Talk:Balto

Birth Date

Balto's birth year is listed here as 1922. However, the placard placed next to him at the Cleveland Museum of Natural History says BALTO - SIBERIAN HUSKY - 1919-1933.Robert K S 00:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure, but the 1922 year used here is consistant with this and this listed as references here stating that Balto died in 1933 at the age of 11. Those references can be wrong, of course, but I suggest we trust them for now unless someone knows anything more definite. Shanes 00:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Those links are bad. Fortunecity was a personal website anyway, hardly a reference piece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.6.90.47 (talk) 16:30, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm surely no expert on this subject, but I notice that nowhere in the article does it clearly state what breed of dog Balto was. I presume he was a Siberian Husky from the user's note seen above, and the article has a link for "husky," but that leads to a disambiguination page that includes a number of dog breeds that use that name. Forgive me if I'm being obtuse, but perhaps this article would be improved by clarifying this? --Lvthn13 02:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The only book I have on it (The race to Nome, Kenneth Ungermann, 1963) just says Balto was a husky ("Shaggy-coated husky"), with no clear statement on what kind of husky he was as I can see (just skimmed through a few chapters to check). Togo is stated as being a Siberian Husky, though, and I would assume Balto was one, too. But as I'm also no expert on this, I am reluctant to just put it in the article without any source for it. Maybe I'll find it somewhere some time, or maybe anyone else know? Shanes 02:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Husky was (maybe is) often used as a general term for Arctic dogs. A source I have states that Togo was a Siberian Husky owned by Leonhard Seppala, and that Balto was a Malamute used by Kassen in one of the teams of Seppala's freighting company. Since I have this source, I'm going to update the article accordingly.≈Krasniy^t/_c 23:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, according to The Cruelest Miles: The heroic story of dogs and men in a race against an Epidemic by Gay and Laney Salisbury, Balto was a Siberian Husky. The book specifically deals with the 1925 Serum Run, unlike the source you provided.--Coaster1983 01:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

its Leonard Seppala not Leonhard Seppala 184.97.67.94 (talk) 01:09, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Actually, the source I provided does specifically deal with the Serum Run, as it is an important part of the Malamute breed history. :) ≈Krasniy^t/_c 20:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

This editing of Balto's breed is going nowhere fast. Obviously, there is some dispute over his breed due to all the misinformation that has been published over last 85 years. I have seen books that said he was half-wolf/half-Eskimo Dog, Alaskan Malamute, and Alaskan Husky. In the 1995 animated film, Balto, he was portrayed as a wolf-Siberian Husky hybrid. The Internet has only magnified the misinformation. I am afraid the source that Kransniy provided is incorrect, as is the page on Balto on the Central Park website.

Balto could not have been a Malamute because Leonard Seppala did not breed Malamutes in the 1910s and '20s. He only bred Siberian Huskies.--Coaster1983 21:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Balto was not Seppala's dog. He was Kassen's dog. I will edit it to say that some sources one thing, others say the other. I would not say that my source is absolutely incorrect however,≈Krasniy^t/_c 20:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your edit since I cannot fully prove that Balto is a Siberian Husky, although I am certain that he is. Balto and all the other dogs on Kassen's relay team were owned and bred by Seppala. Kassen was a dog driver that worked for the same mining company as Seppala. The mining company used Seppala's dogs.

--Coaster1983 01:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC). --Coaster1983 01:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

To belatedly footnote this; as stated elsewhere one of Seppala's dogs from the serum run, Yukon Jad, was actually the founder of the Kotzebue Malamutes... Harami2000 (talk) 23:50, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Anchorage statue not Balto?

The Anchorage, AK article says that the statue is mistaken for Balto, but is in fact just a statue of an anonymous sleddog. If that is the case, this article and the name of the image need to change. Kovu401 00:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It appears that an anonymous user edited both the Anchorage, Alaska and commons:Image:Statue_of_Balto_in_Anchorage.jpg pages on 31 July 2006 with the new information. That person did not explain the edits to both of those pages but I assume those edits were made in good faith. The original person whom uploaded the image thought it was Balto and so did I. Now that doubt has been raised about the identity of the sled dog, I am going to find out whom the statue is of, if any.

