Talk:B.I videography

Alternative layout?

Can't say I have the perfect layout in mind, just some ideas...

I think everything listed so far fall under the "music video" category. It would make sense to have them all in a "Music videos" section. But I really don't know what to call the current "Music Video" in that case.

• Music videos
  • As lead artist
    • ????
    • Performance films
    • Live films
    • Visualizers
    • Other music videos
  • As featured artist
• Video albums (if needed one day)
• ...

or simply:

• Music videos
  • ????
  • Performance films
  • Live films
  • Visualizers
  • Other music videos
  • As featured artist
• ...

For top level sections, a lot of videography articles would also include the current Filmography section of B.I's page. For instance, Lady Gaga videography, Beyoncé videography... Many of the videos published on 131 YouTube channel could belong there too, actually (documentary, variety...), if we use these lists as references.

I'm also not sure if it's really a good thing to separate the music videos according to the way they're called. I think it could be more interesting to keep all the MVs for each album together, because it let the reader see the big picture behind the album visual content.

Something like this:

Year	Album	Title		Director	Ref
2022	Love or Loved Part.1	"BTBT" (featuring DeVita)		Suho Lee (Boring Studios)
		"BTBT" Lyric Video (with Soulja Boy, featuring DeVita)		Damian
		"BTBT" Performance Film (with Soulja Boy, featuring DeVita)		Nalim Cho
		"Keep Me Up"
		"Keep me up" Live Clip		Spring Kim
		"BTBT" Live Clip
		"Middle With You" Live Clip
		"Endless Summer" Live Clip
		"Tangerine" Live Clip

Main MVs of lead singles are in bold. I tried to use colors so the types of MVs are easier to differentiate visually. Could be a very bad idea.

- DriftingLill (talk) 12:59, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

@DriftingLill In short, no. Please see my reply at Talk:B.I (rapper)#What should be included in the list of B.I's MVs? (doesn't matter if you dislike my reply there) instead. Your propose table above is full of WP:MOS violations of using bolding unnecessary and adding colouring unnecessary hence it's not suitable for inclusion. In addition, we don't include Album columns, neither does the discographies' of Lady Gaga and Beyonce that you linked above does. Please stick to the existing encyclopedia layout for consistency instead of trying to introduce WP:FANCRUFTy layout because of "let the reader see the big picture behind the album visual content", this is better for Fandom instead, and causing inconsistency. If you're still confused on what is what, whatever music videos that has "M/V" in the video title falls under "Music videos" it's as simple as that, there're no twisting or whatever that is going on here. — 🍊 Paper9oll 🍊 (🔔 • 📝) 05:52, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@Paper9oll: If you see the timeline, your reply on the artist's talk page, after the videography page was brought up, was at 14:10, 2 February 2023 (UTC). The edits you made regarding consistency are at 13:20, 2 February 2023. Whereas the editor posted this discussion at 12:59, 2 February 2023 (UTC), before that discussion. So please try not to be harsh on the editor as we assume good faith here on Wikipedia. Bostonite01310 ^talk 14:06, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@Bostonite01310 I didn't assume bad faith even though my comments may sound rough. My apologies if that offended you, as I only remembered this discussion exists today even I did seen it on that day itself but didn't reply for whatever reason that I can't personally remember now, hence was abit hot-headed in my reply (have reword to be less rough) when I saw this dicussion again today despite already seeing it 2 days earlier. Regardless, I had strikeoff that comment made above however the rest of my comments stay as it's as certain points isn't cover in my reply made on another related discussion on B.I article's talkpage. However do note that WP:FORUMSHOPPING is something that should still be taken note of as an English Wikipedia editor even if this behaviour wasn't exercised here, and also note that opening two related discussions should be refrained even though this proposal discussion concerns this draft however the same topic of interest (section) already exists in the mainspace of which this draft is still a work in progress hence any new content should actually be updated and discussed on the main article instead as any content that exists there would be moved here via the concept of splitting off, unless the splitting of the section(s) is done immediately with WP:BOLD exercise of which this draft wasn't, otherwise any related discussions should go onto the main article's talkpage instead. — 🍊 Paper9oll 🍊 (🔔 • 📝) 14:27, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Apologies accepted. I have only been around for a few month and obviously don't do everything perfectly, but I do know and care about Wikipedia's policies, and I've always tried my best to implement guidelines whenever there are some. I may value WP:IAR and WP:CON a bit more than you do, and the uniformity of articles about K-pop acts a bit less, but I don't have any other intention than writing the best possible encyclopedic article about the subject. I hope we can quickly come up with a solution that will be acceptable for all of us here.

I've checked some famous K-pop acts videography articles as you suggested, and our ideas don't seem to be that revolutionary, actually.

