Talk:Atlantis/Archive 5

Archive 1

←

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Archive 7

→

Archive 9

Possible location

i think i posted this on the talk page last year but someone deleted it. it's an interesting website placing Atlantis near the east indies, it has pretty convincing information and a checklist which compares all speculated locations. I think parts of it citing the East Indies as a possible location should be included in this article Atlantis Checklist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.53.88.129 (talk) 08:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

This is covered in the appropriate article, Location hypotheses of Atlantis, not all significant suggestions can be in this article.--Doug Weller (talk) 16:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but the correct location is in fact 600-650 miles off the coast of Portugal. GanstaNinja (talk) 22:46, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

No GanstaNinja, that was an article in a tabloid: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2255989.ece Google have already made a statment that a city the size of Wales (60x the size of Modern Day London) is actually a recording of how the boats move in a linear path with thier sonar. - Anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.131.189.209 (talk) 14:35, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Added Location hypotheses.

Small edit. Added Sea of Azov hypotheses to "In or near the Mediterranean Sea." Xikipedia (talk) 21:01, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Google Earth

Google oceans is in 5.0, right? But I can see atlantis in 4.3. It can't be a boat. ~~~~

Story here

http://www.dailytech.com/Atlantis+Claimed+to+Be+Found+Using+Google+Earth+Google+Says+Otherwise/article14358.htm

Drrtwills (talk) 12:19, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

First, look at:

1. Wortham, J., 2009, Google Explains Watery Mystery of ‘Atlantis’, New York Times.

2. and Smith, W. 2009, Atlantis? No, it Atlant-isn't. Lat Long Blog, Google Earth.

Second, the lines are strips along which the bottom depth was directly determined by echosounding (sonar) surveys from ships. They show up as lines because the bottom depth as estimated by satellite altimeter data has not been adjusted to fit the echosounding data. The source for the data that shows up on the digital bathymetric model as "lines" on the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean about 31°15'15.53" N, 24°15'30.53" W. and being touted as "Atlantis" are echosounding data collected along grid patterns during cruises Tydeman 80 and Tyro 82. The grid pattrens, along which this data was collected, corresponds exactly to the so-called "Atlantis" Google Earth are shown in figure 1 of:

Alibés, B., M. Canals, B. Alonso, S. M. Lebreiro and P. P. E. Weaver, 1996, Quantification of Neogene and Quaternary sediment input to the Madeira Abyssal Plain. Geogaceta. vol. 20, no. 2, pp. 394-397. ISSN: 0213683x.

The same grid patterns, along which the echosounding data was collected, are also illustrated by figures in:

Searle, R.C., S.R.J. Williams, Q.J. Huggett, R.G. Rothwell, P.J. Schultheiss, and P.P.E. Weaver, 1987, The geology of the Madeira Abyssal Plain: further studies relevant to its suitability for radioactive waste disposal. Institute of Oceanographic Sciences Deacon Laboratory Report no. 250. Wormley, UK, Institute of Oceanographic Sciences Deacon Laboratory, 86 pp.

As discussed in the above report, this area was studied as part of research into the possible use of abyssal plains for the disposal of radioactive waste. This research is also discussed in:

Freeman, T. J., C. N. Murray, T. J. G. Francis, S. D. McPhail, and P. J. Schultheiss, 1984, Modelling radioactive waste disposal by penetrator experiments in the abyssal Atlantic Ocean. Nature vol. 310, No 5973, pp. 130-133, doi:10.1038/310130a0

In addition, this so-called "Atlantis, was part of the study area for Ocean Drilling Project (ODP) Leg 157. The cores taken from ODP drill sites 950, 951, and 952, within this alleged "Atlantis" completely refute any arguments that this area was at any time above sea level. This is discussed and documented in:

Schmincke, H.-U., P.P.E. Weaver, J.V. Firth, J.V., and others, 1995, LEG 157-Scientific Results, Gran Canaria and Madeira Abyssal Plain Sites 950-956. Proceedings ODP, Initial Reports. v. 157. Ocean Drilling Program, Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas.

and Ocean Drilling Program Leg 157 Citations.

Finally, as previously linked above, an explanation of how ocean depth is estimated is discussed in Exploring the Ocean Basins with Satellite Altimeter Data and Geosat.Paul H. (talk) 01:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Translation quesiton. Didn't he mean Beyond, not in front of?

It currently reads: lying "in front of the Pillars of Hercules. Is that translated properly? In the Pillars of Hercules article it reads: According to Plato's account, the lost realm of Atlantis was situated beyond the Pillars of Hercules. I've seen a documentary on this before, which said beyond. He means west of it, doesn't he? Dream Focus 03:52, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Just depends on your perspective. If you're inside the Mediterranean, it's "beyond"; if you're in the Atlantic, it's "in front". The real question, though, is what the original Greek text says, and I'm too lazy to look right now. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:05, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, you lazy, lazy, Akhilleus. The preposition in question is πρό, for which "before" or "in front of" is a very reasonable translation. Deor (talk) 04:31, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

This is exactly why I'm lazy; if I wait long enough, someone else will do the work for me. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:07, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

How about Plato's "greater in extent than Libya and Asia", would you translate the noun "extent" from the original (pretty please)? Does it relate to size? It has always been the tipping point for me, but I do not read Greek and so have no choice but to accept that something larger than (known) Asia and Africa managed to disappear for this to be true.

holocene sea level rise

holocene changes in human settlements seem rarely linked back to sea level rise

the timing of the loss of Atlantis would seem well placed to be a part of the Meltwater Pulse 1A

for example see Weaver et al. Science 14 March 2003: 1709 DOI: 10.1126/science.1081002 Meltwater Pulse 1A from Antarctica as a Trigger of the Bolling-Allerod Warming Science 14 March 2003: 1709 http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/299/5613/1709?ijkey=1Y7ijVfKZOpU&keytype=ref&siteid=sci and W.R. Peltier On the hemispheric origins of meltwater pulse 1a W.R. Peltier Quaternary Science Reviews Volume 24, Issues 14-15, August 2005, Pages 1655-1671 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBC-4G1MDBV-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0baf40ac28d160f2e4ea797e179f0848

see also discussion and references at the end of this blog http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=113807

Drrtwills (talk) 12:49, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Is this chart comparing the locations valid for inclusion? Can we stick it in somehow?

http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/atlantisboliviapart4_files/milos990.jpg

My edit got reverted. http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Atlantis&diff=272420546&oldid=272420249 I Googled for that conference, and didn't find any major news sources talking about it. Still, you had a group of people, professional and published archeologist and whatnot, one of which had a documentary I saw about Bolivia being Atlantis(having a documentary made about your work makes you notable by wikipedia I think), who agreed upon this. There are references from the various translated versions of Plato, every indication of anything that could be used to find the exact spot he was talking about. http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/atlantisboliviapart4_files/milos990.jpg

If I contacted them, and they agreed to let their chart be used, would that be valid here or on the Location hypotheses of Atlantis article? When you look at the chart, it seems odd that other locations are listed, and not Bolivia. All the other evidence seems rather convincing as well. Dream Focus 03:22, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Please don't. Any theory that Atlantis is located in Bolivia is a non-starter. Maybe you can stick it in Location hypotheses of Atlantis--but it's too far out there for the main article. Please realize that there are many "discoveries" of Atlantis every year, and none of them ever pan out. That's because people are looking for the wrong thing--Plato's Atlantis is a fiction. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The evidence looks rather convincing to me. And they once said another Greek story was false, there no city of Troy, everyone dismissing it as nonsense, until someone went there and found it. Everyone should keep an open mind, but also look over notable facts you can confirm or disprove. Dream Focus 17:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Because of the nature of the subject, we are using fringier sources than we normally would, but this one deserves no more then a mention, certainly not this chart. No way is Jim Allen a reliable source, or this location notable enough. dougweller (talk) 06:41, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

