Talk:Australian Cattle Dog/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

History

Regarding the references for the breed history issue. Dogs called Smithfields are regularly available for purchase in Australia. Put "smithfield dog" into Google to see what I mean. the first Google reference seems to confuse the issue as much as it clarifies. So a reference is required to support the contention that Smithfield breed is extinct. Since the Smithfield extinction claim seems to be spurious the collie extinction claim is also questionable. I'm not disputing that the breed has collie and Smithfield ancestry, but ancestral doesn't mean extinct. I am disputing outright the claim of dalmation and bulldog ancestry as verifiable facts. The rest of the article refers to "supposed" or "believed" Dalmation ancestry, which is as it should be because no evidence exists for such claims. So all three references are required because there are three separate claims being made by this one contributor, none of them seem plausible, and any one, all or none could be correct.Ethel Aardvark (talk)

What's a Halls Heeler? No reference in the article, except for the mention in the intro section.Dick Holman.Archolman 22:28, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Covered briefly in the Australian hstory "Thomas Hall crossed his Drovers Dogs with dingoes he had tamed and by 1840 was satisfied with his resultant breed. During the next thirty years, the Halls Heelers, as they became known, were used only by the Halls. Given that they were dependent on the dogs, which gave them an advantage over other cattle breeders, it is understandable that the dogs were not distributed beyond the Hall's properties. It was not until after Thomas Hall's death in 1870, when the properties went to auction with the stock on them that Halls Heelers became freely available." Marj (talk) 01:53, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Replacing photos

Replaced perfectly good photos removed during frenzy of editing. With the variety of coats & markings & activities, I don't think it hurts at all to have them all here. Took puppy out of main box because it doesn't show what the dog looks like very well, which other shots do much better. What on earth caused this sudden frenzy of editing this page, anyway? Elf | Talk 00:21, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That was my doing. Appologies if you feel I was a bit to enthusiastic with my delete key. I still think that there are a few too many images (and oddly positioned ones at that) relative to the text in this article and I would advocate removing at least a couple. I will leave it to those more knowledgeable than myself, though. --DaveC 00:35, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ah HA! So it was YOU! :-) I think that actually the article is probably too short and could have more info, which would spread out some of the photos nicely. They could probably be rearranged a little better here. Maybe I'll try. Elf | Talk 00:50, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

More to it than that, Elf. It turns out there's been a discussion of the page on our 1000-member email list, Australian Cattle Dog-L (ACD-L). Most did not understand the Wiki concept. But there are strong objections, well-founded I think, to the conformationally imperfect specimen at the top of the web page. In particular, the docked tail is troubling to many. OK to solicit a proper replacement? Jimhutchins 03:28, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yet there are quite a few cattle dogs out there with docked tails and the markings are not uncommon. IMHO if someone wants a "conformationally perfect" representation in all photos, they can go to the AKC or FCI or whatever site. I would hope that this article is about real dogs, not just show specimens, despite the fact that we highlight links to the various breed standards. But I am showing my extreme anti-show-breeding bias. I am also not in favor of cropping or docking. So how about using the red speckle that we've already got up into the table? But I would definitely leave in the photo of the docked dog because I think it is representative of a small but significant number of ACDs today. Elf | Talk 17:45, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Jim, is it just the tail? or are there other significant differences between the photo and a show-type dog? If the later, it would be good to have a show dog for comparison (yes, I know, more photos, but they do give so much info). Moving the un-docked photo up sounds good to me - such a fine tail :) -- sannse (talk) 12:48, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Article Consistency

Hey, I've been trying to organize the dog breed articles into the same structure. Where do you think the section on dog activity should go? Health? Temperament? Should it be it's own cateogory?

More at Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/General - it's own section looks right to me -- sannse (talk) 20:47, 21 March 2005 (UTC)

Thanks..!!

Thanks Ellen, building a better ACDWikiPage...WikiDon 20:25, 6 May 2005‎ (UTC)

ACD's in the Movies

I think this is a hoax: "*Dog in Benji's Return: Back Again, (1993)" cite the source or yank it. WikiDon 04:16, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to yank it, since I couldn't find a reference anywhere when I looked earlier, but figured I'd give it a little chance. Elf | Talk 05:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

What about makin a section on ACDs in the movies, something in the line of a Filmography section? May I begin? - Mad Max 2: The Road Warrior = ?? - Last of The Dogmen = Zip And so on.

Thanks for the enlargement of the article, by the way. Yanaco (talk) 00:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Benji Movies

I found this article on the Internet ([1]) that says there was a 17-year gap in the Benji movies, from the creator of the series, Joe Camp. So from 2004 MINUS 17 = 1987:

Benji’s Return A big comeback to the big screen for a mischievous mutt, By Steve Dale Benji is back. The feature film “Benji Off the Leash!,” which hit theaters earlier this year, will be released on DVD and VHS on December 28. And in the true spirit of the season, the movie’s success is a miracle: Creator Joe Camp produced and distributed it independently, without Hollywood’s help—a feat almost unheard of.

