, where an offensive player may charge into a defensive player without being called for a foul in the NBA (and this is certainly absent from every other non-NBA game I've seen). The threshold for the amount of contact before the ref blows his whistle in the NBA is now very low (eg. you can't put you open palm on a player anymore, even if you're just doing so to gauge and maintain a good defensive distance). Also, the amount of carrying (where the hand is technically beneath the ball while dribbling) and travelling that NBA players get away with is pretty atrocious.

Of course, all this is my own charaterisation and opinion. Again, I will endevour to look for some rulebook links, or something more instructive, but I ain't guaranteeing anything! Tez 15:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

For anything about the rules (including NBA vs. FIBA comparisons) I'd strongly encourage you to put it on the Rules of basketball page. As you've said, the aim of this article is the cover the bare essentials; but there is room for much further detail on the rules of basketball page. Neonumbers 07:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

New version of foul rules

Here's what I believe the fouling rules should become: Scott Gall 10:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC) (If you think some of them are too harsh or idiotic, I suggest you pollute my talk page with your rubbish.)

Shooting fouls and free throws

• If a fouled shooter misses his shot but not because of the foul, the basket will not count, but he/she will get two or three free throws.
• If a missed shot was because of the foul, the basket will count and there will be two or three free throws.
• The same rules (the basket plus one free throw) will apply if the shot was still made, however if the shot was made because of the foul, only the free throw will count.
• Free throws may not be cancelled at any time.
• If a shooting foul was committed in the last 2 minutes of a quarter, the scores will be switched around if the fouling team is ahead, and then any baskets and free throws will be awarded to the new leaders.

Fouling out

• If a player fouls out, he must shoot four free throws into his own basket before leaving the court. Anyone on the same team who interferes with the throws will also foul out and have to shoot four free throws as well. If an opponent interferes with the throws, they will get 100 points per second.
• If two players from a team foul out, the game will then be forfeited.

Flatter TOC

Basketball can and will make you #REDIRECT popular if you play im just saying it heplped me and now all the boys like me

-''''''Jon Phillip Melancon.''''''

A flatter TOC is required. Once this is unprotected, I'm going to revert Snyler's changes. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I want someones oppinion if some one brushes up against someone and makes the other player drop the ball will that count as a foul i just want someone oppinion.

Canadian Inventions?

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Canada, but I always thought that Basketball was invented in Kansas.Cameron Nedland 14:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

No offense taken! It's always a good idea to ask... here is the relevant text from the article:

"In early December 1891, Dr. James Naismith, a Canadian physician of McGill University and minister on the faculty of a college for YMCA professionals (today, Springfield College) in Springfield, Massachusetts, USA, sought a vigorous indoor game to keep his students occupied and at proper levels of fitness during the long New England winters."

Hope this helps. --Ckatz^chat_spy 18:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, sorry to waste your time.Cameron Nedland 20:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Not a waste at all - happy to help. --Ckatz^chat_spy 21:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Hoop/Net Size

If anyone knows the official diameter of a basketball hoop, please add it to the Equipment section. Also the size/length of the netting.--Funhistory 20:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

General

Don't you think some reference to the NBA as well as the collage basketball and the ACC should be included? Ace ofgabriel 21:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean? There's a whole subsection on the NBA... Neonumbers 03:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

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