This is redaculis. The neutrality of the article is called into questian. It can't just act like one side of the story is true. There is varius lucrative evidence that is worthwhile to study that shows Atlantis is real place. Many expeditions are still abound. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.125.23.217 (talk) 19:18, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, there we go, in the 19th century the argument wasn't whether there was a real city of Troy, but where it was located. Schliemann thought he knew where it was but was persuaded by others to dig in a different spot, where he may have found it (we still lack the archaeological evidence to be sure that Homer was describing a real war). So that's a bad example. And it doesn't matter if you find it convincing and someone else doesn't, what we need are reliable sources. Jim Allen isn't one. dougweller (talk) 18:45, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

But isn't Plato? You can't just say something doesn't exists, because it hasn't been found yet. There is no reason to doubt this ancient writer, who wrote specific measurements of things, and gave far more detail to it than he would if it was just a story meant to entertain or teach a moral lesson to people. I believe Plato is notable, and the archeological evidence, the quarried stones, and the satellite images of that area, as well as the ancient measurements, and descriptions, and the gold copper alloy he mentions, among other things, do make Atlantis seem quite real, and Bolivia the most likely place for it to be at. Dream Focus 19:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what we think; what matters is what reliable sources think. Jim Allen isn't one; scholars like Julia Annas, Pierre Vidal-Naquet, and John Luce are. These are classicists, the kinds of people we turn to when we need expert opinions on ancient Greek philosophy, history, and literature. Annas and Vidal-Naquet think that Plato's Atlantis is pure fiction, whereas John Luce thinks that Plato's Atlantis might depend on stories of the Thera eruption. But I don't think you'll find any classicist thinks that Plato was writing about Bolivia... --Akhilleus (talk) 19:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Those with college degrees in various sciences, and those who have gone and done actual scans and digs in an area, and done some real research, are not valid at all, however a few people with no scientific knowledge whatsoever are, because after studied the old writing, they decided it was nonsense. No. I prefer those who look at things by the scientific method, than those who just read some old text and debated it amongst themselves. I'm sure there are plenty of classicists who look at the information, and believe otherwise, although I'm not sure how many have looked up any recent information, and published their opinions on it. Dream Focus 19:52, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

By all means, use whatever method you prefer to come to your personal beliefs regarding Atlantis. But Wikipedia policy is clear regarding the importance of reliable sources. Find some other forum to argue your point, but when in WP, then we follow WP policy. Phiwum (talk) 22:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I also think it is impossible to understand Plato's writing simply by reading it and going out and digging (although I don't think anyone has claimed to have found Atlantis by digging). As for scans, the number of unscientific uses of scanned material I've seen.... dougweller (talk) 22:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction

The article quotes "It is only in modern times that people have taken the Atlantis story seriously; no one did so in antiquity" but then goes on to say "Some ancient writers viewed Atlantis as fiction while others believed it was real". Even though the first is a quote, and we should allow some leeway for different sources to express different opinions, there's no getting around the fact that these statements are completely incompatible. 86.161.42.191 (talk) 01:15, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it is rather a question of relativity than that of a contradiction. Alan Cameron talks in general terms while Nesselrath goes more specific. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 11:34, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm ... I don't see it myself. I cannot see how both those statements can be true. 86.138.42.161 (talk) 15:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we need an opposing quote next to the Alan Cameron quote? "According to Alan Cameron, "...blahblahblah..."; however, [insert authority here] wrote that "...blahblahblah..."?"165.91.80.153 (talk) 21:06, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Google are wrong editor

Please, this is not a forum for discussing Google. If you have good references that discuss the issue, bring them in or add them, but this is not a discussion page for general discussion. Thanks. There's a note at the top of this page saying the same thing. (You should be looking at your talk page but I'm not sure you read it).

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 19:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Freemasonry

The article should maybe mention the mythological theory about Atlantis being a Masonic civilization. The idea of the United States of America being a kind of New Atlantis is apparently based on the idea that both the United States and Atlantis had a supposedly Masonic background. ADM (talk) 10:16, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Really so if Atlantis was a Free Mason society, and Plato wrote about Atlantis, and the Freemasons began in the 18th century, then Plato could see the future. I am going to add that to the Plato article. He must have been a reptilian also.--68.184.246.3 (talk) 02:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Atlantis Etymology

I deleted the explanation of the name of Atlantis which was unreferenced. I haven’t found anywhere that Atlantis meant the daughter of Atlas. It doesn't make sense. Plato states that the first born was named Atlantas/Atlas and the Island was called after him Atlantis (actually in the Greek text Atlantis is mentioned only once, the first time and then the Island is mostly called ATLANTIDI --- Ατλαντιδι νησω. ) Ατλαντ-ιδι =Atlas + Land. --Xellas (talk) 16:51, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you could have looked very hard. It's easy to find via Google Books or Scholar, and I happen to have a couple of the books anyway. I've added references and also references for Hellanicus's earlier work about Atlantis, I really should have done this a long time ago - it's amazing no one else noticed the article didn't mention him. Dougweller (talk) 19:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

D, I don't think that Atlantis that Hellanicus's talking about is the one from Plato. I happened to have read Plato's work in his Ancient version (I am not that great but I can read most of it) and I find that Plato uses different names for this island. when he intruduces the island he calls it; ATLANTIS (ONLY once). then, he uses different names like Atlantidi or Atlanta. So if you want to be correct you have to call it ATLANTIDI. anyway, Critias explains that the names are hellenised so the names of Atlantis are all Greek meaning. Atlantis MUST have had a different name in its language (Unfortunatelly we don't know that...)I do speak Ancient and Modern greek so there is no such a thing as the daughter of Atlas anywhere.

the only thing we can do is try to get the meaning of the word Atlantidi. I have looked into such words and I have found mostly certain pelsgian words such as atdei or atde which stunds for father (AT) and dei (LAND) and atlantidi has both so in other words we have Father - LANT - LAND. I am kind of speculating od course but I am sure that atlantis does not mean the daughter of Atlas. think about it; He is the son of Poseidon and he is the firstborn child. He can't be named after his daughter?! Anyway I will leave it like that and I will look more into it....--Xellas (talk) 22:33, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

You can read more on this site. It explains the diferent ATLAS...es http://www.atlanteans.gr/eng/engenatlas.htm --Xellas (talk) 22:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok D, I found this;

Atlas mythology - Etymology The etymology of the name Atlas is uncertain and still debated. Some derive it from the Proto-Indo-European root *tel, 'to uphold, support'; others suggest that it is a pre-Indo-European name. Since the Atlas mountains fall in the region inhabited by Berbers, it could be that the name as we know it is taken from Berber.

and another one

and it is suported by http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=atlas

As you can see no one is certain about the name, so I suggest you explain that one of the possible meanings is the daughter of Atlas and another one could be to uphold --Xellas (talk) 23:13, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Atlas is almost certainly derived from the same root as the verb tlaō, "endure". As I explain below, the use of "Atlantis" that we're concerned with here, from Plato, simply means "of Atlas"--Plato always uses it along with nēsos ("island") to mean "island of Atlas".

Atlantidi is simply the dative singular form of Atlantis. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:09, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

External links

I have a cool link with a blog with all Atlantis sites;

• ATLANTIS LINK LIBRARY

Should I include within? It doesn't represent a particular theory....--Xellas (talk) 17:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't look that useful to me. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand, what's not usuful? a blog with all the Atlantis sites out there?--Xellas (talk) 02:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

As you say, a blog, see WP:ELNO. It shouldn't be there. Dougweller (talk) 07:47, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Atlantis, daughter of Atlas != Atlantis, island of Atlas

The article currently claims the etymology of Atlantis is "daughter of Atlas", and conflates a daughter of Atlas named "Atlantis" with the island civilization that is this article's subject. This is a mistake.

First of all, etymology. The article links to the LSJ entry for the adjective Ἀτλαντικός , ή, όν, which tells us that Ἀτλαντίς (genitive -ίδος) is a feminine form of that adjective, which means "of Atlas". So this word is formed directly from the proper name Atlas, and simply means "of Atlas"; the form Ἀτλαντίς is used to modify feminine nouns. The entry also notes that Ἀτλαντίς is used as a patronymic (as adjectives in -ίς, -ίδος often are), so this gives us the additional meaning "daughter of Atlas."