However, Camp, who is Benji’s original producer and creator, is barking up against an even bigger challenge. He explains that three studios expressed serious interest in producing a new Benji film. The problem is that industry bigwigs wouldn’t do the deal unless they could have complete control. The studios also made it clear they’d give the kids who watched Benji what they want, or at least what Hollywood perceives kids want. “That would mean poop jokes, four-letter words, and excessive violence,” says Camp. “I’m sorry, but I wasn’t about to compromise what Benji stands for.”

When it comes to movie stars with paws, only Lassie may be better known than Benji. Camp literally gets tears in his eyes as he tells a story about one little boy in France who lit up as he met Benji in person, then got a big wet kiss from the canine star. Of course, Camp has hundreds of stories just like that one. Well, not quite like that one. He says, “That little boy was me and how I was moved by Disney’s ‘Song of the South.’ I knew that when I grew up, I wanted to make movies like that—movies people remember—movies that touch people.”

The dog who actually inspired the Benji movies was Camp’s own Yorkshire terrier, Sir Benjamin of Courtney. Watching his dog’s interesting facial expressions one day, Camp had an epiphany: “The thing about Lassie is that while the audience liked Lassie, their heart was with Timmy. Those stories were told from the point of view of people. I realized right then and there that dogs have a point of view.”

Try pitching that to a movie studio. Camp did, and they laughed. Several years later, in 1971, he had formed his own production company. He never lost his determination to make a Benji movie, and began raising his own funds for just that purpose. “Benji” made it to the big screen in 1975, and 21 million people were touched, just as Camp hoped they would be. It was the surprise movie hit of the 1970s.

A second feature film, “For the Love of Benji,” followed. The scruffy star also appeared in several of his own TV specials. In 1980, a third Benji feature film was released by 20th Century Fox, “Oh Heavenly Dog,” starring Chevy Chase, Omar Sharif, and Jane Seymour. And in 1987, the fourth Benji flick, “Benji the Hunted,” hit theaters.

Certainly, there have been all sorts of reasons to explain why mixed-breed dog numbers have gone up since the 1980s, but arguably, Benji is an influential factor. To this day, it’s not unusual for people to go into a shelter and ask for a “Benji-type” dog. In fact, for the filming of the new “Benji” movie, Camp searched shelters nationwide, determined to use a homeless pet. One of his goals in creating the movie was to increase awareness about how wonderful shelter animals are.

Public popularity of Benji never diminished. But there were some behind-the-scenes issues that slowed the Benji machine. In 1988, Camp’s first wife, Carolyn, suffered a stroke. They decided to step out of show biz for a while to enjoy one another. Camp signed a partnership to keep the Benji name and image alive while he spent time with his wife until her death in 1997. But the business partnership went sour.

After his wife’s passing, Camp, determined to save the Benji name from languishing, wrangled back control of the company. Camp says it took four years and $1 million in legal fees, But in 2001, he and his second wife Kathleen were determined to roll out Benji all over again. When it was released earlier this year, the movie didn’t exactly make the splash he anticipated on the big screen. In fact, each of previous Benji movies outdistanced this one. Camp says what’s really sad is that “Benji Off the Leash!” might be the best of the bunch.

Of course, the movie landscape has changed since the last Benji movie 17 years ago. It is rare to find a producer who goes it alone on both production and distribution and succeeds at reaching a mass audience. “Well, Mel Gibson did it,” says Camp.

But the audience who did see the film, and many critics, including Roger Ebert, loved this Benji film. Joe and Kathleen now spend months crisscrossing the country with the famous pooch, living out of a suitcase to hype the movie the old-fashioned way. They get friendly receptions wherever they go.

Was bringing back Benji worth all this? Camp says, “Just say Benji—and people know who he is, and they still smile. That’s because Benji has always stood for certain values that we were never willing to compromise on.” For more information: http://www.BenjiReturns.com.