If the statue is of another known sled dog or an anonymous sled dog, then the image will be removed in this article and have the captions edited in the four other articles that the image is displayed on. --Coaster1983 03:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The 1925_serum_run_to_Nome article also says the statue is not Balto but is mistaken for him. Any information on this, proving or disproving it one way or another? I have been wondering. In anycase the images should be edited to at least show consensus between the various articles, even if its to say it's 'commonly been attributed as being Balto' or something. -- Dee 11:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I see no citation anywhere either way, so something like "sometimes said to be" would perhaps be appropriate. Jim.henderson 03:57, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I finally got around to researching the statue. I found a September 27, 1991 article in the Anchorage Daily News, titled "Somethings sort of wild" by Andrew Perala, that states that the statue is a generic sled dog. The following is an excerpt from that article:

“ "Racing in the Footprint of a Legend," corner of Fourth Avenue and D Street This statue of a generic sled dog is a tribute to all the dogs that race down Fourth Avenue each winter (its nose is on the starting line for the Iditarod). While most sculptures in the downtown area are either the product of the municipality's One Percent for Art project or major corporations, "Racing in the Footprint of a Legend" is a gift from an individual. Perry Green, whose family has been in the fur business locally since 1922, said he wanted to give something back to the city that's been so good to his family. Local artist and dog-racing fan Bill Devine approached him with a drawing of a heroic sled dog representing all the race winners in the Iditarod and the Fur Rendezvous. Green liked it. He took the idea to his friend, Mayor Tom Fink, who also liked the idea. Green then wangled it through the various bureaucracies to get the necessary approval. Jacques and Mary Regat sculpted the final version of the dog (the original idea had the dog standing still; this one is running) and had it cast in an Oregon foundry. The project took about year from start to finish. How much does it cost for a private citizen to erect such a monument? Close to $40,000. ”

--Coaster1983 16:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. So, the statue is not about the diphtheria run or any particular dog; it's about the race. This would suggest that the picture doesn't belong in this article, but in the article about the annual race, along with the explanatory newspaper quote. Jim.henderson 12:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Section: In the movie

I'm going to be bold and remove this section altogether, since the information is about the character in Balto (film) and not the real dog, and anyone who wants to know about the fictional dog can go to the article about the movie. I'm moving the section here in case there's something worth salvaging to the movie article. - ∅ (∅), 23:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

“ In the 1995 film produced by Steven Spielberg's Amblimation, Balto is a dog-wolf hybrid, i.e. a half-wolf, who is friends with Boris the snow goose and Muk and Luk. He is also good friends with Jenna and later on they fall in love. He and Jenna have a litter of six pups (see Balto 2: Wolf Quest). Throughout the film, Balto must undergo the torment of being bullied by the other dogs and live as a town outcast. When a husky team becomes stranded in the snowstorm with the anti-toxin, it is up to Balto to get the medcine back to Nome. Kevin Bacon gives the voice of Balto as well as a couple other well known actors. ”

Well done. I agree. Shanes 23:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Why is there no mention at all of the movie? There should be some mention of the film, which wouldn't exist if Balto were never famous. Cernansky (talk) 22:16, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Togo

It's confirmed that it was Togo who really did the majority of the race, Balto only about 1/3 of the distance Togo did, right? Shouldn't this be mentioned? I mean, I read this article and didn't even notice Togo's link the first time around. I know it's supposed to be about Balto, but I think it should be mentioned that it was really Togo who did the most of it, shouldn't it? I mean, this article is very misleading, from my point of view, it glorifies Balto a bit too much and pushes Togo into the shadows even more. Balto's a good dog, and certainly a hero, like all the dogs who ran, but not THE hero... Just a thought.DameGreyWulf

DameGreyWolf,you make a good point. I will be adding Seppala's criticisms of the way the mass media glorified Balto. Seppala once called him a "newspaper dog" because the newspapers of the day got their facts wrong and assigned Togo's accomplishments to Balto.