The use of the word that this article is most concerned with is in Plato's Timaeus and Critias, and there, it's combined with the word νῆσος ("island") in every instance. Plato refers not to Atlantis, but "the island of Atlas" (e.g. Timaeus 25a: ἐν δὲ δὴ τῇ Ἀτλαντίδι νήσῳ ταύτῃ...) At ''Critias 114a we are told that the island (and the Atlantic Ocean) are named for the island's first king, Atlas--thus, Atlantis and Atlantic are straightforwardly derived from Atlas' name.

As for the use of Ἀτλαντίς as "daughter of Atlas", it's worth noting that there doesn't seem to be any daughter of Atlas whose name is actually Atlantis. Atlas had many daughters (Pleiades anyone?), and we can find Ἀτλαντίς used as a patronymic along with their proper name, e.g. Hesiod Theogony 938 Ζηνὶ δ' ἄρ' Ἀτλαντὶς Μαίη τέκε κύδιμον Ἑρμῆν... (Maia, daughter of Atlas, bore glorious Hermes to Zeus...). I don't have access to the fragments of Hellanicus at this moment but from this link supplied in the article it seems quite clear that the fragments of Hellanicus were discussing the daughters (plural) of Atlas and their descendants, and not the island which forms the subject of this article. So the relevance of Hellanicus to this article seems slight, although it's perhaps worth mentioning that the Greek word "Atlantis" could also be a adjective meaning "daughter of Atlas". --Akhilleus (talk) 01:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree, that's what I said before. It appears as there were at least three diferent Atlas-es. Atlas the Titan, Atlas, the one you're talking about, with the daughters and our Atlas the son of Poseidon.--Xellas (talk) 02:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy to have the Google books link removed, that wasn't mine, but I'm putting back the rest as so far as I can see it is well referenced and I only used a few of those I knew about. As for daughter of Atlas, again, I don't know about the LSJ entry, but what is wrong with the other references I added? Dougweller (talk) 05:50, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Just to emphasise the point, we have reliable sources, eg the two classics professors I added, and there are more, saying "daughter of Atlas". Therefore it should be in the article - maybe with "it has been suggested...". And of course, if you have reliable sources discussing this saying it's wrong, then add those also. Dougweller (talk) 07:50, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Doug, did you read what I wrote above? Of course Ἀτλαντίς can mean "daughter of Atlas", but that's not what it means in every instance--and it doesn't mean that mean Plato talks about the Atlantis nēsos. --Akhilleus (talk) 11:42, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but my sources linked this with Plato's Atlantis, is that irrelevant? Dougweller (talk) 12:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think they were, Doug. The LSJ entry doesn't; the only passage it cites for the patronymic usage is the Theogony bit I quote above--when it gets to "ἡ Ἀ. νῆσος, a fabulous island in the far West," and cites Plato and Strabo, it's talking about simple adjective usage ("of Atlas"). This version of the article cites Luce and Ramage for the usage "daughter of Atlas". I don't have Ramage, but Luce mentions "Atlantis, daughter of Atlas" in a fanciful account of how Solon might have planned an epic poem about Atlantis; elsewhere Luce observes "Atlantis is not derived from Atlantic. Linguistically both names are in the same generation, so to speak, like brother and sister, and both trace their parentage back to Atlas, the giant Titan who held the sky on his shoulders. In Greek they are adjectival forms of Atlas, meaning '(the island) of Atlas' and '(the sea) of Atlas' respectively. They differ in form because the nouns with which they agree differ in gender." (This is p. 31 in The End of Atlantis: New Light on an Old Legend, which I think is essentially a reprint of Lost Atlantis: new light on an old legend, though with different pagination.) On p. 42, Luce writes: "Imagine Solon's reaction when confronted with this sort of information about ancient Keftiu. He could not have failed to associate it with the myth of Atlas, who, according to Homer, had a daughter in a remote western island and kept 'the pillars which hold the sky round about'. My suggestion is that Solon translated Keftiu by Atlantis, the island of Atlas, and, since the inhabitants bore the same name, he called them the descendants of Atlas." --Akhilleus (talk) 12:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

ok, I've confirmed below that the cite from Ramage's book refers specifically to Hellanicus's usage. I think the article needs to discuss this or it will get back in the lead at some point. Dougweller (talk) 13:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

"it's worth noting that there doesn't seem to be any daughter of Atlas whose name is actually Atlantis." -- Akhilleus

-- Atlas had a couple of daughters who do not appear in the Plieades or Hyades. One was named was Maera. The other was named Atlantia, and she was married to Danaus. Atlantia was a poplar-tree nymph(hamadryade), who also would seemingly connect to the Phaethon legend via this poplar tree link. -- Rich

Hellanicus definitely wrote a work called Atlantis

I do not understand at all why this was removed. I had planned to work on it more today and look at the sources that I hadn't found myself and clear up what people think it was about (a genealogy, etc), but I don't understand why it was removed completely as it is a fact that he wrote a work called Atlantis before Plato's writings, and that is clearly something that should be in the article. Removing it wasn't the way to go I believe. I'll bring some more references to the table sometime today. Dougweller (talk) 07:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I removed it because Hellanicus' Atlantis wasn't about the subject of this article. It was, as you say, a genealogy--which deals with the descendants of the daughters of Atlas. I don't have a problem with mentioning that Hellanicus wrote a work called Atlantis, but any material that suggests that he mentioned Atlantis (the island) before Plato is wrong. --Akhilleus (talk) 11:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Wrong is a bit of a strong word considering that we only have a tiny bit of this particular work and the fact that Hellanicus wrote at least 28 local histories and chronogrophies, eg the first history of Athens. But I agree that the sources say it was basically a genealogical work, although again, here's what Castleden says: "Plato's detractors have accused him of inventing the Atlantis myth in its entirety, hut a book called Atlantis was written a century before. Unfortunately, only a fragment of Hellanicus' Atlantis survives, Including the line, 'Poseidon mated with Celaeno, and their son Lycus was settled by his father in the Isles of the Blest and made immortal'.79 This bears similarities with Plato's account, where Poseidon mates with Cleito and their son Atlas becomes ruler of a marvellous island. Plato may have borrowed from the earlier book, taking its title as the name (or his lost land, while I lellanicus in his turn may have taken the story from a still earlier Atlantis epic;80 alternatively, both may have drawn on Solon's story, which may have had a wider currency in the sixth century than we now realize. The Isles of the Blest were often thought of as being far to the west...

And John V Luce in Ramage's book: "I do not myself believe that there was any popular Greek basis for Plato's tale. It has some affinities with mythological motifs like the "Golden Age" and the "Isles of the Blest," but such motifs are too generalized to count as sources. Plato, however, may have de­rived some inspiration from a fifth-century literary presentation of popular mythology. I refer to the work of Hellanicus of Lesbos, whose writings, so far as I am aware, have not previously been discussed in relation to Atlantis criticism. This is all the more surprising given the fact that Hellanicus was the author of works entitled Phoronis, Deucalioneia, and Atlantis (or Atlantika, or Atlantias), and that Plato alludes explicitly to the legends of Pho-roneus and Deucalion in his introduction of the Atlantis story (Timaeus 22a). According to Lesky, Hellanicus aimed at closing the gap between myth and historical tradition in the modern sense.60 Jacoby also regards him as much more than a mere com­piler and speaks highly of his systematic treatment of the early legends.61 Like Hecataeus, he tried to introduce some rational order into the confused deposit of Greek myth and heroic legend. I have contended that Plato continued the same enterprise, and, if so, it would be natural for him to take some account of Hellanicus' work. In the genealogy of the kings of Atlantis Plato is certainly writing in the manner of Hellanicus, and there may be a more specific debt to be traced. "Atlantis" as used by Hellanicus meant "daughter of Atlas," and the work seems to have been basically a genealogical one.62 Only a few fragments survive, and one of these recounts how "Poseidon mated with Kelaino and their son Lykos was settled by his father in the isles of the blest."63 This fragment bears a marked similarity to the account in the Critias (113d-e) of Poseidon's mating with Cleito and the island sanctuary fashioned by the god for their offspring."