This matches IMDB ([2]):

• Benji (1974)
• For the Love of Benji (1977)
• Benji at Work (1980) (TV)
• Benji Takes a Dive at Marineland (1981) (TV)
• Benji, Zax and the Alien Prince (1983)
• Benji the Hunted (1987)
• Benji: Off the Leash! (2004)
  • aka "Benji Returns: The Promise of Christmas" - USA (working title)
  • aka "Benji Returns: Rags to Riches" - USA (working title)

Appearance

I uploaded a great pic of a blue heeler (here), and then saw that this page already has seven pictures. And they're good ones, too. Should I fit my new blue heeler pic somewhere, or should I not bother? – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 22:14, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

It's a nice clear shot, and shows the dog's face, too, which is good. Did you take the photo? Elf | Talk 23:44, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yep. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 14:42, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)

I have also uploaded a good pic of a heeler. This is my parents' dog, and I took the photo. I thought this one was remarkable as she's a very "petite" dog- she's only about 18 pounds and about a year and a half old. She has very fine facial features, but a stocky body typical of heelers. I thought maybe this picture would help show more variety in the breed. Should I try to place the picture somewhere in the article as well? -jmootz20 19:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Your picture is gone, Jmootz20! I wanted to see. :) Here is a picture of my heeler Roxie: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SaradoraCattleDog.jpg She's also fairly petite compared to other cattle dogs, although not as small as your parents' dog. Roxie was 29 pounds when we got her (she's about 34 pounds now). Like a lot of mammals, females have a tendency to be smaller. An 18 pound cattle dog is small!

Saradora (talk) 23:37, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Replaced main photo

Well, Harry has never been shown, and maybe he wouldn't qualify. I couldn't get him to stand nicely, particularly after my neighbour threw a couple of delicious meat patties over the fence.

But, honestly, as an Australian, I was offended by the sight of a heeler with a docked tail taking pride of place in the info box. The Blue Heeler is an Australian icon, so to speak. It's gotta look like a real dog. I intended to move the other pic down to the gallery, but I seem to have lost it. I'll have another try at finding it.

--Amandajm 09:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi everyone. This is probably trivial, but... should the main photo be of a blue heeler instead? I am under the impression that blue heelers make up the majority of Australian Cattle Dogs, but I could be wrong. Comments are welcome.

~~saradora —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.108.191.111 (talk) 23:13, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

One more thing. Three of the photos are of red heelers; only 2 pictures are of blue ones. The "double mask" picture is not the best picture of a double mask, either. Is there anybody willing to upload a better picture of a "doubled masked" heeler? That one is handsome as heck, but maybe a better photo would do the trick.

~~saradora —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.108.191.111 (talk) 23:19, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

The nature of the beast

I removed the word "timid" from the description of the Cattle Dog's temperament. I've known a lot of heelers, but never one that answered to that description. "Wary", yes, definitely! But timid, no! I've known cattle dogs that were morose, sinister, sneaking assassins. I've known dogs that were bloody-minded turkey-gobbling chook-pen raiders. I've known absconding cattle dogs that were always down a rabbit-warren at milking time. I've known a low-down, foul-tempered one-eyed brute that earnt himself the title "the Red Peril of the Western Plains". But I've never yet known one that was timid! That's Kelpies, Mate! Woosy little brown dogs with an uncanny ability to manage sheep.

Amandajm 04:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Justice?

I just saw the photo of the ACD in the infobox at the start of the page. Do you believe this photo does the breed justice. Personally I don't think this dog embodies the majour qualities of ACD's. Especially when its the main representive image of the breed in the infobox. Who here supports a image change? I know I do. 'Culverin? ^Talk 07:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that this photo does the particular dog justice. I'm not quite sure what you regard as the major qualities of ACDs. This animal seems to think he's a pretty good ACD. By I am all for finding a photo in which the dog is both a good representative of the breed, and it is also a good photo, ie. it shows the dog to advantage, including face, tail and so on.

Problem is, what are the present options?

• When I put the pic of Harry up, it replaced the beautiful dog with the docked tail....righto? Definitely a no-goer!
• There's the beautiful red dog.... but he's red, not blue, and I think that blue is the most representational. They have always (where I come from) outnumbered red heelers as working dogs by ten to one.
• There's that magnificent show dog which is absolutely perfect,, but the photo doesn't show his face.
• There's little Cutesy-Pie with his tail turned up......, and Chubs, and some pics of dogs doing activities, and that poor photo of a very nice dark coloured doggie that doen't show any of the required ginger points!

What we require is a really good photo of a really good dog.

Meanwhile, I'll look for a better picture of block-headed Harry! If anyone can provide a better picture of a real cattle dog, I won't be offended in the least.

--Amandajm 12:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Abbreviation to ACD

This is the only article where I've seen such abbreviation of the subject matter! Surely in place of ACD cattle dog could be used throughout?

I understand Australian Cattle Dog is too long but cattle dog is no longer than border collie.