Anon. IP user, you are entitled to your opinion, but please be Civil and please do not sign your posts with fake user names. Also, please do not make nonconstructive edits to other users posts.Coaster1983 03:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Can any of these recent anonymous edits be supported in any printed text?--Wetman (talk) 07:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The 'Bring Back Balto' section of the text

It seems confusing, I would edit it, but I'm not entirely sure what it's trying to describe...is it some relation to taxidermy?! Or is it the bronze that was created they wanted returning?..PA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.7.109 (talk) 15:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I, too, found this mention confusing. A quick Google of '"Bring Balto Home"' only resulted in two hits, but one stated that this campaign referred to the dog's stuffed remains. Another search of the words 'Balto taxidermy' resulted in a few more hits, so I'm thinking this is accurate info. — Indi ^{[ talk ]} 13:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

www.centralpark.com

www.centralpark.com is one of several websites dedicated to Central Park. Someone is passing from page to page, carefully deleting this link. Rather than get involved in some rixe over this, I'm leaving it deleted. Before someone was inclined to delete it, without a word to anyone, as "spam", it should have been carefully looked at. --Wetman (talk) 18:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Breed issues again

Over the last two months, an editor has changed Balto's breed from a Siberian Husky to an Alaskan Husky. This editor has yet to provide a verifiable source that states that he was an Alaskan Husky. I have changed the breed back to Siberian Husky and will continue to do so if a verifiable source is not provided. --Coaster1983 (talk) 19:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not going to change it at all, cause it is not my area of expertise,but this is where it says that Balto was an Alaskan Husky

http://www.centralpark.com/pages/attractions/balto.html

It is in the first sentence that Balto was an Alaskan Husky A 1995 animated movie was based on the heroic exploits of Balto, an Alaskan Malmute, who braved fierce Artic weather to deliver a badly needed antitoxin to save a community from a diptheria epidemic.

There it is for those who wondered about where it says. --Kopicz (talk) 21:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't get it. Egen if it's true that "This editor has yet to provide a verifiable source that states that he was an Alaskan Husky", i don't see the verifiable source that states he was a Siberian Husky. Is that true because it was stated earlier on Wiki, for a sort of time pimacy? Moreover, if you look at the pictures of his remains in Cleveland, even if it states "Siberian Husky", it is clear for everybody with a little knowledge of dogs' breeds that he was definitely not a Siberian Husky, being almost certainly of mixed breed. 82.58.161.6 (talk) 10:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm also curious to his breed. Maybe he's mixed? He doesn't look like a Husky. An AKC article from 2004 calls him a Malamute though: A famous Malamute named “Balto” lead a team that saved residents of the Alaskan city of Nome from diptheria in the great Serum Run of 1925 Willowforth (talk) 09:08, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

"The Lady Vanishes"

Much of this 1938 Alfred Hitchcock movie takes place on a European train whose dining car has several advertisements posted for "BALTO". I have not been able to make out what the signs refer to. The only Google hit that I get that mentions the advertisement in connection with the movie describes a drinking game--take a drink every time "BALTO" appears on the screen--not very informative. Does anyone know whether the movie is referring to the dog in some way? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.85.76 (talk) 18:13, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

See advertisement for "Les Cigarettes Balto" on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma057oOICRY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.209.129.8 (talk) 00:51, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

"The Lady"

Balto's remains are pictured at the Cleveland Museum of Natural History. Who is the woman in the photo?

Balto's Owner

Over the past couple of months, several different anonymous editors have changed Balto's owner's name back to Gunnar Kaasen, removed information regarding his ownership by Leonhard Seppala, or added false information to make the claim that he was owned by Kaasen. Balto was bred and owned by Leonhard Seppala, Kaasen drove a team of Seppala's dogs for the Serum Run which is why he drove Balto's team. If more sources are needed to back this up on the article side or here to compile them, I'm happy to provide them, but suffice it to say nearly every historical source can confirm that Seppala was Balto's owner during the Serum Run, not Kaasen. He was sold to the production company after their tour of the "Lower 48" and from there sold to the "freak show" exhibit. Kaasen never owned him. Mcfuggins (talk) 23:02, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Upon redoing the article, I discovered that there exists no clear explanation for what happened directly after the Central Park statue unveiling. The claim that Seppala sold the dogs to Sam Houston (the traveling circus operator) out of spite towards Kaasen is at least plausible, because 1) Kaasen did return to Alaska shortly thereafter and 2) Kaasen and Seppala never spoke to each other for the rest of their lives. Houston claimed to an Associated Press reporter in early March 1927 that Kaasen sold him the dogs after his contract dispute with Sol Lesser was resolved, but that makes no sense as Kaasen never owned Balto or the team in the first place. Seppala claimed in his memoir that he sold the dogs to Lesser; while it is true Lesser sold the film contract to a vaudeville circuit, it still does not account for how Houston got ownership of them.