Dougweller (talk) 13:30, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

So then it's very simple; include both the etymology of the name (daughter of Atlas) and Hellenicus work. Nevertheless, you have to make sure that you pinpoint the ambiguity that surrounds both. --Xellas (talk) 13:50, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Atlantis - Egyptian viewpiont

"Critias claims that his accounts of ancient Athens and Atlantis stem from a visit to Egypt by the legendary Athenian lawgiver Solon in the 6th century BC. In Egypt, Solon met a priest of Sais, who translated the history of ancient Athens and Atlantis, recorded on papyri in Egyptian hieroglyphs, into Greek."

Has any Egyptian manuscript/inscription been found that corroborates the Greek version of the story of Atlantis? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.84.37.18 (talk) 15:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Wrong place to discuss this really unless we are working on the article, but the answer is no, and the Egyptians had really very little interest in the history of anyplace other than Egypt. Dougweller (talk) 17:12, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, read the Book of the Dead. It has nothing to do with Solon, by does mention the sinking of a land to the west whose name has been translated various different ways (as is common with Egyptian names), some of these names are similar to Atlantis; although I don't think it has ever been translated as "Atlantis". Also (to correct the above commenter) the Egyptians did have an interest in non-Egyptian history, as evidenced by the Library of Alexandria, which had as its mandate to make copies of ever book or chart it could find. The Egyptians themselves made the first known records of Sub-Saharan Africa, the Caucasus Mountains, and the Black Sea. 68.148.123.76 (talk) 07:20, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Atlantis/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. The article has a lot of good qualities, but there are some issues that I believe prevent it from meeting the criteria.

• Lead section: "the failed Athenian invasion of Sicily in 415–413 BC" – this is not mentioned in the text
• "Plato's account":
  • The first quote is out of place; the background needs to be set up first - who is speaking etc.
  • "John V. Luce assumes..." – where? Needs ref
• "Reception"
  • "Ancient"
    • There are a couple of one-sentence paragraphs
    • "...no primary ancient account..." – needs ref
    • "Marcellus remains unidentified." – needs ref
  • "In Nazi mysticism" – does this really need a separate section?
• "In or near the Mediterranean Sea" – this section needs references to the listed locations
  • Google Earth story – here the reference is to a blog; there should be reliable sources for this
• "Other locations" – same thing as "In or near the Mediterranean Sea"
• "Notes" - the notes generally have poor formatting; many have naked URLs, in others information such as site and author is missing
• General:
  • There's a mix of spaced and unspaced dashes. Whatever kind of dashes you chose to use, it needs to be uniform.
  • Too much of the content is referenced directly to the ancient sources, which can be considered original research. Interpretation of ancient sources should be backed up by modern scholarship, of which there is plenty available.

I will wait for seven days, if anyone has started a thorough revision of the article by then, I will extend the waiting period, so the article can remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it will be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Lampman (talk) 17:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Since no significant improvements have been made to the article over the last week, I will now delist it. Lampman (talk) 17:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

About the use of word OCEAN

d, u wrote that Atlantis sank into the OCEAN. Plato never said that, he use the word Pelagos. So you do have to correct that. He did say indeed Atlantis Sea but he used the word pealgos which according to BABINOTIS Dictionary means Small Sea. The ancient word for Ocean would be Either PANPELAGOS in Platos time or After Alexander = OKEANOS --Xellas (talk) 23:18, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Correct. In Timaeus, Plato uses the term "Oceanus" in a different context, towards the god, in a reference to Orphic Genealogy. -- Rich

Somewhat interesting are references to an Atlantic Sea, pre-dating Plato, by Euripedes and Steisichoros. -- Rich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.64.182.186 (talk) 01:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Posidonius

Entered this site to read about Posidonius' work on the Druids and all i find is Plato etc. other Greeks etc. Piggot wrote that Posidonius is the most reliable source on actual Druids as opposed to Druids as wished for. Your Article(s) are of no help.

---

First of all, you have to sign your name and let us know who is it. Secondly, if I am not mistaken, you're looking for info on Posidonius.

Well, there is a search box on the top-left side where you can type the word Posidonius and it will take you to[1]

and finally, this particular site is for Atlantis (lost city, not the shuttle) and Plato is the primary source so he is the one mostly mentioned. If you have any sourced material you're welcomed to post it. --Xellas (talk) 15:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

War over the Advancment of atlantians

Someone with I.P 96.254.202.58 added "The Atlantians were to be believed that they were the smartest and most technologicaly aadvanced cizaliation on earth." to the article and proceeded to an UNDO war with certain members of WP. I don't understand why this person does not discuss his contribution first and then the majority will decide if it is appropriate or not. First of all, who are the people that BELIEVE that Atlantians were the smartest and most technologically advanced civilization on earth? Only people that are not correctly informed on the subject and do speculate. There is no evidence that shows that! Plato describes a civilization that fought with swords and horses with saddles. How advance would a society can be when they use primitive tools? You do have to reference your claim which I believe would be very difficult to fulfill as I haven’t found such evidence out there. On the other had, there are, unfortunately, many individuals that believe that claim. So I would suggest that you can enter the paragraph in a slightly different way. Example:

“Due to success of OUR entertainment industry and the popularity of fiction stories in modern times, many believe Atlantis to have been a very technologically advanced civilization. Nevertheless, according to Plato’s most important work on the subject no such a claim can be found. ”

--74.83.180.135 (talk) 19:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

New location hypothesis: Pavlopetri, Greece

Submerged town of Pavlopetri between Neapolis and Elafonissos island, off of Laconia, Greece.
"Lost Greek city that may have inspired Atlantis myth gives up secrets". Helena Smith, guardian.co.uk, Friday 16 October 2009 - http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/oct/16/lost-greek-city-atlantis-myth -
- 189.122.20.64 (talk) 16:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

See my response in the following section. Deor (talk) 17:44, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Undersea city near Elafonisso Island

I'm not sure the best way to integrate this information, but there is some new information about a possible spot near Elafonissos Island being Atlantis.[2] davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 17:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Aside from the headline and the first sentence, obviously journalistically crafted to pique readers' curiosity, I don't see any statement that the site has a relationship to Atlantis at all—in particular, any statement from the archaeologists actually working at the site. The only mention of Atlantis by any of the quoted authorities begins "Atlantis was a myth …" I'd say that there's no information to integrate. Deor (talk) 17:43, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

It is, by definition, a speculated location of Atlantis. The question is, has that speculation risen to the level of being encyclopedic? By comparison, I just now speculated that New York Harbor is the location of Atlantis, but that speculation is not serious, not credible, and certainly not encyclopedic. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 18:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

It hasn't risen to the level of being encyclopedic. It doesn't belong here; the standards for inclusion at Location hypotheses of Atlantis seem to be quite low, so maybe it can go there. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Denmark hypothesis

Guys, I am not anything like an expert on this subject, but thought this might deserve some mention. Some years ago, on Talk of the Nation, there was an episode in which some linguists traced the point of origination of the Indo-European language family to the vicinity of the Oder River. In the location hypotheses of Atlantis article, a summary mention is given to the Denmark solution proposed in a scholarly work. Taking what little I know of languages, "at" is an Indo-European term for "not" and equivalent, and "lant" means "land". "Atlant" could well have been a word meaning "landless", "nomad," or similar. This would be a reasonable term to describe people who had been forced from their land by the rising sea levels at the end of the Ice Age. Add an "s" ending, like the Greeks did to all male names, and you get something sounding like "Atlantis". In effect, this would seem to possibly identify "Atlantis" as the original home of the proto-Indo-Europeans. Unfortunately, I don't myself study the field enough to know if this has been put forward in RSs, but if it has I think it deserves to be mentioned. John Carter (talk) 14:39, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Cultures Claiming Relation

Can we add a blrub/comment on the Berber people of northern Morocco claiming to be descended from Atlantis? Having been there, and being a quarter berber, I'm familiar with the stories they tell, but I don't know if there's any documentation/sources concerning these stories being told. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.252.240.162 (talk) 22:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Dating of Timaeus

Hi - not necessarily about Atlantis itself, but surely the writing of Timaeus cannot be said for sure to be 360BC? Even if so, should this not be referenced? AJCottrell (talk) 23:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)AJCottrell

Proclus

Re your Atlantis item.