The MV table in Exo videography has an "Album" column. I can see why - they had multiple music videos for the same album in the early years of their career, and this is a valuable context information to understand the list. In B.I case, I think this column is even more necessary for three reasons:

• None of B.I's songs has an article yet, but all his albums do. If albums are mentioned, we can wikilink them and therefore allow the reader to go and find additional information about the video or the song there.
• B.I has music videos for songs (B-sides) that don't meet the notability criteria and probably won't ever have their own article. It also means that readers may not know these songs and won't be able to tell what the video is for unless the album is mentioned as well.
• B.I released three albums and two singles in 2021, so it's not possible to guess which album the song belongs to from the year alone.

BTS videography has a subsection for "Other videos", but it's under the "Music videos" section (implying that these videos are music videos as well) and it mostly lists trailers. Visualizers and dance versions (similar to B.I's performance films) are actually listed in the main music videos tables. This is consistent with the way Wikipedia defines a music video ("a video of variable duration that integrates a song or an album with imagery that is produced for promotional or musical artistic purposes", "use a wide range of styles and contemporary video-making techniques, including animation, live-action, documentary, and non-narrative approaches such as abstract film", "may not have any concept, being only a filmed version of the song's live concert performance") and it would work well in B.I's case, so I think we should do the same. Can we agree on this?

By the way, we're not talking about videos with little to no creative input, like dance practices, or teasers that are made of shots from the MV. In my opinion, these videos shouldn't be listed anywhere. The term "live clip" is deceptive, the ones we're talking about are actual films and we often know who directed them. Of course the audio isn't the studio version or they wouldn't be called "live", but cinematography-wise they can be compared with Onewe's Veronica or Aurora MV, for instance. 131 just like to give other names to videos that would be called MVs elsewhere.

- DriftingLill (talk) 15:09, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@DriftingLill I have no objection if you really want to add the Album column even though I'm not really convince by your explanation above for doing so, given that this notabity guidelines has been applied consistency to various other Korean artists' article. However, strongly no introduction of coloring to differentiate between what is what. And fyi, WP:IAR doesn't applies for this instance when it's going against WP:MOS in which introducing coloring is, in short, nothing overwrites MOS even if you dislike certain MOS guidelines, been there done that. Currently, the draft layout should be correct already, dumb me didn't realise I formatting the heading level for Other videos incorrectly when during consistency cleanup 2 days ago. — 🍊 Paper9oll 🍊 (🔔 • 📝) 15:27, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@DriftingLill I'm fine if you want to merge "Other music videos" to either the "As lead artist" or the "As featured artist" table. However, the two films are not actually an actual song unless I'm blind as I couldn't find any songs or album/EP released by B.I that has such title (not referring to Cosmos (B.I album) but "Keep the Fire Alive" and "Uncertainty, the Beauty of Youth") hence they shouldn't fall under the "Music videos" section and its 3 tables. — 🍊 Paper9oll 🍊 (🔔 • 📝) 15:41, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@Paper9oll Thank you! I'll merge the tables and add the album column. We're still missing a few music videos as well. Not to mention the videos that are not music videos...

Keep the Fire Alive and Uncertainty, the Beauty of Youth both combine several songs of the album Cosmos. I will add notes to explain it, but they are indeed music videos.

I didn't talk about the coloring again because it was just a test. For now I just want to list everything, then we'll see if some formatting adjustments are needed.

What's the exact issue, though? As far as I know, it's not encouraged because it causes accessibility problems, but it's allowed, especially in tables, as long as it's not the only way important information is conveyed (MOS:COLOR). And it is used in many tables, including in BTS videography.

- DriftingLill (talk) 16:20, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@DriftingLill Okay so I just woke up to quite a mess, your merger is partially correct, and I had to correct it. As I have mentioned yesterday, those two film is not a song hence they don't fall under Music videos, I also specifically said "Other music videos" not "Other videos". Yes MOS:COLOR said you could use color in limited capacity however certainly not your proposal above lol, if you want to add 1 color like with BTS one, then you can however I'm not sure for what purpose, please discuss that purpose here first before you're given a go ahead. Currently, I'm not sure if you had updated completely already or not hence if you did, please confirm the status here also, if you haven't please proceed ahead and add (not merge) the remaining, then come back to confirm the status here. We will discuss further once you updated (not merge) completely. — 🍊 Paper9oll 🍊 (🔔 • 📝) 05:13, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

@Paper9oll I guess I should have said that I had to change the order of the columns because the table is no longer readable right now. The columns "Year" and "Album" have so many merged cells that it's not easy to see who directed each video and quite hard to see what the reference is. I'm sure you've noticed the problem as well.