My supposition is that no one wanted to take responsibility for Balto being sold to Houston. Certainly Seppala didn't. Nathan Obral • he/him • t • c • 15:40, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Balto/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Nathan Obral (talk · contribs) 00:49, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: BigChrisKenney (talk · contribs) 06:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello, there @Nathan Obral:! I am going to review this article as part of the October 2024 Backlog Drive.

Let's get this article to GA status!

Awesome and thank you in advance! Will denote my responses with 🦝 and will update throughout the day... Nathan Obral • he/him • t • c • 16:01, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Lead Section

Good, informative and to the point.

Life

Early years

“Balto's birth date is commonly recognized as 1919,…”

• I changed date to year as there is not exact date here or even recorded as mentioned in the same paragraph.

🦝 Sounds good, and yes!

The serum run

“After considering all the alternatives, officials decided to move the treatment via multiple dog sled teams…”

• The phrase, ‘move the treatment,’ could be improved. When I first read it I imagined a doctor on the sled treating a patient or a surgeon in an OR about to perform an operation needing to move locations. Perhaps a better way to convey this information would be; ‘transport the medicine,’ ‘ferry the vials,’ ‘have the serum be delivered by,’ or something similar.

🦝 I opted for "have the serum be ferried via" but might tweak it further.

“Kaasen and his team arrived in Port Safety ahead of schedule, searching in vain for the last team.[19]” *This sentence needs to be rewritten. First, the source mentions that they arrived in ‘Point Saftey’ I’m not sure if that is a land locked place or an actual port, and I haven’t been able to find a location called ‘Point Safety,’ but it would be better to use what the source has.

🦝 I'm wondering if that source misidentified the town or confused it with Port Safety, which was a small settlement on an inlet bordered by Safety Sound to the north and Norton Sound to the south. (Coordinates for reference: 64°27′6.001″N 164°49′32.002″W) Moreover, the AP dispatch in the Baltimore Sun only references "Safety", not Point or Port. Unfortunately I'm also in a bit of a holding pattern due to the IA issues, otherwise I'd check the Ungermann book right away. Let me get back to you on this...

🦝Update: The Ungermann book is in Google Books and a simple search query shows three references to "Pt. Safety". I have corrected the town name accordingly.

• ”…searching in vain for the last team.” I had to go to the source to understand what you meant here. “…but was unable to locate the last team of the run’, or something of the like, would be more clear.

🦝 Done.

“Ed Rohn, leader of this final team,[36] was under the impression Kaasen had been halted in nearby Solomon due to the weather and was asleep.[7][11]”

• I think multiple edits have made this sentence become ambiguous due to it’s structure. Who is asleep? Rohn or Kaasen? I’ve looked at the source listed and it appears that Rohn was asleep because he thought that Kaasen had been stopped at Solomon.

• I would rewrite it to read something like this: “Ed Rohn, the leader of the final team, was asleep at the time due to the impression that Kaasen had been halted in nearby Solomon because of the poor weather conditions,” or something similar.

🦝 Done.

🦝 Update: I have found the Nome Nugget from February 7, 1925, that states Kaasen did not wake Rohn: ...the roadhouse was dark, and figuring it would take time for Rohn to bestir himself and prepare his outfit, and also that it would risk more dogs on account of the cold... and added that source in addition to further copy-editing.

“Prior to arriving, Seppala's lead dog Togo and a teammate broke from their harnesses to chase reindeer but were later reunited with him.”

• Can you explain why this sentence is needed?

🦝 I removed it and put it in my sandbox, it is more appropriate for the Togo article.

I have a question. Was Balto from Nome (the info box says so), is that why Kaasen told him to go home? If that is correct, I believe that should be added to the article as it is not directly mentioned. I do not know much about the serum run, so my eyes and mind are fresh on this. So if I am confused, then other readers will likely be too. Is there any information on how Kaasen got to Bluff? If so, shouldn’t that be added?

🦝 Correct, he was born and lived in Nome, as was Kaasen. Both Kaasen and the dogs were likely transported from Nome to Bluff, but this also requires me to read the Ungermann and Salisbury/Salisbury books again for confirmation. I will look to see if they are available in Google Books or elsewhere as soon as practicable.