Proclus/Proklos was NOT a Christian historian, but a Pagan philosopher, a neo-Platonist. 77.250.218.217 (talk) 18:57, 12 January 2010 (UTC) Han Kloosterman.

Alan Cameron quote

The quote "It is only in modern times that people have taken the Atlantis story seriously; no one did so in antiquity" is contradicted in the previous paragraph and in the ancient reception section. How come it is still here?Halbared (talk) 13:26, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

New Modern Source for 'Further Reading' section

Shirley MacLaine's 2001 book entitled 'The Camino: A Journey of the Spirit gives a detailed account of Atlantis gleaned from vivid past-life experiences she had while on her pilgrimage on the Camino de Santiago.

I realize it's not a 'scientific' account, but we're talking about Atlantis here. Also 1.past-life experiences and 2.Shirley Maclaine's spiritual acumen are documented well enough that I think it deserves mention.

Does this fly with the rest of the wiki folk? Isoughtajam (talk) 01:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Not with me. Dougweller (talk) 16:44, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Might be a place for it in a mysticism section. But certainly not as fact.Slatersteven (talk) 23:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Technologically advanced?

Weren't Atlantians technollogicaly advanced?--Adam "Purz" Purzynski (talk) 21:14, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It's possible. Americans are technologically advanced compared to Haitians.Halbared (talk) 13:23, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Depends on who you ask. Remember that there were no real Atlanteans, they're mythical. It's a staple of recent depictions that Atlantis was a technologically advanced society; this isn't in Plato, although some features of his account may have inspired the idea of advanced technology. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't say so. Some documents say that Plato might of visited Atlantis himself.So,change of thought now?--Adam "Purz" Purzynski (talk) 23:05, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

What documents? given he never made such a claim himslef?Slatersteven (talk) 23:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Another example is from Otto Muck, an Atlantis searcher, said that the Mayans were colonists of Atlantis, and he used the Mayan calender to pinpoint the exact time of the natural disasters: around noon on June 6th, 8498 BC.--Adam "Purz" Purzynski (talk) 01:21, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

How could Plato have visited Atlantis, given he lived between 428/427 BC – 348/347 BC ? Just to be as a speculative "fringe" support to Maya "theory"; http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?search_string=turkey&search_type=any&ss=1 Logos5557 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Atlantis in Mediterranean?

I read somewhere that sometime in the last 10,000 years the Straits of Gibraltar opened an let the ocean flow in, filling a vast valley. So, would it be possible for Atlantis to have been flooded because of that event? 69.255.136.19 (talk) 23:02, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe geologists today think something like that happened, but it was more than 5 million years ago. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:43, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

We would need RS to include this in the article.Slatersteven (talk) 13:49, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.4d3eaceb94e76f30f9e2b75555025c27.3d1&show_article=1 This says 5 million years ago, which would place it outside the interest of this article. I think. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:08, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I should have made it clearer, what I meant was that this has anything to do with Atlantis.Slatersteven (talk) 23:29, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Etymology / Origin of the word Atlantis

The etymological explanation of ATLANTIS contradicts the OED, http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=atlantis&searchmode=none and also the Atlantis articles on Wikipedia in other languages. Which one is correct?

~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.47.144.254 (talk) 19:46, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

"Recent Times" section

I clicked on the link of that source, and Googled the authors; by the looks of them, they are archaeologists, not geologists, so they lack the necessary qualifications to make an "impossibility" assertion. Besides, the documentary "Life After People" demonstrated to everyone, how easily even an advanced civilization can dissapear without a trace. With volcanoes and the ocean involved, that only increases the likelihood. I need to present everyone with a challenge; what if the people of Atlantis, were black? It would certainly turn racist ideas on their head, if it were true. Also, what if, at the time Atlantis existed, the ancestors of whites were all pathetically primitive? Just throwing it out there; I wonder how white people would react, if what I just said where ever "discovered" in the year, say, 2012. If I'm right, lets see you be full of yourselves then.

67.148.120.84 (talk) 14:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)stardingo747

Professor Willy Ley

In the 1960s the late Prof Ley reviewed the whole of Platos story about Atlantis and decided that it was indeed a poltical allegory and based on Tartessos in spain and the invasion of the Sea People into what is now Levant. He titled his work "View over Atlantis".

The only part that I might disagree about was Tartessos. Plato was an educated Greek and would have been aware of most of the Mediterranean area including the cities. No author starts witha completely blank sheet and the description of circular moats is possibly based on the docks at Carthage.

This was the era before the Punic wars and carthage was a thriving city with trading contacts with Greece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.93.199.155 (talk) 15:21, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

suggestion

Hi, I just want to suggest to insert a new hypothesis into the article, which I think is the most educated Atlantis hypothesis I've ever heard about: www.asalas.org 78.35.56.240 (talk) 13:55, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

It's already covered at Location hypotheses of Atlantis#Morocco. Any additional material should go there, not in this article. Deor (talk) 14:30, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I find that those seeking various explanations of Atlantis have variously missed an important point.

They study the story from a Greek rather than an Egyptian point of view. Greeks knew the Mediterranean was landlocked, Egyptians did not, at least until the late period. For them the Mediterranean was "The Great Green", the world encircling ocean that Oceanus (The Atlantic) was to the Greeks. Looking at the Mediterranean from an Egyptian point of view, they saw an archipelago of islands stretching from Libya to Asia. The continent behind these islands would of course be Europe.

Now where do you find the story of an attempted invasion of Egypt and Athens just before the collapse of a civilisation? Why the late Bronze Age Collapse of course, in which Athens and Egypt were the two places that resisted the peoples of the sea. For that matter "Peoples of the Sea" may be a good description of Atlantis. John D. Croft (talk) 16:22, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

But this is a discussion that should take place on a forum, not here. Of course, bringing reliable sources here and discussing them is fine. Dougweller (talk) 16:50, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Possible connection to Younger Dryas event

Scientists have hypothesized that a comet or a swarm of cometary fragments impacted North America circa 10900 BC, in what is called the Clovis comet hypothesis. This hypothesis is a proposed explanation for the Younger Dryas event.

The energy released by an event of such magnitude would have melted or vaporized a significant volume of the Laurentide ice sheet. The superheated atmosphere is believed to have ignited forest fires over a vast swath of North America. Because the vapor pressure of water in a gas increases as the temperature of the gas increases, the superheated atmosphere could have held an enormous amount of water vapor (from the Laurentide ice sheet) in such conditions. When the fires stopped burning, the water vapor would have condensed and fell as torrential rains, flooding low-lying areas much like a catastrophic flash flood on a continental scale.

If Plato’s date for the destruction of Atlantis, 9600 BC, is taken to be chronologically accurate, then it seems to be within the margin of error of the 10900 BC date of the Younger Dryas event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.179.22.90 (talk) 23:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

If you have any RS promoting this idea feel free to add it.Slatersteven (talk) 12:32, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Houot and Archimede

No reliable source that I have been able to find supports the notion that the "giant stone stairway" supposedly observed by Georges Houot (note the spelling) was anything other than a natural formation, nor that it was claimed by him to be anything else, nor that it had anything to do with Atlantis. The Popular Science article cited by the IP who wants to add this material makes no mention at all of a "stairway" or of Atlantis; and the Jochmans website cited is clearly not a reliable source itself, nor does it cite any source for its implication that the formation has anything to do with Atlantis. In the absence of any reliable sources claiming a connection between this observation and the Atlantis myth, I'm once again deleting the material. Deor (talk) 04:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree, I checked the article before reading this. It doesn't belong here. Dougweller (talk) 04:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that, despite the IP's "not a copyvio" in the edit summary, the first and last of the three sentences added were direct copies of sentences on Jochmans's site, which bears an explicit copyright notice. Deor (talk) 13:46, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked! And getting tired of copyvio in so many articles. Dougweller (talk) 14:05, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Atlantis place Hypothesis

While browsing Google Earth, aeronautical engineer Bernie Bamford, found what he believed to be a huge man-made underwater site south-west from the Madeira Island. Archeologist of New York State University Dr. Charles Orser said: "The site is one of the most prominent places for the proposed location of Atlantis, as described by Plato. Even if it turns out to be geographical, this definitely deserves a closer look."

