Talk:Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry/Archive 1

Archive 1

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You have a typo, the School is known as BARTS, not bRats, note position of the R, it makes a different word, one that is derogatory!

this was from User:87.74.32.113

Am not sure if it is ok to keep elizabeth blackwell in the alumni section because i am only aware of her working at barts hospital and know nothing about her studying at the medical school

Should O. E. H. Wucheria be added as alumni? can't find out where he studied but all pages on him talk of his links to barts

these two were from User:Douglas_Burkinshaw

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Does this page need moving?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page from "Barts and The London, Queen Mary's School of Medicine and Dentistry" to "Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry" at this time, per the discussion below. This can be revisited if there is new evidence that the new title is in common use. Dekimasuよ! 00:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

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Following the most recent name change, should this page not now follow it, and move to Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry?

I would do it myself but I no longer have a wiki account. Best wishes long-dead ex-user 138.37.199.206 (talk) 11:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It's confused because the website is not unanimous on what the name is - see the copyright notice at the bottom and the About page that calls it "Barts and The London, Queen Mary's School of Medicine and Dentistry". Does anyone have a link to an online style guide setting things out clearly? Timrollpickering (talk) 12:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The Barts and the London logo was in use when I worked there. Sometime around 2000, Queen Mary College decided to drop the college designation and tried to rebrand everything. The rebranding went off half-cocked as the medical schools dug their heels in and sought to retain something of their individual identities, even the associations with the respective hospitals. I don't think it's something that's ever been resolved, but the formal title of the institution appears to be Queen Mary's School of Medicine & Dentistry - never used without the qualifier Barts and The London.

One of the more bizarre things was the separation required between monies; ie college money, HEFC money, Hospital Trust money, GP Trust money and NHS general funds. There was little synergy from shared infrastructure and attending conferences meant working out which hat you were wearing. Kbthompson (talk) 13:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

In my time at QMUL, my recollection is that the medical & dental school has been generally called "the School of Medicine and Dentistry" (or "the SMD") in internal documents but "Barts and the London" in casual conversation by the students - mind you the full title is not one that rolls off the tongue in casual discussion or necessary for college minutes.

If the SMD has renamed lately (I've not been near it for a while) then we should have the article reflect that, but we need to be clear what it is. Goldsmiths, University of London went through several titles before settling because the website was not up to date on its own rebranding. Timrollpickering (talk) 14:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Tim, there is indeed an intranet page somewhere which makes it clear. I will try and dig out the URL for you. The fact remains - and I recognize that in wikipedia these days one's word is not good enough - that the correct, current title is Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry. This has recently been made very clear to SMD staff by management. So whilst the historical recollections above are interesting, they cast no light on the current story. And yes, it's true that some (many?) web pages are not yet up to date but there is a move in that direction. The SMD home page, for a start, is correctly branded. ICMS and Wolfson are also reasonably current though yes, it is true that other Institutes are not, yet. I will dig out that page for you... Same dead user, different IP: 82.45.248.177 (talk) 10:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The college intranet is behind a firewall and not accessible beyond the college. I based my conclusion on the papers people are publishing and that's under the Queen Mary epithet. Hopefully, the situation will become clear. Kbthompson (talk) 10:55, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Oops. Basing any conclusion on where people say they work in published papers is unwise. It's taken years for some staff to catch up with what we were called until last year, so goodness knows how long it will take this time. It's influenced by a number of factors, not just a desire for absolute accuracy. Nevertheless, what is published on the SMD's main page, as if it were the name of the institution, IS what we have been told is the name of the institution. However, half-way through writing this I have realized I do not actually care, so please call it whatever you like whenever you like with my blessing! :) 82.45.248.177 (talk) 12:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Official name vs common name

The discussion above seems to assume that Wikipedia prefers to use the official name. This is not generally the case, see Wikipedia:naming conventions and Wikipedia:official names. Andrewa (talk) 02:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Well it's not really the "official" name but rather the "brand" name since this very often is the most commonly used name in current formal writing (nicknames like "Barts" really don't enter into it), which is particularly useful for fields like universities and medical schools where a lot of the time people can easily truncate things for consumption internal to the sector. Certainly it's the easiest to determine in most cases and avoids clunky out of date terms like "QMW". Timrollpickering (talk) 10:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Local names aren't all that relevant either, unless it's something that is only known locally... in which case the topic is unlikely to be encyclopedic anyway! Wikipedia:naming conventions reads in part Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize... Andrewa (talk) 11:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Please reconsider this move request

The School has done a lot of work to encourage staff and students alike to use the new "brand" name: Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry.

