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Talk:Barış Youth Symphony Orchestra

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CeeGee 11:04, 25 January 2023 (UTC) [reply]

Did you know nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by RoySmith (talk) 02:50, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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  • ... that the Barış Youth Symphony Orchestra was founded at İzmir in 2015 after an example in Venezuela to educate music for children with limited opportunities and to keep them away from crime? Source: "İzmir'de dar gelirli ailelerin çocuklarının suçtan uzak kalmasını sağlamak amacıyla 2015'te ilk adımları atılan Barış Çocuk Senfoni Orkestrası ..." , "Venezuela'nın başkenti Karacas'ın dezavantajlı bölgelerinde yürütülen "El Sistema" projesini örnek aldıklarını ..." (in Turkish) [1]

Created by CeeGee (talk). Self-nominated at 11:04, 1 February 2023 (UTC). Note: As of October 2022, all changes made to promoted hooks will be logged by a bot. The log for this nomination can be found at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Barış Youth Symphony Orchestra, so please watch a successfully closed nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

  • I have concerns. First off, usual disclaimer that Wikipedia's coverage of "local" topics can be woefully lacking, especially local topics in areas without much English-language media. So your work expanding that area is genuinely appreciated. That said...
  • I don't know Turkish. However, some of this article doesn't seem to be accurate or proportionate interpretations of the sources. For example, Kadifekale is linked, and nom added a section to that article on the youth orchestra. But the Wikipedia article and the newspaper source are obviously not talking about the same thing - the Wikipedia article is talking about a historic ruined castle, while the newspaper article seems to refer to it as a troubled neighborhood. I recognize that the neighborhood is probably named after the castle (or they're both named after the same thing), but the point remains, it's off-topic. The same is true of Agora of Smyrna, where the linked article is a heritage site and not a neighborhood. But more generally, even if there was a neighborhood to link, it's literally one word in the sourced newspaper article, with no context or explanations. I don't think it's due weight to copy it over here. More generally, I'm inclined to think that this article is much too long. It's including trivial details like specific grants from the webpage of a non-profit (Sivil Toplum Destek Vakfi), which just isn't Wikipedia-relevant: we should be using secondary sources. Most of the newspaper articles are short and inconsequential. The longest newspaper article is still a bit of a "culture beat" filler-type article about some local organization, and while I'm not one of them, certainly some Wikipedians would probably call this a WP:NOTNEWS violation for expanding a common newspaper story into a Wikipedia article. I'm not saying the article should go to AFD, but I do think if cleaned up, the article would be 4 sentences long, and essentially say that the Barış Youth Symphony Orchestra is a local orchestra in Izmir, skipping out on all the news/PR type material. Such a cleaned-up article would then fail DYK length requirements. I'm inclined to think that the article needs some more substantive sources than what it has currently to qualify on grounds of verifiability and length. (But happy to help if such sources are found!) SnowFire (talk) 05:43, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • theleekycauldron The point is that for the founding of the orchestra in Turkey, the example in Venezuela has been taken, where children are kept away from crime through music. The military music is irrelevant. I don't know how do you come on this argument. CeeGee 05:10, 9 February 2023 (UTC).[reply]
  • Shorter hooks are more memorable. The part about keeping kids away from crime is the feel-good "meal" for people who click the article to read it. The DYK hook is just the interesting part, it's a teaser, and the closest to a teaser is an interesting juxtaposition between Venezuela & Turkey. The less distracting parts, the better.
  • If someone else wants to review the DYK, they're free too - I made some minor edits for clarity and concision. I would probably cut it down even further if I full followed my preferences per above, but tried to keep it to non-controversial stuff. SnowFire (talk) 05:16, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • SnowFire I appreciate very much your edits in the article. However, I don't agree with the Alt-hook at all. If you wish to transfer the DYK-nom to someone else, you can use the "DYK?again" tick. CeeGee 05:33, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As it stands, SnowFire, this nomination is marked for closure. Are the issues irreparably prohibitive for DYK purposes? Iff so, CeeGee, do you agree? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 22:10, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion this is still too minor for DYK but then I believe that DYK should have somewhat stricter standards than others. That said, I'll let someone else take a fresh look if desired.
On the hook comment, I still believe my ALT1 is better than the original hook if there's a desire to run this after all. I get it that it doesn't include the "keep kids away from crime" part but DYK hooks have to be interesting and "punchy". The content of the article will fill readers in on the crime-prevention aspect. Concise hooks are also much better than long ones, so restricting to the one, most interesting thing helps. SnowFire (talk) 22:16, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@CeeGee: I have now read this article and tend to agree that it is missing a little "something" that would make it more compelling for DYK purposes. As a regular at both DYK and AfD, I would say it probably would survive AfD, but the article as it stands now would still trigger a lot of people with a similar reaction to SnowFire (e.g. "Lots of places have music programs for underprivileged children...what is so special about this one?" and "This is so local!"). That said, if there is any secondary source commenting on the significance of the program (e.g. "compared to other similar programs in other countries, Barış Youth Symphony Orchestra is distinctive because X, Y and Z" or "what is striking about Barış Youth Symphony Orchestra is ABC") we could possibly refer to that in the hook and/or in the article. But at the moment it feels a bit thin. I know it's disappointing, but unfortunately not every single article we work on is suitable for DYK, even if it is for a noble cause. Cielquiparle (talk) 10:07, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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