Talk:Baghatur

Etymology

The etymology of the word is unclear but it seems to derive from Bagh - the Old-Persian word for God, Lord (see Baghdad). Therefore it could have been a word originally minted by the Aryans and consequently borrowed by the Turkic peoples from Central Asia.

This "unreferenced speculation" is moved here in order not to be lost as it might be much closer to the thruth than the rest of the "article". Internedko 08:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

You have created a false cognate without citing to any source. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 14:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The Catholic Encyclopedia cited for the principle that "Baghatur" derives from "Bog" or "God" is inapposite. The work actually refers to the Russian word "Bogatyr". In any event, the work is over 100 years old and dates from a time when understanding of linguistics was largely in its infancy. Miller was not a linguist but rather a folkorist. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It is not a false cognate Brian! The word baghatur has no Turkic etymology. It stems from Bagh/Bagha which existed in Sanscrit and Old Persian and is probably of Arian origin. No scholar so far has tried to give it a Turkic etymology. However, it was mostly used by Turkic peoples and in the areas under their current or past influence. This fact is not a proof for the origin of the word. Etymology is based on linguisting links, word roots,etc. not borrowings. If you read Russian you would have read sources I provided.c.Internedko 15:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Some scholars believe the word baghatur to be derived from Bog (God), as if they were demigods; others believe that the term is derived from Tatar or Mongolian; and yet others, like Orest Miller, from the Sanskrit baghadhara (bhaga, force, happiness; dhara - to give)[3].

Can you please do not bluntly delete someoneelses work. When I have the time I will sort it out and will reference it properly. BTW Russian bogatyr comes from bagatur if didn't know. Iy is pronounsed Baghatyr in Russia. I speak Russian and have many time in the country, I can read the Russian sources therefore and I have some advantage to you in this aspect. So please do not ignore my editions as nonsense. Orest Miller as a prominent folklorist and literature historian noted the word bogatyr appears among the Russian only after the Mongol invasion which means that is was probably borrowed from the Tatars. The Tatars and Turkic people in general also borrowed it from the Arians many centuries earlier. Internedko 16:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Internedko, it is not the first time that I see you engage in original research. Please stop. The Russian word is first used in the Hypatian Codex. Vasmer says: "a loan from Old Turkic *baɣatur (whence Hung. bátor "bold"), cf. Old Bulgar βαγάτουρ, Turkish batur "commander", Mong. bagatur, Kalmyk bātr̥, etc. Derivation of the Turkic words from Iranian languages is dubitable". Case closed. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 18:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Internedko is so right. See germanic Thur —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.23.64.51 (talk) 12:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The Mongolian root may be Beg [Khalkha: beg-batār, beg-bātar] for owl; relation to the Slavic for "hero" indirect; Indian speculative. Etymology Database of Starostin, Bronnikov & Krylov adds the following comment: if the analysis [is] 'demon-hero' [--] is a folk etymology. Denis Sinor does site "bator" for hero etc. LarG (talk) 14:51, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. While the two words are of the same root, the respective articles are not about words, but about certain subjects. Characters of Russian folklore and Turco-Mongol tittles are definitely not the same subject.Beaumain (talk) 18:20, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure whether it is cognate or what, but in javanese there is a word Bathara which means god or deity. --Jadinegara (talk) 07:36, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

References

@Erminwin: like 2 3 days ago, was watching a history podcast, and I saw a screenshot from a secondary source citing Clauson Doerfer? that Baghadur is a derivation of Modu Chanyu. Can't find the video but do you know any of his work or someone citing that? Beshogur (talk) 12:21, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

• Greetings, Beshogur. So far, I've not been able to located any Doerfer's article that links Baghadur to 冒頓 Modun < mək-twən in MC < mǝk-tuən in LHC. Even tho' Beckwish 2009 (p.387) did not cite which source linked Modun to Baghadur. Even so, I think Beckwith's claim is correct, since Starostin, an expert in linguistics, likewise links Baghadur to Modun here Erminwin (talk) 04:49, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