Post-race fame: movies, statues, vaudeville and sale to a sideshow

“...in particular Seppala and Togo.[10] “

• Why them in particular? Mentioning why would be better than leaving it up to speculation.

🦝 I removed this part and rephrased it as eclipsing the efforts of the 18 other mushers and 150 sled dogs who participated.

“While claiming to be "amazed and vastly amused" at Balto and Kaasen's celebrity statuses, they came to Seppala's displeasure,…”

• The quote should be cited. Unfortunately Internet Archive is not available at the moment so I was not able to verify it - considering what is happening with the website, you might want to find a new source. Also, this sentence should be reworded as it is not clear. Something like this should suffice: ”While Balto and Kaasen claimed to be “amazed and vastly amused” at their new found celebrity statuses, Seppala’s displeasure….”

🦝 For clarity, I reworded it to Seppala had been "amazed and vastly amused" at Balto and Kaasen's celebrity statuses,[64] but was displeased as it overlooked his lead dog Togo, who went through the run's longest and most dangerous part. Seppala's memoir is on Google Books, and the quote is matched, but it is unfortunately not highlighted in the preview. Still trying to dig around and hoping the IA sign-in can be rectified in time...

"Bring Balto to Cleavand”

Why is this sub-header in quotations? They should be removed if there is not a proper reason.

🦝 It was one of the taglines for the fundraising campaign but admittedly not immediately recognizable; I changed it for now to "Cleveland fundraising effort and purchase".

Added a not to “sourdough’ as it wasn’t immediately apparent even after clicking on the link.

🦝 Thank you, I appreciate that!

I have made edits throughout, some were heavy, most light. You should review them when you have time. Lots of specific things here! A lot of work has been done on this article already. I will continue the review tomorrow to break up the review a bit and allow time to look at these suggestions. BigChrisKenney (talk) 08:40, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Part 2

Later years

Good.

Death, mounting and display

Good.

Return visits to Alaska

Good.

Legacy

Controversy, rivalries and reevaluation

This section says, “Decorated mushers and others in the surrounding area—including Rohn, based on conversations the two men had before leaving Nome—believed that Kaasen's decision to not wake Rohn at Port Safety was motivated by a desire to grab the glory for himself.”

• This sentence sounds like Kaasen decided not to wake Rohn. In the serum run section, it says that Kaasen was unable to find the last team. That source [19] writes, “Kaasen looked around for his relief team. But he searched in vain.” Was Kaasen able to find Rohn and decided not to wake him, or was he unable to locate him? I wasn’t able to get a hold of source [148] to find out what that one has.

🦝 Source [148] is unfortunately offline and incredibly difficult to find. This was originally inserted in March 2021 and I opted to retain it, albeit rephrased. The aforementioned Nome Nugget story does support the narrative that Kaasen found Rohn and did not wake him, and as the Serum Run section has been updated to reflect that, there should be consistency now.

• Yes, I agree that it is sufficient and a good find! — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigChrisKenney (talk • contribs) 23:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Balto vs. Togo

Good.

Cultural depictions

All good.

Genome sequencing

Good.

Notes

Good.

References

Due to the amount of references (167), I will check every 5th source.

I don’t have a problem with the sources, but I am slightly concerned about the amount of references to articles of The Plain Dealer, but the paper seems to be credible.

🦝 The Plain Dealer has been Cleveland's sole daily newspaper since 1982 and dates back to 1842. As of right now, the other two newspapers that were in the city during Balto's life, the Press and the News, do not have online archives as of yet. Because of the lack of the other two dailies, along with the fundraising campaign and that Balto spent most of his life in the city, it will have a slightly outsized role citation-wise.

Images

The images are appropriate and captions are good. I've added another.

🦝 Thanks! I added some alt text for the additional picture. :)

I will come back in a couple of days to see the work done on the updated article, and hopefully give a final assessment!

BigChrisKenney (talk) 01:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Final Assessment

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar):
   b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.

   a (references):
   b (citations to reliable sources):
   c (OR):
   d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects):
   b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):
   b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

Overall:
Pass/Fail:

@Nathan Obral:Very good work on the article! I believe any issues that have been raised have been addressed and rectified. Congratulations on another GA! BigChrisKenney (talk) 00:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.