Other than that it's a pretty good article. If it were to be reviewed for FA or A quality status though, they would demand in-line citation so we know just which elements come from each of the two references.... and two references is pretty slim pickings for anything better than B-class.Garrie 06:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd say cattle dog was too vague... a cattle dog is any dog used for working cattle.Stick dog (talk) 07:35, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

reverse-blue

from the above discussion - I think it would be well worth discussing in the /*appearance*/ section that there are distinct features which breeders are trying to avoid - such as hip displasure and the reverse-blue colouration. And if you have a good photo of a healthy-weight reverse-blue then it would be good to include!Garrie 06:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Uh-oh

The fourth paragraph in the history section seems to contradict itself - "the Cattle Dog was crossed with the Dalmatian ... when in fact no dalmatian blood was introduced." Clarification? I am a lemon 04:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Layout

The layout of this article is just plain ghastly. We have two boxes, on on the left and one on the right, which if seen on a wide screen leave a great gap of nothing in the middle. It seems to mme to bbe completely superfluous to have two boxes aboout one breed.. cannnot the information be combined?

Amandajm (talk) 11:25, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

B-class?

Surely an article this length with all of six citations (from four sources) is not B-Class. The WikiProject Dogs guide to assesment for B-class articles states as the first point: 1.The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations where necessary. While I am not contesting the article itself, which is well written and doesn't disagree with anything I have read elsewere, as it stands it can't be called B-Class by the WikiProject's own criteria. I am a lemon (talk) 07:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Contradiction re: colour

Paragraph 2 under Coat and Colour says, "Red is the genetically dominant colour". Paragraph 3 in the same section says, "The more common colour of the Cattle Dog is blue". This is either incorrect or needs clarification. If red is genetically dominant, then there will be more red Cattle Dogs than blue. The opposite can only happen if the gene for red also brings a higher incidence of fetal death or if there is a wide-spread and continued breeding program for blue coats. If one of these (or something else) is true, then it should be explained in the article. If not, one of those two sentences should be removed/rewritten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.26.192.237 (talk) 16:54, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The Agouti gene series controls whether the dog is red or blue. A is perhaps lost in the cattle dog - these were the all blue dogs with no tan - a^y gives red hair and a^t black and tan hairs. a^ya^y or a^ya^t gives a red dog. a^y (red) is dominant but incompletely dominant to a^t. An a^ya^t red often has black hairs in his coat. a^ta^t gives a blue coat with tan markings.

Red being dominant does not mean that there will be more red dogs than blue. Red being dominant means that red dogs can carry the blue gene, blue dogs don't carry the red gene. Two red dogs can have blue pups. A red and a blue dog can have a one in four chance of a red pup, and a 3 in 4 chance of a blue pup. Two blue dogs will have blue pups. Mdk572 (talk) 19:30, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Minor alteration Popular Culture

Added Fallout 2, as Dogmeat appears in Fallout 2 at the random encounter "Cafe of Broken Dreams".

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.96.220.241 (talk) 18:47, 23 September 2009‎ (UTC)

Citations

I'm adding information from 'academic' sources based on research and giving the citations. There is a good deal of mythology surrounding the ACD and different histories in different countries. Unfortunately incorrect information is repeated in a lot of places. Marj (talk) 03:05, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Size

These sentences don't belong under the heading 'Size' "An Australian Cattle Dog is a well-muscled, compact dog with a dense coat of coarse, rather oily hair with a slight ruff, and fine, almost woolly, undercoat. It has a naturally long tail, generally carried low, with a slight white tip." Perhaps it should be integrated into the introduction, or the general discussion on appearance.Mdk572 (talk) 00:53, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I've deleted those sentences - someone may wish to reinsert them in a more appropriate place, but I think the information is already included elsewhere.Marj 23:31, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Review

Many thanks for the patient, detailed work that you put into the review, Casliber. I have learnt much. I was armed with the MoS and the cheet sheets but for some things, like referencing, there are layers of information. Nice to have a guide! Marj (talk) 03:21, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, the following para, "...aggressive dogs" from the preceding section, "Temperament", seems to have got locked in into this braced thing. View in edit mode, & you'll see what I mean. (It took me a while to be able to see my reply to it, then I couldn't see Historygypsies para, until I moved the braced thing into the "Review" section... Dick Holman.Archolman 23:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

"Not an agressive dog"? I lived in Australia for 55years. I have seen dogs of all shapes and sizes. I have never seen any dog as frightening as a Blue Heeler. True, they can be docile, but only in the presence of people that they know. One night, I returned to the home of my friend with him, to find a would-be burglar bailed up in the corner of his garden by his 2 blue dogs, "Ned" and "Kelly" ( the name of a famous outlaw). The man was in tears, shaking with fear, and had soiled himself in fright. Historygypsy (talk) 20:06, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Australian Cattle Dog/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:17, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Right, I am reading through now and am making straightforward changes as I go. Please revert any where I inadvertently change the meaning. Queries below. Also, don't automatically do what I suggest - if you think otherwise please say so and we can discuss. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:17, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

• Looks not too bad on first read though - needs a bunch of minor and highly tedious formatting tweaks which I will do later on.

• this is what I think you meant to do here - it took me a while to learn the refname tag as well.