The source can be found here: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2255989.ece#ixzz0w4hVsYNd

But the coordinates in Google Maps are here: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=31.770208,-23.988647&spn=3.376099,4.938354&t=h&z=8

Leandro Dias

user:leandrodias —Preceding undated comment added 03:18, 9 August 2010 (UTC).

This has been discussed here before (as at Talk:Atlantis/Archive 5#Google Earth) and the idea that it has anything to do with Atlantis has been pretty thoroughly debunked. The 'man-made underwater site" is just an artifact of the ocean-sounding process. Deor (talk) 03:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Hellanicus et al. revisited

The anonymous user who recently edited the article to insert references to Hellanicus and Heraclitus is an acquaintance of mine, and contacted me on Facebook to vent his frustrations. I don't know anything about the classical sources on Atlantis, and all of my classical reference works are in storage, so I can't contribute anything about the scholarship here, but I did review the talk archives, and saw that the discussion here apparently ended with a suggestion that Hellanicus be mentioned in the article, with appropriate caution about whether the "Atlantis" about which he wrote has any connection with Plato's island. I'm not sure why this wasn't done, or if it was done, why it was removed.

Would it be appropriate to have a short note about other ancient uses of the word Ἀτλαντὶς, explaining that it means "of Atlas" and may or may not refer to the Ἀτλαντὶς νῆσος (island of Atlas)? Similarly, should there be a note about the connection (whether derivation or merely common etymological ancestry) between the Ἀτλαντὶς νῆσος and the Ἀτλαντὶς θάλασσα (ocean of Atlas or Atlantic Ocean)?

I've tried to encourage my acquaintance to raise his concerns here, but he's been reluctant to do so. So, reluctantly, I'm raising them for him. I'm not convinced that his perspective on Atlantis is necessarily correct, but if it is addressed in reliable sources perhaps it should be addressed here as well. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:47, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

He also tried to add something about Herodotus writing about Atlanteans from Atlantis, which is not only not correct, he'd need a reliable source to add something like that and I doubt he could find one. But I thought that the suggestion you mentioned above had been carried out, and I've left a note on the talk page of the editor who reverted your friend. Let's wait to see why he reverted it, but at the moment I think some mention should be in the article. Whatever we add, it would need reliable sources, eg for your suggestions, can you find some sources making the connection? Dougweller (talk) 19:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the Herodotus connection seems inaccurate (the Herodotus passage my acquaintance pointed me to is clearly talking about a mountain in Libya, not an island). But I thought that the Hellanicus connection seemed plausible, and the sources mentioned in the previous discussion (Castleden and Luce) could be used to support a mention here. (As I said, I don't currently have access to good sources myself.) The wording could be something like this:

The mythographer Hellanicus of Lesbos wrote an earlier work titled Atlantis, of which only a few fragments survive. Hellanicus' work appears to have been a genealogical one, concerning the daughters of Atlas (Ἀτλαντὶς in Greek means "of Atlas"), but some authors have suggested a possible connection with Plato's island.(insert refs to Luce and Castleden)

I don't know enough about the Atlantic/Atlantis connection to suggest wording or sources for that, though. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

@Dougweller: The reason I reverted the edit was that it changed the article's first sentence from "Atlantis ... is a legendary island first mentioned in Plato's dialogues Timaeus and Critias" to "Atlantis ... is a legendary island first mentioned by Hellanicus of Lesbos in his work entitled Atlantis", when there is no evidence whatever that Hellanicus mentioned this "legendary island" or that the title or content of his work had any relation to the topic of this article. If someone wants to write a section titled "Etymology" vel sim. in which Hellanicus and Herodotus can be mentioned, making it clear that they (among others) used Ἀτλαντίς and similar words to refer to something other than Plato's island, I guess that I would have no objection. The article has, at times, contained such information, most recently removed here by Akhilleus, I suppose because it was worded confusingly, verging on misleadingly. I basically agree with Akhilleus's comment here that any mention of Hellanicus or Herodotus in this article needs to avoid any suggestion that they "mentioned Atlantis (the island) before Plato". You yourself, Dougweller, seemed to recognize the danger when you wrote here, "The first mention of Atlantis is in Plato. The term was used in other ways by Herodotus and Hellanicus." Deor (talk) 12:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the material doesn't belong in the lead, but I'm not sure why Akhilleus removed the material when he did. Based on the sources discussed in the archive, I think it's fair to say that although the Hellanicus "Atlantis" is probably unrelated to Plato's island, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that there is some connection. Careful wording could allow for this possibility without endorsing it. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:28, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I see the problem. The first known use of the word is, I'm pretty sure, in Hellanicus. We should include that without implying that it's the first known use of the word to mean a country/island, etc, but we should also include what people like Castleden and Luce have to say about Hellanicus. Dougweller (talk) 10:03, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Since I don't have access to Castleden and Luce, I can't make the change with proper citations myself. Hope you can do so, Doug. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:38, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Homer, Hellanicus, and Herodotus all mention Atlantis and my citation is none other than Sir Isaac Newton himself.

"896 B.C. Ulysses found Calypso on the island of Ogygia .... She was the daughter of Atlas, according to Homer. The ancients at length imagined that this island (which they called Atlantis after the name of Atlas) had been as large as all Europe, Africa and Asia, and sank into the sea." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1727 69.114.48.4 (talk) 05:26, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Newton doesn't mention 'Homer, Hellanicus, and Herodotus' there. He says 'the ancients'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 16:20, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, this article is so biased against the reality of Atlantis that it blatantly contradicts itself.

As Alan Cameron states the blatantly false opinion: "It is only in modern times that people have taken the Atlantis story seriously; no one did so in antiquity" and this is stated as though it's fact. Hmmm...I guess Mr. Cameron has never heard of Plato, Crantor, Proclus, and Strabo. Because this same article later states, "Some ancient writers viewed Atlantis as fiction while others believed it was real.[11] The philosopher Crantor, a student of Plato's student Xenocrates, is often cited as an example of a writer who thought the story to be historical fact."69.114.48.4 (talk) 05:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Is anyone knowledgeable on the subject going to respond to this, or add the aforementioned Castleden and Luce material? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 14:15, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Oops, forgot about this, sorry. Will do. Dougweller (talk) 16:13, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Doug. That looks good to me. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:02, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Plutarch

According to Plutarch, On Isis And Osiris, it was Pythagoras who met Psenophis of Heliopolis, not Solon as the article states . --Odysses (₪) 23:23, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Santorini and Vesuvius

The History Channel (October 2010) suggested that Vesuvius erupted around 1700BCE and that previous eruptions had blanketed southern Europe in ash

1700BCE is close to some estimates of the eruption of Santorini. If both these volcanoes lie on the same tectonic plate and erupted almost simultaneously due to a major plate movement, could this also be part of the origins of the legend of the fiery and watery end of Atlantis? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.93.199.154 (talk) 06:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Santorini (OR tHERA) is an old thoery and is coverd.Slatersteven (talk) 13:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Recent vandalism

I think I have got it all but someone else better check to make sure.Slatersteven (talk) 15:18, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Pillars of Hercules

It was the late professor Marinatos who suggested that the original Pillars of Hercules were promontaries on the coast of Greece. At the time he was working up the theory that the original Atlantis was Minoan Crete. If this is what he had in mind he needed the P of H to be nearby.

