Talk:Barons' Crusade

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Military history: Medieval / Crusades

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Theobald of Champagne, ethnic Frenchman, led a French crusading host

Recently the arms of France were removed from Theobald in the information box, with the explanation being that he was king of Navarre, not France. However it is critical to note that Theobald was an ethnic Frenchman, born in France, who led a distinctly French crusading host... the leadership of which appears to be exclusively French nobility, lords, and officers. As such, I have changed Theobald's descriptor from "of Navarre" to "of Champagne" and re-inserted the French flag. I do agree that describing him as "of Navarre" and including the French flag could be misleading, hence the change to "of Champagne". Blue Danube (talk) 14:35, 16 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it makes much sense to say that the kingdoms of England and France were belligerents in this crusade just because its leaders were French and English. I think it would make more sense to list just the kingdom of Jerusalem. No doubt most of the crusaders were Frenchmen (at least in the sense of subjects of the king of France), but they also had their own coats of arms (including Theobald). It would make the most sense to me to give the leaders in the infobox their own arms and not those of their kingdom. What do you think? Srnec (talk) 00:18, 17 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds very fair to me, but before we proceed with it, I should mention that I had been using the info boxes of the other crusades as precedent. I'm not certain, but it looks like your idea would be the first time it is done (at least for crusade articles). Has it been done elsewhere? If not, and we proceed, I'm just concerned that someone will come along and swat it down as unprecedented/inconsistent. Blue Danube (talk) 01:55, 17 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I thought we were supposed to be moving away from using the little coats of arms at all, since they take up a lot of space, are distracting, and are sometimes anachronistic. I don't know if that's an actual rule though, or if it's just that someone will come along and remove them, and then someone else will put them back, and so on and so on...

Also, I guess this goes without saying, but Champagne was technically independent at this time (even if culturally and politically French). Adam Bishop (talk) 11:55, 17 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]