@Erminwin: found it. Can't post a link but you can find it easily in google. From Sir Gerard Clauson An Etymological Dictionary of Pre-Thirteenth-Century Turkish: (F) bağa:tu:r by origin almost certainly a Hunnish (Hsiung-nu) Proper Name, and more specifically that of the second Hsiung-nu shan-yii (209-174 B.C.) whose name was transcribed by the Chinese as Maotun (Maotur with -n substituting for -r) (Giles 7,699 12,221; Old Chinese prob. something like moğ-tun (moğ-tur)). The word occurs only once in the early period and then still as a P.N. but was an early l.-w. in Mong. as ba’atur (Haenisch 184) bağatur (Kozu. 1058), primarily as an element in P.N.s, e.g. Yesügei Ba'atur (Haenisch 184) but also as a common noun meaning ‘picked warrior (selected, elite warrior)’. It is prob. that the transition from name to noun took place in Mong.; Turkish had other words like alpa:ğut with this meaning. The word reappears in Turkish in the medieval period generally in forms with medial -h- which suggest that the immediate source was Pe. S.i.s.m.l. in SE, NC, SC, and NW as batır/batur, R IV 1511-15, which seem to be direct borrowings fr. Mong. See Doerfer II 817 and Studies, p. 19. Türkü vııı ff. atım Bağa:tu:r Čigši: ‘my name is Bağa:tu:r Čigši:’ Tun. IV 12 (ETY II 96): Xwar. xıv maija alp bahatur quwwatlig kišiler ida bergil ‘send me tough warriors and strong men’ Nahc. 151, 9: Kom. xıv ‘brave (man)’ bağatur CCI; bahadur CCG; Gr.: Kip. xv šuca ‘brave’ bahadur Tuh. 20b. 8; Kav. 23, 12; 60, 6. Beshogur (talk) 12:09, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Bahādur

I have removed the Persian (and Indian) name Bahādur from the list, because it has another etymology. The Persian name means "beautiful pearl" (lit.), and consists of the words bahā ("beautiful"; may also be a female name by itself) and dur(r) ("pearl"; the Pashtun tribal name Durrānī, name of the royal family of Afghanistan, has the same root). In a wider sense, it means "noble" or "special" and used to be a popular name for princes - first being used in the Persian epic Šāhnāma. The similarity to the Altaic word Bağ'atur is pure coincidence. Somehow similar to the etymologies of the words Kha'an, Khan, and Khan. While they are all very similar in pronounciation - almost identitical - the first two are derived from the Altaic word Khaqan, first used by the Zhuan Zhuan of Chinese sources (proto-Mongols). The third word, Khan, used by many South-Asian tribal chiefs, is derived from the Persian word Khāndān meaning "tribe" or "family", itself being derived from the Persian word Khāna ("house"). The similar pronounciations and similar meanings are pure coincidence. The Turkish name Bahadır is taken from Persian Bahādur and goes back to a long tradition of Persian names being adopted by Turks. Other examples are Çem (from Jamshid), Derya (from Persian Daryā, "ocean"), Ümit (from Persian Omīd, "hope") or Bahar (from Persian Bahār, "spring"). Tājik 17:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources contradict your claim. See, e.g., [1] Hobson-Jobson Glossary of Anglo-Indian Colloquial Words and Phrases, which traces the etymology of Bahadur to the Altaic Baghatur and links it with the Russian Bogatyr.

If you can cite a reliable source for your alternate etymology, by all means let's cite it. If not, then it's just original research. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

My source was not really academic. Since the Encyclopaedia Iranica (in an article written by C. Fleischer) also supports your version, I gotta admit that I was wrong. Sorry. :) Tājik 20:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Unexplained removal of sourced information.