The late prof Willy Ley thought that it was a semi fictional story and that Plato had Tartessos in Spain as the original mental image.

Considering that Carthage had a completely circular harbour of the type mentioned by Plato for Atlantis, this is yet another alternative.AT Kunene (talk) 11:45, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Pillars of Hercules

I am a firm believer that Platos story about Atlantis was indeed a fictional political allegory but in the interests of providing the widest possible background would add one more snippet.

Many years ago there was an article in the international press where a Greek professor suggested that the original Pillars of Hercules were natural feature on the Greek coast. Which may suggest that Plato had the Santorini devastion of Crete partly in mind when composing his books.

Only many generations later was the name then applied to the present Straits of Gibraltar.

Really? This is pure speculation and, even, somewhat silly speculation. 75.48.45.158 (talk) 06:39, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

OP, if you can find a source for this interpretation, then go ahead and add it to the article. Also, try to remember to sign your posts. It can get a bit confusing when you don't. Evanh2008 (talk) 01:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Theory to include

I would like to add text to the "methodology" section to reflect that the recent 2011 theory in regards to the site in southern Spain is based on real scientific data, including study by satellite and radar, rather than conjecture. there must be some way we can do so. My suggestion would be to mention the theory, and to note it is based on real scientific research. this would distinguish it from other works which are more literary in natue and are largely based on conjecture. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:54, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Lots of people claim their ideas are based on real scientific data. That doesn't mean they are. I see Freund suggests the Atlanteans may have founded civilization [3]. See also Eric Cline's review of a booklet of his [4]. Freund and his colleagues are advisors to Simcha Jacobovici [5]. Certainly what Cline writes in his short review doesn't make me think much of Freund's methodology. His academic discipline I see is history, not archaeology, despite him being referred to as an archaeologist. And I'm not the only one to think this is the same site as Kühne's, see [6]. Dougweller (talk) 15:03, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

hmm, ok. well, is there a valid way to reflect that this theory is one of the few based on real evidence, and real data obtained at the site? such as satellite images and radar readings? this really is a distinction. it is also the reason that this has gotten actual media coverage, making it more notable. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:07, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Steve, I removed your edit and explained why. Instead of discussing it, you've just replaced it. Who besides you has decided that this is something " based on scientific surveys and empirical data which was analyzed by experts with professional credentials" - can you name the experts and state their credentials? We rely on third party sources for a reason. And if you look through the Location article, a large number of those claimants would say that their work was done by people with credentials. Sarmast made similar claims but when they were looked at they were rejected. We should wait until experts comment on Freund's claims, not pronounce on them ourselves. I was hoping you wouldn't replace your edit without discussion, but I was disappointed I see. Dougweller (talk) 15:24, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

hmmm, well thanks for your reply. I am truthfully sorry if it did not seem very constructive. however, i did try to edit to accommodate your concerns. thanks for your feedback on this. as far as my sources, all media coverage clearly says that the team undertook a wide variety of scientific surveys, and describe the techniques used. so i am directly summarizing the articles. i am not imposing any value judgments. i am simply reflecting that unlike this group, most theorists were not out there in the field doing archaeological surveys and undertaking genuine scientific surveys with special instruments. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:31, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

after rethinking this, I have decided to consider this further. so i will not pursue this right now. I am fine with the existing reference to this finding. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 17:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Recent finds

So what about this: http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/technology/9000943/lost-city-of-atlantis-swamped-by-tsunami-may-be-found/ Any truth to it and should this be included? 118.209.234.52 (talk) 05:42, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

That's what is being discussed above and at Talk:Location hypotheses of Atlantis, where it belongs. --Dougweller (talk) 08:42, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Tartessos

The current version of the article mentions the supposed finding of Atlantis buried in muds of the Doñana National Park. Much like the NG report on the subject, it fails to mention the fact that the area has been theorized for decades to be the seat of the never found capital city of ancient kingdom of Tartessos, which Adolf Schulten already considered a probable inspiration for Atlantis in the early 20th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.244.129.91 (talk) 14:38, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Lost stuff

I'm pretty sure there used to be something in this article about the relevance of Atlantis to "New Age" thinking, and I think there also used to be a summary section about references in modern popular culture; now there doesn't seem to even be a link to Atlantis in popular culture. I guess these losses are just due to the usual random article erosion, but probably are worth restoring. 86.160.219.177 (talk) 13:44, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Theory of events

A theory of the events of Atlantis has been proposed by Peter James Thompson. The method the Atlantians used to produce electricity was based on E=mc2, It is applied E=mc2 which causes electrical storms on earth, for a start, It is the interaction of the Earth's magnetic field spinning/moving through the Van Allen Belt creating energy and acting like a brake on the earth, preventing any increases in c*. In terms of common day E=mc2 think of the earth like a alternator in a car, the Earth is the "armature with a magnetic flux field", and the Van Allen belt is the "casing's stationary magnetic flux field winding". High school taught the more electrical load applied to a alternator the harder it is to turn. This directly applies to the earth and is the referred *"acts like a brake on the earth" affecting spin/rotation. In examples these conversions are in direct relationships to mechanical loads, speed/velocity, and electrical (energy) potential.

As the Earth's structure is a crust over a molten layer which surrounds a core, it is this molten layer that causes a weakness in the structure/earth when compared to a alternator's armature of solid metal, According to legend Atlantis was centrally located, the electrical distribution points were all over a area of a large city (small area compared to Earth's surface). With every building in this area having it's own ground stake (like a lightning rod) there was no main switch to shut down everything/anything. When the electrical load of the city exceeded the maximum electrical potential a series of events happened, In conversion of electrical energy (potential) heat is produced as well as the “braking effect” increases in direct relationships, this “braking effect” where the velocity decreases until the earth stalls. Stalling a alternator just stops the electrical output and burns out the components and windings, stalling the earth is far more complex, it will affect each layer's properties differently. To think of the effects of the Earth stalling, imagine a spinning counter wheel throwing out a chunk or shattering at high RPMs, or car/truck tyre, the effects are anything from a simple blow out of inner volume of air to a truck blowing out/off the whole tread. In terms of Atlantis, the heat and brake effect caused the areas of the loads (city) to super heat from below (bottom of the crust layer to surface), weakening the area (the factor of super heating likely due to a capacitance effect would not have been known or fore seen until it was too late). The blow out (massive explosion) of molten material in the vacuum of space would form a sphere. This sphere would be trapped at some point by the gravitational force of the earth (this considers a loss in velocity of material escaping the earth's gravity). This can explain what no one else can, why the moon exists and how it's properties have been exposed to huge amounts of heat and the earth has not (a theory of a huge solar flares), as well as what was it made from, formed and how did it get trapped in the earth's orbit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crackpot1234 (talk • contribs) 17:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that a search for Mr. Thompson's name along with the word Atlantis turns up no reliable sources that discuss this theory, so inclusion of the theory in the article is not possible. Deor (talk) 17:31, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Proceedings of the 2nd International Conference on Atlantis held in Athens, November 2008.

I propose to put the following book in the part "Further reading" among "Modern sources"

Papamarinopoulos, S.T., Ed.(2011) Proceedings of the 2nd International Conference on “The Atlantis Hypothesis” (Atlantis 2008). Athens: Heliotopos Ltd. 766 pages. 79.84.177.31 (talk) 19:22, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

this section was deleted in by user DEOR for no reason whatsoever despite that it is VERIFABLE, NOATABLE, AND REFERENCED

I was worried to contribute to a super contentious article like this one. and yesterday my fears were certainly confirmed when someone got upset because it conflicted with their "pet" version of atlantis and removed all my hard work for no reason.

Pre-Platonic Atlantis myths

In Egyptian literature (Palermo Stone, Turin Papyrus, Egyptian Chronicles) there is a story about a lost civilization in the west which closely matches the later Greek Atlantis myth. This land was the home of race called the Auriteans and ruled by a succession of 10 kings. One of which, Thoth, came to to Egypt and was later deified as a god. A relief, accompanied by a description of "the loss of a drowned continent in the Western Ocean", is shown of Pillar Eight of the Great Hall of the Ramses temple at Karnak.

