Talk:BMW F series parallel-twin

BMW 800GS 21,000km through South America

The experienced and adventurous Morgans selected the 800GS for part of their round the world tour in 2009. Over 70 days they travelled through Peru, Chile, Argentina ,Paraguay,Uraguay and Brazil. The standard bikes were equipped with Tourace rear tyres and Universal knobby TKC80 front tyres. Gear was carried in alluminium rear panniers which took the brunt of many falls. They had plastic top boxes,soft tank saddlebags and large tank bags with clear map /document pockets on top. The bikes were equipped with GPS which saved a lot of problems map reading on the go. They carried small plastic petrol containers for extra fuel in remote areas. The bikes met every kind of road surface and were considered very reliable considering the rough treatment they got.This was a road based adventure. Problems encountered were:Side stand badly shaped so that the heavily laden bike had to be leaned away from the supporting foot every time the side stand was used-a tricky manouvre ( the Morgans are also in their 50s and are not tall or strong people). The oil cooler was too low and exposed and got covered in mud and salt etc reducing its efficiency. The fan on 1 bike was jammed by a stone so the bike over heated but was able to continue at slow speed. The wheel rim on one heavily ladden bike was buckled but was still rideable. They considered the bike was on the large and heavy side compared with their previous BMW 650 Dakars used in other sections of the world trip. Good points were reliabliity, able to carry a big load ,able to cover long km on tarmac at high speed. Easy to turn off the ABS for use on rough roads. Fuel injection sensors worked very well compensating for use at high altitude(4000m)automaticallly. Bikes handled satisfactorily on all surfaces. Deep mud was an issue due to the weight of gear carried and the compromise tyres. Jo Morgan found that lightening her load improved performance noticeably on loose rough surfaces. The group did not carry camping gear. They covered 81-653km per day at elevations up to 4400m ASL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.97.148 (talk) 22:01, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Just because some people rode a bike on a long distance trip, it doesn't make them notable and worthy of mention. Lots of people do long distance rides (I met a large number this weekend at the UK Horizons Unlimited event) but very few are notable enough to be featured on WIkipedia. If these people are truly notable then write an article about them. --Biker Biker (talk) 06:54, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

G Morgan is the author of 9 books, 4 them on adventure biking in different continents of the world. After becomming a multi millionare he has given away much of his fortune to worthy causes. Each of his trips is part of a campaign to raise awareness in a particular 3rd world project in which he has a special interest. He has always used BMW motorcycles.Im sure folks who are interested in the 800 would be interested in the opinion of a person (and his wife)who are, without doubt, two of the most experienced adventure riders any where in the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.97.148 (talk) 20:49, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Can you cite the sources for any of this? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:53, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Hello Dennis,The bulk of the info above comes from "Up The Andes" J and G Morgan.2010.PIP.The other adventure ride books are Under African Skies.Silk Riders.Back Blocks America.If you Google him there are at least 20 or more refs to his various activities. He is a Kiwi-dont confuse him with the South African politician with the same name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.97.148 (talk) 21:07, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry, but without an article about them on Wikipedia, they really don't warrant mention on this page. --Biker Biker (talk) 21:17, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

The main problem is that the Morgans are not all that famous. Zero news articles about them, zero magazine articles. I found absolutely nothing until I was given the full book titles, and then sure enough, Random House has published them: [23], [24]. Some, like Up the Andes are very difficult to find because they're from a small publisher: [25]. See the full list at WorldCat.

I don't think it is strictly necessary to write the article first, or to even meet notability guidelines at all. As per WP:NNC, "Notability guidelines do not limit content within an article". The relevant policies are WP:UNDUE and WP:RS.

The problem I have with this content is that it's poorly written and uninformative. I'd rather be told in plain English what the Morgans did that was so "epic" and see a clear citation stating author, title, year and page number. And it kind of bothers me that the Morgans alone are the only source, and not a third party. But Random House is a major publisher and we have to presume that they did reasonable fact checking and editing. So I don't object to mentioning the Morgans here, but can we do a better job? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:40, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Here's the Morgan's website. PIP appears to be a vanity press. I can't find reliable sources. Dennis, I suspect Random House New Zealand (not Random House USA) distributes the book, but doesn't publish it. It's telling that the ISBN isn't on Amazon.

A trip of this sort is fantastic for the Morgans but is nearly run of the mill; there are plenty of folks doing treks like this on Horizons Unlimited. tedder (talk) 21:44, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I think an important point is these folks are multi millionares so could buy any bike they like. They selected 800s . In their books they make some criticisms of the BMW network in some countries(price gouging) so they are not BMW mouthpieces. When bits "fall off" you hear it warts and all.They are not sponsered by BMW so they can say what they like, unlike some adventure riders and bike magazines that never seem to test a bad bike. My guess is that the Morgans and their friends have done 300,000km on their BMW's(mainly 650 Dakars) on adventure rides.Few could match that, if any? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.97.148 (talk) 02:13, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Then why haven't any newspapers or magazines paid them any attention at all? Why are their books published through a vanity press? Nobody accused them of doing PR for BMW; the problem is they lack credibility. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:40, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi Dennis. The UK is only a tiny dot in the world. Wikipedia is the world.Ive probably seen 100 or more articles by and about Jo and Gareth in the TV and other media. Can you name 1 person who has ridden in multi continents in a group on adventure rides for 300,ooo km ,written books about each adventure,all on BMWs and not sponsered? One of his adventures was in Antarctica where he did a brief "adventure" ride but not on a BMW-I think it was a Honda. I forgot to mention that on each trip Gareth did regular live broadcasts on the radio (some got on TV as well) whenever he was able.In South America becaues of widespread wifi he was able to continue running his many business interests. Out of interest both his son and his daughter are millionares too.Check Trademe. Success runs in the family genes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.97.148 (talk) 03:58, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

You seem obsessed with these people and think that the the fact that they are millionaires makes them notable. If they are truly notable then write an article about them and link it to this one. --Biker Biker (talk) 07:13, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

As for your assertion that doing 300,000km is unusual, I met at least a dozen people at Horizons Unlimited the other weekend who had done more than that and not one of them is listed on Wikipedia, nor should they be. Every long distance motorcyclist who is listed on Wikipedia is here because they or there trips were truly notable. Ted Simon is listed because his books were major sellers and he was an inspiration to many of the riders that followed. Nick Sanders broke world records. Ditto Kevin and Julia Sanders. Charlie and Ewan were notable in their own right and their trips were major media events. A couple of rich people who bought bikes and went for a ride simply isn't worthy of an article or even a mention on Wikipedia. --Biker Biker (talk) 07:22, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Although if there are in fact over 100 articles about them, then that would most likely meet notability. But they'd need to be cited. See WP:Citing sources. I'm baffled as to why these 100 articles are so elusive. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 14:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Ted Simon is remarkable but of course he never did an adventure ride on a BMW gs800.Ditto Nick Sanders.You have missed the point.The info is in Discussion as it doesnt fit the criteria for the main article on the gs800. It is NOT about the Morgans at all, although I would say that most of Gareth's achievements have been outside motorcycling.The intension is to give some info on the GS800 by a very experienced couple.I never stated they were the world's most experienced adventure riders or world famous or even notable-that is an assumption you made.If you are interested in Gareth he was the guy who donated about $40k to relocate a stranded Emporer penguin back to the Antaractc water with a transmitter attached.See Happy Feet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.198.167 (talk) 22:06, 13 September 2011 (UTC)