Many thanks - I looked everywhere for info on the refname tag, I couldn't work out what to do with different page numbers. Marj (talk) 03:28, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

• What I do is place books used in a separate subsection below the inline refs - see coffee which is a page I am working on. Others have different ways of doing this. I also find the cite templates useful for autoformatting and adding extra information (the cite tag at the top right of the edit screen when you click open a page for editing. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Wow! I didn't know that there was so much to know about coffee. Thanks for pointing out the cite templates - lots to take in at once. Marj (talk) 01:38, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The cite templates are good, as they autoformat bold/italics etc. here is how it looks. Got caught up in some RL stuff, but back later. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

More notes - the text is a little repetitive - a challenge is to see if one can remove some of the 'Australian Cattle Dog' s - have a look at User:Tony1/How to improve your writing - I find this sort of stuff fascinating. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Make sure there is as little jumping between singular and plural dog(s) as possible in a given section of text. I changed some to all plural as they flowed better plural than singular.

I was reluctant to remove what others had written, but will do an edit to make it flow a little better, and remove some inconsistencies/repetitions. Wiki referencing conventions are a little different from what I am used to but I think I'm getting the hang of it.Marj (talk) 00:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Make sure all refs go at the end of sentences or after a comma.

 Done Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't feel afraid to edit what has gone before - one of the tenets here is that no-one owns an article. I have had to remove unsourced material from articles I have worked on before. If I find something which sounds plausible andreally adds to knowledge but I really can't find a source, I'll often place it on the talk page or comment it out so it is invisible for easy retrieval later in case sourcing turns up. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

• Among the most popular activities for Australian Cattle Dogs is dog agility. - agility a sport Do you mean agility trial?

I didn't write this but a trial is a competition, dogs can do agility without doing an agility trial. Marj (talk) 00:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

okay. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

• Australian Cattle Dogs have been successful in a range of dog sports including weight pulling...etc. - need to format the references here. I'd do it myself now but it is nearly 1am and I am knackered and need to sleep. My time is limited over the next few days. There are some other references like this too.

Unclear what 'format' is required. These links work like the wikilinks to give additional information, they are not references as such - but show cattle dogs doing the activity. They can be changed to wikilinks if you prefer. Marj (talk) 00:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Changed them to wikilinks to general information on the activity, though I do think the external links to cattle dogs doing the activity provided more information. Marj (talk) 06:24, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The external links can be used as inline references (using the cite format) rather than a plain link - I should have clarified that. sorry. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

• The Characteristics section needs some references for material within it - is it Bently or Bentley as two spellings are seen.

 Done Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't know where the writer got this info, but it could all be referenced to the Australian Breed standard. Marj (talk) 00:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I can't find any 'authoritative' reference for the information on Tom Bentley's Dog, yet. Marj (talk) 06:24, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

"Is better to embellish stroke age wit info on strokes in dogs and ref it there" Not sure how to interpret this. The wiki entry on strokes is about people only, no reference to dogs - the link I gave shows that dogs do have strokes (which has only recently been recognised) Marj (talk) 00:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I removed the bit about dogs dying of strokes - hard to know how common it is with a study of only 11 dogs.Marj (talk) 06:24, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

This often happens on wikipedia - you link article A to article B...and realise article B needs work. Best thing is to put a subsection in hte stroke page on stroke in dogs. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

ACD is an accepted name for the breed. I changed it in response to your comment that the breed name was repeated too often - I used 'they' where it made sense and abbreviated some to ACD Marj (talk) 00:43, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, then I'd suggest noting the abbreviation somewhere up the top of the article near where the name is discussed (even though it is obvious :)) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks, Casliber! Marj (talk) 20:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

• Casliber, can you use the ref name=... tag with the Cite book template? Cheers Marj (talk) 07:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

absolutely (I'd be in real trouble if it didn't work...) Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

• NB - for this site to be considered a Reliable Source, one would best find some notability or affiliation of the website author. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:42, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll look up the site and see what information it provides. Marj (talk) 22:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

It's Katherine Beutow's site - I've added that to the reference. She also has info on the Bentley Mark (above) Marj (talk) 23:09, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Great! Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

• Another minefield to avoid is Original research - I mention this the section:

 Done Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what this means: is it my original Research (non-existent) or Noreen Clark's original research that is not allowed? All of this comes from Clark's detailed research based on primary documents. Marj (talk) 22:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

In 1920 there was one motor vehicle for every 55 people in Australia.[1], so before this most dogs of any breed would have been accustomed to horses. - i.e. the second clause is not mentioned in the car link, but is it mentioned in the next ref further down the page? One has to be careful linking fact A and fact B from two separate refs but combining them in a way not in the original refs.

