Talk:Azerbaijanis/Archive 14

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Lead

In order to be consistent with the article about Iranian Azerbaijanis, i edited the lead accordingly. All constructive remarks are welcome.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 09:33, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

The issue is not with this article, but with the Iranian Azerbaijanis article. I could provide numerous scholarly sources that describe Azeris as a Turkic ethnic group. To question this is unreasonable. The fact that their origins have mixed with Iranians and Caucasians does not negate their Turkic identity. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 10:22, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Our best sources describe this group's identity as being Turkish speaking and Shiite, take a look at what Frye says. A solution could be to write Turkish speaking group in the lead, but the current lead is in contradiction with what is said at Iranian Azerbaijanis since this ethnic group includes the Iranian Azerbaijanis.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:39, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're trying here. Frye is not only source and Frye doesn't even say such thing. Beshogur (talk) 13:21, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

By the way I agree with @Dêrsimî62:'s edit on the lead. Mention of "mixed heritage" is WP:SYNTH. Beshogur (talk) 17:32, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

What i'm trying to do ? unlike you, i just try to go by what reliable sources say. By the way, just stop labeling every content you don't like on Wikipedia as being "SYNTH", you seem to ignore what WP:SYNTH says, because you don't read the sentences until the end, so i quote it for you : "do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C not mentioned by either of the sources." Thus, combining sources is not a problem, but implying conclusions not supported by either of the sources is. If we are not able to find a common ground then i'll open a RfC.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:23, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Those statements are not explicitly stated in the sources. If one reliable source says A and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion This is exactly what it is about "mixed heritage". Beshogur (talk) 18:54, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Didn't think about this when reverting, since it wasn't pointed out by Dêrsimî62. Feel free to change the article if others agree. Aintabli (talk) 18:59, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Again you ignore what Frye says : "The Turkish speakers of Azerbaijan (q.v.) are mainly descended from the earlier Iranian speakers", Thus, they have mixed heritage while being mainly of Iranian descent.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:02, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

[1] Here is the full quote. Plus the problem is combining various sources and adding as one sentence. Beshogur (talk) 19:09, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

No, combining sources is not a problem, as i quoted just before. Please read the guideline yourself if you want.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:14, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

And again, you don't read the sentences untill the end ... it says "do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.", but Frye explicitly says that Azerbaijanis are mainly of Iranian descent.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:12, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Not only are you wrong by mentioning Azerbaijanis have a supposed Iranian origin you’re also stupid to be mentioning 1 source as the only indisputable one. Frye has been criticised numerous of times for that claim. The only ones that actually believe it are Iranians like yourself and the ones that are editing most of these pages. coming and spreading Iranian propaganda and trying to paint Azerbaijanis as an Iranian people when they clearly are not has got to delusional and childish on your part. Altynordu (talk) 13:50, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Also here are some other opinions of professors on the matter of the origins of Azerbaijanis.

Professor Karl Kaser wrote,

“Turkish and Azeri people today are considered the descendants of these arriving Turkish-speaking populations. Turkic presence in the Caucasus dates back at least to the seventh century and became stronger with the arrival of Oghuz Turks who appeared in present day Azerbaijan around the ninth century and are probably the ancestors of the modern day Azeri population.”

Historian Grigorii Filippovich Chursin said that,

“Azerbaijani Tiurks are the descendants of Turkish tribes that at different times penetrated the Caucasus and settled there: a large part of them settled in Transcaucasia in the 13th century, after the great Mongol Turkish invasion. In 1258 Hulagu-Khan sent to Transcaucasia more than 150,000 families of Turkish narodnosti from Asia. The name Azerbaijani Turks refers to the fact that most of the Turks in Transcaucasia passed through the neighboring Persian province of Azerbaijan, where they even now comprise the bulk of the population”

if we go by your logic then it wouldn’t be right to call the modern day Persians Iranians, considering the original inhabitants of those lands were Elamites and other aincent groups until iranic steppe pastoralists came and iranified the area. Altynordu (talk) 13:54, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I have nothing to say to somebody like you, who is only here to attack fellow Wikipedians that disagree with them and distort what reliable sources say. Done with you.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:36, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Where is the distortion? Instead I accusingly say that with no backup I find it that it’s you who are attacking me. Altynordu (talk) 18:12, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

None of those sources, Kaser (specialized in southern European history) or Chursin (over 100 years old) are expert sources for this topic, they cannot challenge prominent expert sources like Frye or de Panhol, both specialized in Persian history, but of course, since Kaser and Chursin fit with your panTurk agenda, you are trying to use them. As i said above, i have nothing else to say to an editor who is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia and keeps insulting other users here (i was not the one who said you are stupid, which is clearly a personal attack). Good bye and good luck.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

And again here you are wrong kaser specialized in Balkan and south Caucasian history. And again you have edited away something that doesn’t fit your narrative it’s embarrassing. And both these sources are new both being from 2021 why are you removing sourced material. Chursins research was republished with modern evidence backing it or else the university wouldn’t have published it.^[27] Don’t do this again or you’ll be reported. Altynordu (talk) 16:27, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

For the record, Altynordu has been indefinitely blocked as WP:NOTHERE. Aintabli (talk) 22:32, 12 January 2024 (UTC)