BöriShad, could you please state why you removed sourced information [2] from this page? --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:26, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Because it's ridiculous to claim Turko-Mongol titles as iranian. Show me one sources that iranians/sassanids others used Baghatur before the arrival of Turks.BöriShad (talk) 14:29, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

BöriShad: That's not really a proper reason to remove sourced information now is it? if you don't have anything special to say, then I see no reason why the information should stay removed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

There are many sources that clearly say IT IS TURKO-MONGOL TITLE yet none says iranian title. Add a ref for iranian origin of the word Baghatur, until then page stays same as beforeBöriShad (talk) 14:52, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Being a Turko-Mongol title doesn't mean it's etymologically Turko-Monoglic. For example the title "bey" is generally explained as a borrowing from Iranian "bag/bay", which derives from Sanskrit "bhaga" ie. Avestan-Old Iranian "baga" (which yet from bhagavan), from which most possibly derives title bhagatur. Most importantly, the alleged meaning "hero" or "valiant warrior", as well "the concept of the Baghatur has its roots in Turco-Mongolian folklore" are unsourced. Is the exclusive relation to the Turkic name Bahadır justified, or maybe OR? Want it or not, its meaning still relates to "bhaga/baga" (lord, patron, wealth, destiny, fortune), and that the Turkic nomad confederations like Bulgars also enveloped Iranian influences and ethnic groups.--Crovata (talk) 20:51, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Baghatur is very Turko-Mongol. Just google it for academical books and if there is any iranian used the title Baghatur before arrival of the Turks I wouldn't change it. Also we already discussed the word beg/bey/bek it's a Turkic word. Even encyclopedia iranica says "Turkich title". so your argument is invalid. Again, a ref which clearly says BAGHATUR is an iranian title or stop changing it. BöriShad (talk) 20:55, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

You and me didn't, and it does not matter if beg/bey/bek are a Old Turkic word if it original derives from Iranian. Your knowledge about the topic is too prejudiced. That's not how we discuss and edit on Wikipedia.--Crovata (talk) 21:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you guys know history far better than me. What a place, sounds like a joke. Everyone claims something like history major and when someone doesn't agree with them, accusing them with ignorance and sockpuppetry. BöriShad (talk) 21:12, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Bey

I applied correction on word etymology. Because the etymology of the statement is incorrectly stated. It was returned without justification. If the editor has knowledge about this, please state in the discussion for reasons.--88.251.216.130 (talk) 15:14, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

1) You deleted current cited content just because you don't like it. You can't delete it just because it does not match your pov. 2) Copy-pasting from Bey, misrepresenting sources and removing current info is not a correction. Just provide reliable etymology sources for "Baghatur" itself. Even that "bey" and other similar articles needs review. Because it seems there are misrepresented sources on those articles. 3) You did same falsification on here too[3]. 4) Don't spam and misuse warning templates/messages on my talk page[4] 5) Your edits, comments and edit summaries are as same as blocked User:BöriShad. I call other editors for a NPOV revision. Because your non-stop disruption on Modu Chanyu proves that your goal is just removing/falsifying Beckwith's work, just like BöriShad who targeted several similar articles (this article, Atabeg, Bogatyr and etc). @Florian Blaschke, LouisAragon, and HistoryofIran:. --Wario-Man (talk) 10:07, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

1- The given wikilink and The information outlined there is totally contradictory. Administrators: You can check and see with your own eyes
2- When you examine Bechwith's source, He stated that the origin of the word is unclear. Original beckwith source. The etymology of the word is unknown, though the first syllable is very likely the Iranian word baγ ‘god, lord’, an element in many later Central Eurasian titles And You have reflected here in a misleading and distorting way. And you say I destroyed the source. Administrators: You can control it at the source.
3- You canvassed the discussion. It is against the rules to ask for help from other editors in this way. And instead of arguing with me, You have provocative and disrespectful statements to prevent me. When the contributions you have made are examined, It's obvious who is the pov-pushing.  Please see WP:TPG and WP:CIV.
4- When we do research on the word of Bey or Beg. Nearly all sources, we see this as a word of Turkic origin. When I did my review, I saw that you violated a rule. This [5] arrangement violates Wikipedia:No original research rule. I give an example here because it is a similar topic. You ignoring to this erroneous arrangement. And You have given warning messages to other users who corrected this incorrectly. Example [6]-[7]. Instead of fixing the mistake, You defend this pov editing. In this example: [8]-[9]-[10]. This makes everything clear. You cannot threaten users. Be respectful to other users. You are the ones who made these erroneous edits. You did the same here. You are trying to justify yourself with misleading statements. Administrators: Please review the changes made and See errors.--88.251.8.4 (talk) 11:31, 4 February 2017 (UTC)