Also, is there a ref for the material above this sentence as it reads a little conjectural. That is, the material discussing the writings of Kaleski in the para beginning Kaleski's Standard was taken up by... Casliber (talk · contribs)

 Done Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

All of this material is a precis of Clark, though she did not give specifics on car ownership saying simply that given how few cars there were, all dogs would have been accustomed to horses. Does every sentence need a reference? Marj (talk) 22:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh okay, that's fine. I wasn't clear on who was analysing Kaleski. In which case it is good to write it as "Noreen Clark has noted that..." to preface that this is one wirter's view on another. With fact A and fact B, the car bit is good as long as left as a separate sentence. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:23, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

PS: Are there no famous aussies who have them as pets?? hmmm.....[[User:Casliber|Casliber]] (talk · contribs) 13:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done Marj (talk) 02:13, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

There are no Australian books that mention famous aussies having a cattle dog as a pet, it would be unremarkable I guess, and few overseas publications mention Australia at all. I could list a dozen myself, but that's not much good. Marj (talk) 22:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking of other reliable sources such as the Sydney Morning Herald, Age or Burkes Backyard or Better Homes and Gardens something which might have had celebrities on them...I did try searching briefly last night.Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:19, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I did find this in the herald "An RSPCA inspector investigating a cattle dog that reportedly had no food, no shelter and had been tied to the same spot for months found the deprived pooch was actually a concrete statue." I'll continue to search. The local ACD society has a dispute with Don Burke so I won't pursue him but the pet advice section of BHG etc might be productive. Marj (talk) 22:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Is it documented anywhere about a controversial issue...or not notable? Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

It arose out of his use of "Dumpage Rates" stats as an indicator of dog breeds to avoid. ACDs were #2 on the list after Maltese. Then when he did a profile on the breed, and he used a breeder outside the assn. Not sure it made the media, though I could check Kennel Club Publications - I was getting a new dog at the time and it was a hot topic. Marj (talk) 23:06, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Interesting - a high dumping rate would be good to cite and discuss certainly. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:20, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Dumpage rates have to be linked to ownership levels and to IDing in pounds - bit of research to do but it would be interesting. Marj (talk) 23:25, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Scott Cam's Lizzie and Rosie on Backyard Blitz - I'll look for a reference Marj (talk) 23:25, 20 January 2010 (UTC) Simmone Jade Mackinnon http://www.dogslife.com.au/dogs_life_articles?cid=9445&pid=2110323 Marj (talk) 23:37, 20 January 2010 (UTC) Ken Done and Indianna (Will note these here for later) Marj (talk) 00:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

D'oh! (slaps palm of hand on forehead), Scottie Cam's dog was an obvious one.. :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:41, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I've added information on the three's cattle dogs to their wp pages, with references, and provided a link. Marj (talk) 02:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

1. Well written?:

Prose quality:

Manual of Style compliance:

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:

References to sources:

Citations to reliable sources, where required:

No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:

Major aspects:

Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:

Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?

No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA):

6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:

Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

• Images need WP:ALT text.

 Done

Overall:

Pass or Fail: - the alt text is pretty straightforward --> see Wikipedia:Alternative text for images for details on how to do this. I think this has potential to be a Featured Article, and a few more eyes on it by other editors would be helpful. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:45, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Training

I have to get back to the rest of my life for a while but a section on training is recommended by the Dog Project guidelines. It could pull out the various mentions of training under temperament and activities and perhaps deal with the Dumpage factor. I am a member of the Assn of Pet Dog Trainers, and could write this, but like your (Casliber) idea of getting input from others before doing any more. Marj (talk) 05:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Herding Competitions

Re change of image caption

ANKC Herding Rules:

Section 2. Herding Tests and Herding Trials

1.2.1 An Instinct Test is a Test at which a pass gains a Certificate, and is conducted at a sanctioned event by a Club which is an Affiliated member of the Controlling Body.

1.2.2 A Herding Test is a Test at which a pass towards a Title may be gained, and is conducted at a sanctioned event by a Club which is an Affiliated member of the Controlling Body.

1.2.3 A Pre-Trial Test is a Test at which a pass towards a Title may be gained, and is conducted at a sanctioned event by a Club which is an Affiliated member of the Controlling Body.

1.2.4 A Herding Trial is a sanctioned event at which qualifying and championship scores towards titles are awarded, conducted by a club or association which is affiliated with a Controlling Body which is a member of the Australian National Kennel Council.

This is my dog and she and I were competing in a Herding Test - She gained the title HT. Sheepdog Trials are something quite different - I doubt you would see a cattledog in one, though if a pig can win who knows? Marj (talk) 21:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe we need a wikipage on herding trials that are not sheepdogs trials, or an expansion/clarification of the current page to include all forms. Marj (talk) 21:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Noteworthy Cattle Dogs

For future reference

• Skidboot http://www.skidboot.com/
• Sophie Tucker http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7986816.stm
• Ben whose evidence led to a murder conviction in Trace evidence analysis: more cases in mute witnesses By Max M. Houck Marj (talk) 22:03, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
• Blue battles an alligator to protect injured owner. DOG BATTLES GATOR TO SAVE WOMAN, 85, HURT IN FALL Miami Herald Fri Jul 27, 2001 http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0107/articles/010730a.htm http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P1-51820168.html Marj (talk) 22:41, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Pictures

I just went looking at pictures and I found this one.