It is now the most commonly used name and appears on all documentation and most college websites. http://www.smd.qmul.ac.uk/

The old name is far more clunky than the new one and the greatest number of English speakers will most definitely recognize it.

Hewijew (talk) 19:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yup. "Welcome to Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry" is what Professor Sir Nick says right there on that page, and he ought to know. "Queen Mary's School of" is, like, gone, man ... :) Nomorenonotnever (talk) 15:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Has this gone anywhere? There's no more discussion. The website is more consistent about the new name ... should we not now just move it? DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 21:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Please comment on move possibility

Please see the "reconsider" request and comments following it. I would appreciate some discussion - without it I'm tempted to just move it and see what follows. Please also see the link to the November 2007 PDF http://www.smd.qmul.ac.uk/about/bartsnewname.pdf which Hewijew posted on their talk page. Thanks DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 08:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Still no comment on this: Shall I take it that there is now no opposition to this move? Your comments would be very much welcomed. Even the SMD home page http://www.smd.qmul.ac.uk/ now has the new form - even in the title! :) DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 10:17, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

It's quiet, Captain - too quiet... I've made it a proper request, please see below. Cheers DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 19:32, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Getting the name right: Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry

Just in case anyone does decide to go ahead and move it (because it's not a simple move as it'll be over a redirect so I guess I can't anyway) can I just take the opportunity to point out that there is only one correct form, which is Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry - no comma anywhere, capitalization as shown. I only mention this because it's an area ripe for confusion and at least one previous attempt introduces a rogue, or rouge, comma. :) DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 09:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

There's been no more discussion and I'm tempted to assume that those who were opposed have lost interest, or even agree (though to be fair I have tried to contact everyone who seemed interested). In the meantime, the School's new name has moved into wider use. Why, even the School's own website http://www.smd.qmul.ac.uk/ is getting it right quite often! :) I therefore propose that the page should move to Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry, and that the current (wrong) version Barts and The London, Queen Mary's School of Medicine and Dentistry should become a redirect to the new one. I feel that this is now uncontroversial, and indeed would move it myself were it not blocked by the redirect. Thanks DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization etc: please note that the form Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry is exactly correct: no change of capitalization (or punctuation!) is correct. Thanks DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Uncontroversial and ample precedent so moved. Timrollpickering (talk) 22:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Tim! DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 23:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi there, thanks for the heads up. No problem - except with my ISP allowing me to edit at random intervals ... cheers Kbthompson (talk) 23:53, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

POV

I have suggested very politely that the new editor from a QMW IP address might want to look again at some recent edits. Watch this space. :) DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 15:14, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

An awful lot seems a cut and paste job. The changes share much of the language of the website and are also unencyclopaedic. Kbthompson (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I've marked the 'work' for citations and tone. The RAE can probably be summarised in a couple of sentences; but the latter is hardly encyclopaedic. Kbthompson (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

(oops edit conflict) Yes. I was hoping that they'd go "cripes Biggles you're right" and give it a jolly good, voluntary sorting out, and that this would perhaps be better/nicer/educationaler (?) than an experienced editor strafing it from a great height ... but yes. And the trouble is that (as you say in the next bit) not all their changes are bad/unencyclopaedic, and I hoped they might have a go at filleting it a bit - but maybe this is an unrealistic hope.  :) DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 18:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Yet another experienced editor has 'rolled up' - or, should that be Tim ..., nah. There's a lot of unwieldy titles in there. WP:MOS cautions against using the title of the article in every heading. Kbthompson (talk) 18:27, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes, fine and jolly good! Cheers, DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 19:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Jay Sean Alumni?

I don't really think Jay Sean should be part of the Alumni section if he dropped out! He never graduated and therefore is not Alumni. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.170.171 (talk) 15:53, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Read what alumnus says about this. Timrollpickering (talk) 20:19, 12 February 2010 (UTC)