Talk:Ayam goreng

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Scope of the article

This article about Ayam Goreng initially referred to the Indonesian-style of fried chicken. Thus, the short description should remain the same to preserves its originality. Migration history of the indegenous people of present-day Indonesia to another Southeast Asian countries played its significant role of Indonesian influence to the Southeast Asian cuisine, including this fried chicken. Summarized version is preferred because it is more encyclopedia-friendly than long-winded version to describe the same exact thing. Eiskrahablo (talk) 11:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An article entitled "Ayam Goreng" cannot be restricted to the Indonesian style of fried chicken. Ayam Goreng is not a dish, it is a term in Indonesian and Malay for any kind of fried chicken, including Ayam Goreng KFC and Ayam Goreng Korea etc. The term Ayam Goreng is in fact not known outside of Indonesia and Malaysia, so the whole concept could as well be merged into Fried chicken, section "Indonesian and Malaysia". It makes little sense to have separate articles for a generic food preparation style by translating a term into other languages (why not Brathänchen or Tori no karaage?).

And no, the technique of deep frying did not originate in Indonesia and was subsequently brought to Malaysia. Way before the two countries even existed as nations, people fried their food in hot oil all over Southeast Asia. Don't confuse this trivialty with real original Indonesian dishes such as rendang or gudeg, which have spilled to their neighboring country with the 20th century migrations of people from Jawa and Sumatra to the Malay Peninsula. –Austronesier (talk) 12:23, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Haleth, Davidelit, Xcelltrasi, and Gunkarta: Your thoughts? –Austronesier (talk) 12:32, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Ayam Goreng" can be both classified as the term and the cooking-style as well. As a term, it is not restricted to Malay and Indonesian only, that's why I summarized it. And the fried cooking techniques practised in Southeast Asia also can be credited to the ancient empires that ruled Southeast Asia including Majapahit and Srivijaya that has influential power in Southeast Asia. And furthermore, by saying that the indegenous people of present-day Indonesia migrated to Malay Peninsula happened only circa 20th century is a huge misleading idea, because Srivijaya and Majapahit empires itself can be traced back as far as circa 6th century. Eiskrahablo (talk) 13:20, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Austronesier, thank you for the ping. Your observations are spot on. As editors, we should operate with the notion of neutral point of view, no original research, and verifiability being the foremost of our considerations, as these are site policies which are described as "non-negotiable". Based on a perusal of their edit history and the fact that they have been repeatedly subject to temporary blocks by administrators due to a history of edit warring and sockpuppetry, I formed the view that Eiskrahablo is not here to build an encyclopedia and their editing pattern still revolves around pushing a nationalist POV over what they believe to be elements which are exclusive to Indonesian culture: we can observe this at satay (where they purposely altered a direct book quotation without a valid cause as part of their POV pushing, which is in direct violation of WP:V), ikan goreng and several other articles which have the same names in Malay and Indonesian. Invoking a "grandfather clause" is not applicable or appropriate since we are writing about an encyclopedia article which describes an ongoing cultural element, not a matter concerning legal jurispudence or a history textbook taught in a curriculum specific to Indonesia.

Redirecting this article to a mere section under the main fried chicken article is self-defeating, in my opinion. We are afterall, writing for a global audience, and the topic for fried chicken as prepared and consumed in a manner typical of certain Southeast Asian countries which share cultural links can be done justice for readers if proper research and writing is set as the goal. While ayam goreng is indeed a generic term for "fried chicken" in Malay and Indonesian, it does denotes a certain cooking style in traditional cookery of the aforementioned countries and there is a class of native "ayam goreng" dishes in both Malaysian and Indonesian cuisine which can be listed and discussed. There is no reason why the contents cannot be reorganized in the same manner as satay, where each relevant country gets their due under their own section. Incidentally, Karaage does have a standalone article, though admittedly the scope for "ayam goreng" would be wider. Haleth (talk) 13:29, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Haleth: Please take my merge suggestion with a grain of salt. As long there is enough to say about it, the topic of Fried chicken in the Malay world certainly can have a page of its own, with sections about national and subnational variants (the latter do abound in Indonesia!). What needs to be handled is the battleground mentality which haunts this and other articles. E.g. Eiskrahablo's definition of "summarizing" essentially entails the elimination of explicit mention of any countries other than Indonesia. That's classic WP:NOTHERE. –Austronesier (talk) 13:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Austronesier: I am also disturbed by their assertion that somehow the modern technique of deep frying in the Malay world is most certainly innovated by the civilizations of Srivijaya and Majapahit, without citing any evidence from reliable sources which authoritatively makes such a factually implausible claim, and that therefore in their view any articles about food with the adjective of "goreng" must be an exclusively Indonesian topic due to the implication that the current extent of Indonesia's borders encompasses much of the ancient empire's former territorial extent. Nevermind the fact that modern Indonesia as established in the 20th century is about as similar to the aforementioned empires as the modern Italian republic is to Ancient Rome or modern Egypt to ancient Egypt, which is...not very. Haleth (talk) 14:05, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree with @Austronesier:, this "type" of fried chicken is most correctly shared between Indonesia and Malaysia. Owed by the same naming (that Bahasa Melayu and Bahasa Indonesia kinship) and also similar characteristics. However, I do oppose the suggestion to merge this article into fried chicken and place it under subsection. Specific article of dish, especially if it already elaborately written and having well references is honoured in wikipedia. For example nasi lemak, nasi uduk and nasi liwet deserves their own pages, despite they all can be categorized as coconut rice. Gunkarta talk 16:31, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Gunkarta: As I said above, please don't be distracted by my rather loose "could as well be merged"-idea. Sure we can keep and expand this page. Most important is, we get a permanent consensus about how to present the basics of "Ayam goreng" and similar articles in the lede and infobox. –Austronesier (talk) 19:06, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]