Can any body explain why this isn't in the article? It really shows what a top dog ought to look like, better than the one that is in the box right now. This dog looks strong, lively, alert, with a strong head and neck and all the rest, just like the description. It shows all the angles of the body. It should be in the box. The picture that's there now doesn't have the strength of this one. He looks like a real champion. DuncanDugan (talk) 07:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

It comes down to a difference of opinion, however I think the one that's currently at the top of the page is a more close up photo, shows the dog's face and gives a better idea of the ACD personality than the show pose. It's also a clearer photograph without the messy background of the show pose one. Marj (talk) 07:37, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

BTW the previous photos in the box were a dog with a docked tail and a red dog with a very ugly head. I have around 1,000 photos of my own dogs and also admin an ACD group on Flickr so I have access to plenty of images. I've also sourced and got permissions from a number of public collections. Marj (talk) 07:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the dog that's in the lead picture right now has a small head and big ears. He looks kind of docile. Maybe hes been nackered. That would make his head smaller as well. DuncanDugan (talk) 10:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Docile is good. Neutering is also good. BTW dogs neutered at at 7 weeks of age show delayed closure of the distal radial growth plate, allowing for an extended period of growth and greater radial/ulnar length so dogs neutered very early may end up a little taller. Neutering at six months or later does not affect growth rate, food intake, weight gain, or temperament. It certainly does not make their head smaller. Marj (talk) 22:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Neutring is good to make a dog docile, if you want a docile dog, or a city dog that doesn't climb over the fence and eat the neighbours chooks. But a dog that has been neutered shouldn't be the example used in the article as to what a dog's correct appearance ought to be. I'm sorry to disagree with you, but neutering before a male animal is fully grown changes it's proportions as well as its aggression. To see the correct appearance of a male ACD you need to have a photo of one that looks really robust and plucky and macho. That is its natural appearance. I think the reason why a neutered dog's head looks smaller is that it's got much less muscle around the back of it's neck and it's jaws. They look finer boned and softer. it is the same as with a neutered cat or a gelding or anything. You can tell the difference. DuncanDugan (talk) 13:34, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

The dog in this picture is a bitch, Wild Willow's Blue Dayqueen So if she looks 'macho' that would be a fault. Marj (talk) 07:07, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Spud - the dog in the box - is from a shelter and is working cattle dog http://www.flickr.com/photos/zingpix/495456507/ Marj (talk) 20:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

when is the best time to breed.She is 2 and in heat(21:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.101.203.182 (talk)

There are so many Australian Cattle Dogs in shelters that I would strongly recommend that you only breed if you believe that doing so will contribute to the breed. This would mean having having her tested for deafness, PRA and hip dysplasia before deciding to breed. Marj (talk) 00:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Additional Reading

All books in the Additional Reading section are specifically about the Australian Cattle Dog. The Stockdog Savvy website does not even mention the ACD, and the accompanying blog has very little information on the breed so I have removed the listing "Hartnagle-Taylor and Taylor, Jeanne Joy and Ty Stockdog Savvy ISBN 101577791061" Marj (talk) 21:06, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

"Australian Cattle Dog"

In Australia the name Blue Heeler is more commonly associated with the dog rather than the name Australian Cattle dog. The article however seems to associate the name Australian Cattle Dog more with the breed. I just feel this may be a misrepresentation of the breed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.0.64.221 (talk) 10:51, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Not sure that you can say that anything happens "In Australia" There are very local terms that are completely foreign to people in other states. The term I've seen and heard most often is simply "cattle dog" but that is not specific enough for the article. The breed's name is "Australian Cattle Dog" all other terms are nicknames. I now live in the Hunter Valley and when people see my big blue dog they generally say "Good looking Smithfield". Noone in QLD ever referred to him as a "Smithfield" and I understand a Smithfield to be a very different dog. Thanks for your feedback, it is appreciated. Marj (talk) 22:21, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, the name "blue heeler" is dependent on color, and as we know, some are red (hence "red heeler"). Even the Australian National Kennel Council recognizes it as the Australian Cattle Dog. Anna (talk) 22:48, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Agree the breed name and the popular nicknames are two different things. Marj (talk) 03:29, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Coat Colour