If you don't want to group the Waterfall track films and the Love or Loved Part.1 live films, it's fine. I thought it wasn't really helpful to have one line for each video when all of them were directed by the same people anyway. I will add the missing track films for Waterfall, then. Besides the videos for "Numb", "Illusion", "Remember Me", "Stay" and "Gray", which were directed by AFF, there are five other track films directed by Yeom Woo-jin, for the songs "Daydream", "Flow Away", "Help Me", "Then" and "Re-Birth". Just tell me if you change your mind about this.

As I wrote in my last post, Keep the Fire Alive and Uncertainty, the Beauty of Youth are medleys. Keep the Fire Alive combines "Alive" and "Flame", and showcases the choreography for "Flame". Uncertainty, the Beauty of Youth combines parts of "Nineteen", "Lover", "Nerd" and "Cosmos". I'd like to explain this in a note, but we can also mention the songs in the table itself if you think it's better. Something like:

• Keep the Fire Alive – "Alive" and "Flame"
• Uncertainty, the Beauty of Youth – "Nineteen", "Lover", "Nerd" and "Cosmos"

If you're wondering if a music video can include more than one song, then yes, according to Wikipedia's definition ("a video of variable duration that integrates a song or an album"). Some K-pop acts have done this before. B.A.P were even famous for their medleys, actually. For instance, their music video One Shot M/V includes parts of the songs "Punch", "One Shot" and "Coma".

Waterfall intro film is also a medley of "Illa Illa" and "Waterfall".

Will you put these music videos back in the main table or should I do it? Same question for the column order.

A few music videos are still missing. I wanted to add them today, but I've just spent the little time I had writing this. So be it, there's no hurry anyway.

- DriftingLill (talk) 20:24, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

@DriftingLill As mentioned, please add missing ones first before we discuss further. My answers are no for all your questions above, except for paragraph 2, please add missing ones and no changes required. — 🍊 Paper9oll 🍊 (🔔 • 📝) 00:25, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I really like the new Description column, thanks for adding it! I tried to fill the blanks, but I really don't know what to write in the "As featured artist" table. Did you have something in mind?

I moved Waterfall track films to the "Other music videos" section, because it really didn't make sense to me that videos that only showcase small parts of songs could be seen as standard music videos while Keep the Fire Alive was not. I hope you won't mind.

I think we're nearly done with the music videos, but I'm not sure what to do with the remaining ones.

The song "Lullaby" was released as a collaborative project under Dingo Music, not under B.I's label, therefore the music video for the song is a Dingo Live video. I'm not sure if this video should be included as it wasn't released by 131 and if it is, in which table? I would like to show that it's not a 131 video, but a note might be enough?

B.I also has several live music videos for his singles that were not released by 131. The most noteworthy one would be the video of his "Nineteen" performance for Grammys Global Spin. I don't really want to include such videos, but what do you think about it?

- DriftingLill (talk) 00:15, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

@DriftingLill Maybe you would like to clarify on "but I'm not sure what to do with the remaining ones" as I have no idea what exactly you're referring to. But added "Lullaby" into As lead artist table mirroring B.I (rapper)#As lead artist, no addition notes is required nor should we take into account who distributed and/or published the song, we're not a WP:COI to 131, neither does this draft or any other B.I-related article(s) created and/or yet to be created, be written exclusive on 131-related contents only, we will write on anything as long as it's within the English Wikipedia's guidelines and policies threshold. For "Nineteen" performance video, same thoughts, that isn't suitable here, hence shouldn't be included, I don't see how it's different from music shows (Inkigayo, Music Bank, M Countdown, etc) appearances of which to note that no other Koreans' artists filmography/videography here would actually list those performances, any such inclusion on articles of other Korean's artists are swiftly reverted. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:46, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Waterfall album page was indeed misleading. "Waterfall" was released with the rest of the album and, while it's literally the title track, it's not identified as such in the K-pop acceptation of the term. In the liner notes, only "Illa Illa" has the word "Title" written besides its name. No song from Waterfall was promoted, including "Waterfall". I don't think two MVs are enough to call it a single, even if they were released before the album. Thanks for looking into it and correcting the album page.

The "remaining ones" were the ones I mentioned afterwards (Lullaby, etc.), so you've already answered. Thank you.

I was only wondering about the publisher of the videos because I wasn't sure if a video that was not released by the artist's label could still be called a music video of said artist. It's implied in the definition that the video is created by the artist themselves or on their behalf. For instance, fan M/Vs are definitely not proper music videos. But I think it's fine in Lullaby's case anyway, since the song and M/V have the same publisher. Thanks for adding it to the list.

As I said, I didn't want to include videos such as the "Nineteen" live performance. It's great if you agree to draw the line here. To be perfectly clear, though, there's some real creativity involved in the videos I mentioned, unlike music shows recordings. I wouldn't even bother with videos that are not creative works and absolutely agree they shouldn't be listed in any videography.

- DriftingLill (talk) 16:12, 7 February 2023 (UTC)