The question of whether roan is actually a separate pattern or if it is just a variation of ticking is complicated by the use of 'roan' differently in different animals and the use of other terms such as 'belton' for similar effects in dogs -- and the fact that until such time as the gene causing ticking or roan is identified the similarity or difference cannot be completely supported or refuted. Genes affecting coat colour and pattern in domestic dogs: a review S. M. Schmutz and T. G. Berryere Animal Genetics, 38, 539–549 Marj (talk) 23:39, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. The gene that seems to cause roan in Cocker Spaniels has been mapped to a position near the gene that causes ticking, according to a summary of a study by Schmutz (Ticking and roan in the canine are controlled by the same novel region). Some have hypothesized that roan is not a separate pattern at all and is instead merely heavy ticking. Either way, it is a variant in the sense that the boundaries are hazy and those two genes, if we presume that a separate roan gene exists (as opposed to just polygenes), have effects along a continuum and are clearly related. In fact, the paper you're citing, in relation to roan, says:

"Australian Cattle Dogs, sometimes called Blue Heelers in North America often have this pattern."

To anyone reading this: having the article say that the dogs are certainly not roan is inappropriate without a citation. Unless that has been discredited via testing, we shouldn't include it in the article. The only article I found that says that doesn't say how or why they arrived at that conclusion and is from the book A Dog Called Blue. It could be added if someone obtains further information, but I was unable to. Assistance would be appreciated.

To my eyes, ACDs certainly appear to be roan when going by definitions of the pattern in dogs, whatever you theorize causes it -- an image of one is even used in the roan (color) article! Anna (talk) 03:03, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree, I had not previously removed this because there is no agreement and I posted it here as I think it should be on the record. BTW the Roan wikipedia article lacks verification and the cattledog in the picture you cite is miscoloured. Marj (talk) 23:44, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Picture

Australian Cattle Dogs showing the blue and red coat colours

Parking image here to reinstate later ... Marj (talk) 00:18, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

In popular culture

• This section needs additional references before it can be used.

Australian Cattle Dogs have featured in a range of media. The breed has represented characteristics of dependability, toughness and endurance in company names and advertising campaigns in Australia, including the award winning Daewoo advertisements starring Cane, a Cattle Dog that was worth a reported $45 million to the company. The Australian police drama Blue Heelers took the breed’s nickname in reference to its reputation for protectiveness. In 1908, Lionel Lindsay’s series of Australian greeting cards depicted a Cattle Dog stealing the festive turkey. References to the Cattle Dog appear in novels by Larry McMurtry and Steven King and in children’s books including the Children's Book Council of Australia awarded Spud which gives a picture of life on the land through the dog's eyes. Australian Cattle Dogs have featured in a number of movies as a loyal companion, appearing alongside Mel Gibson in Mad Max 2, Johnny Depp in Secret Window, Tom Berenger in Last of the Dogmen and Billy Connolly in The Man Who Sued God. In Babe, Australian Cattle Dogs are used by the men who attempt to steal sheep from Babe's owners, and they also are used to herd sheep by the main characters in Brokeback Mountain. Additionally, Australian Cattle Dogs appear in the three Fallout videogames.

Among a number of Australian and international celebrity artists, actors and musicians who have owned an Australian Cattle Dog is US country music artist Steve Earle; the cover of Earle's Grammy Award winning album Washington Square Serenade is Tony Fitzpatrick's collage featuring Beau. The winner of Pet Star's first season was Skidboot, an Australian Cattle Dog from Quinlan, Texas that went on to appearances on Oprah, Animal Planet and The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. Two Australian Cattle Dogs whose actions were described as typical of the breed were featured in the international news media. Sophie Tucker, from Queensland, made headlines when, after falling from her family's yacht in the Whitsunday Passage, swam 5 kilometres (3.1 mi) through shark-infested waters and lived on the deserted St Bees Island for five months before being reunited with her owners. RSPCA vet Vicki Lomax believes Sophie Tucker's breed and her level of fitness had no doubt contributed to her survival, saying "Cattle Dogs are probably the most suited type of dog to survive something like this, but it would have been a major ordeal for her." Blue, an Australian Cattle Dog from Fort Myers, Florida, stood guard beside Ruth Gay, his 83-year-old owner who had fallen and injured herself. As she lay beside a canal, Blue launched repeated attacks against an alligator, receiving around thirty lacerations consistent with alligator bites. When Blue was awarded for his heroism, Tasmanian breeder Narelle Hammond-Robertson said "It wouldn't have mattered if the alligator had been an elephant, these dogs will protect their masters, win, lose or draw."

Marj (talk) 23:25, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

References

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Australian Cattle Dog/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Has a good amount of useful info. The "breed" section should be divided up into the various sections that its info covers. A history section must be created. Dividing the appearance section into subsections would definitely importve readability. Needs more references and citations. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 13:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 13:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 20:07, 2 May 2016 (UTC)