In Phonecian literature, the historian Sanchuniathon describe a continent in the west which was home to the "Aletean" people. It was ruled by 10 kings who lived in a capital of concentric rings of water and land. The place was later destroyed and sank into the ocean. One of the kings, Taautus is thought to correspond to the Egyptian god Thoth.

In Greek literature, the historian Hellanicus of Lesbos wrote Atlantis which describes a place called "Atlantis" founded by the god Poseidon and then by his firstborn son, Atlas. The historian, Herodotus, also indirectly mentions Atlantis in History (Book I, 202) by noting that the Atlantis Sea and Erythaean Sea are synonyms for the same body of water outside the strait of Gibralter.

In Sanskrit literature, Vishnu Purana tells of an island called "Atala" which was located in the ocean off the western coast of Africa between 24 and 28 degrees North Latitude. the capital of this Island was Tripura which was divided into three concentric rings of land and water.

I maintain that www.atlantisquest.com does not constitute a reliable source. Hellanicus is mentioned elsewhere in the article (under "Plato's account"), Herodotus' "indirectly mentioning Atlantis" has previously been discussed here, and the connection of the other material with Plato's Atlantis story is purely conjectural and unsupported in other than fringe sources. I'm indeed sorry that you worked hard on this, but not everything that you see on the Internet is reliable information. You might also try reading the Wikipedia articles you've linked—such as Sanchuniathon—more carefully. Deor (talk) 03:29, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I maintain that it does constitute a reliable source under the wikipedia guidelines and NPOV. BTW the article on Sanchuniathon states how his work has been validated recently. i suggest you read the articles yourself. the material is neither conjectural nor are the supporting sources fringe in any way.--Gurdjieff (talk) 04:51, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

AtlantisQuest does not meet our criteria as a reliable source. If this claim were true, Egyptologists would have written about it as well as serious scholars of Atlantis such as Castleden, Luce, etc. Leonard isn't a reliable source either. And Sanchuniathon doesn't discuss a place called Atlantis. Please don't replace this. Dougweller (talk) 05:01, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Atlantis was made-up by Plato who infused his story with the 'credibility' of supposed alien (Egyptian in this case) and immensely ancient wisdom with the intent to present political theories. As such, no pre-Platonic ATLANTIS myths can exist. 87.202.135.117 (talk) 07:42, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

"of supposed alien (Egyptian in this case) and immensely ancient wisdom" eh yeah...You can understand that Egyptian civilatation and culture is a gift of Hellenic world,can't ya?Even the name "Egypt"is greek(Αιγαίου+Πτύον=the rear of Aigian Sea)...The first and only human civilatiation is the Hellenic one.All the rest are copies of thiat(yeah it's true,the Alien "Gods"taught Hellenes the technology but it's nothing to do this Atlantis) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.58.148.11 (talk) 11:03, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Atlantis found

Recently did a study on google earth. Turns out Greenland is the unfound continent of Atlantis. I'm a geologist so i know land can't just rise and fall. Green land is two pieces. The white island or island which fell into 'sin' is one piece representing lower nature (see the geology of Florida). The other piece is a Nordic mountain range connected to Norway and Spitzbergen. The African island was once in south Africa. The nordic mountain range was once below it connected to the tail of Antarctica. Thats how Antarctica rose, buckled land from a small tail. Its just a scab, that's why Greenland is covered with ice, just like Antarctica. Antarctica is the only continent that can rise from the ocean floor on the earth due to geocentricity of the planet. That's how powerful a pole shift is. They created two continental plates which lined Africa. Just look at the north pole region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asfd666 (talk • contribs) 02:50, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. If you can provide an independently published reliable source which substantiates these statements, that could be used. Otherwise, unfortunately, this would seem to qualify as original research as per WP:OR and probably could not be included in the article without some indication of support in a reliable source independent of the ideas author, or, at least, in a peer-reviewed publication like an academic journal. John Carter (talk) 03:01, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I do not have a source but for my own and google earth. Anyone can find it, however i explained how i did on my user talk page.--Asfd666 (talk) 07:53, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Fictional Atlantis

The late professor Willy Ley in his article "View over Atlantis" decided that Plato/Platon was using the invasion of the Sea People as the origins of his othwerwise fictional story of AtlantisAT Kunene (talk) 17:59, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

First paragraph

This seems contradictory. Athens was around in 500BC and wasn't around in 9600 BC, during the time it is said Atlantis existed. The last line either needs clarification or it's inaccurate.

"According to Plato, Atlantis was a naval power lying 'in front of the Pillars of Hercules' that conquered many parts of Western Europe and Africa 9,000 years before the time of Solon, or approximately 9600 BC. After a failed attempt to invade Athens, Atlantis sank into the ocean 'in a single day and night of misfortune.'"

Sidelight12 ^Talk 15:44, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

This is what Plato claims, and it is this claim that forms the basis of the myth of Atlantis.Slatersteven (talk) 18:45, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Did the volcanoes in the oceans burst forth?

Genesis 1:6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water (not clouds) above it.

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

A thick layer of water vapor would keep the Earth warm. The climate would immediately be cold in Siberia, if this layer would not exist. When was the ice age? Before rain fell on the earth or after it? Could Mammoths not escape from the water or ice (age)? Did they not have time to escape? Were mammoths drowned and frozen in the flood? [7]

"...all the springs of the great deep burst forth..." What is the meaning of these words? Did the volcanoes (Mid-ocean ridge) in the oceans burst forth? Could these eruptions changed the atmosphere and continents? "The mountains rose; the valleys sank down" Mid-ocean ridge [8] When Did the Mountains Rise? [9] [10]

Psalm 104 (NASB)

5 He established the earth upon its foundations,

So that it will not [g]totter forever and ever.

6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment;

The waters were standing above the mountains. (Before flood mountains were not so high)

7 At Your rebuke they fled,

At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away.

8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down (After flood mountains rose, ocean valleys sank down, flood waters are collected in the deep oceans)

To the place which You established for them.

9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over,

So that they will not return to cover the earth.

The first rising:

Genesis 1:9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.

Can be Atlantis and the flood related to each other? --AltıncıTas (talk) 01:58, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

You maybe miss the point. Wikipedia is not the place to "make" a theory, but to report on a theory. Is there e.g. a book presenting the subject? This could be included. But not something which exists in Wikipedia, only. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 13:23, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I did not write it to make a theory. These ideas already exist. But many of these ideas are not taken into account. I have written to draw attention to these ideas. I have read the information in a book many years ago. This book contained these thoughts. Title of the book: "Mukaddes Kitap Gerçekten Tanrı'nın Sözü müdür? (Turkish): "Is the Bible Really the Word of God" Publisher: Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania. I currently do not have this book. Some pages on the Internet have a similar (but not exactly the same, for example, the length of the days of creation) description: http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/scientific_evidence_for_a_worldwide_flood.htm http://www.earthage.org/sea_sloths_and_out_of_order_fossils.htm --AltıncıTas (talk) 18:52, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Books from the Watch Tower Society are not satisfactory. The whole idea does not look acceptable from a reasonable point of view, this is rather belief than science. Not enough evidence in it, too speculative. So we can forget it. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 19:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Anyway, not a problem. [11] --AltıncıTas (talk) 02:42, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Elimination of section References-Modern Interpretations

I would like to dissolve this section and to move the contained books and articles in the common further reading list. Nothing is deleted, only moved. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 12:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Sounds sensible. It's my opinion that all references should be used and cited as sources, and if they aren't they should be in another section, eg further reading. Dougweller (talk) 14:05, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, the job is done, already. The only danger is that somebody takes away an entry from "Further Reading" without noticing that it is cited (but there were such cases already before the change). A solution could be the rule that footnotes have to cite in full, then the citations and the further reading are independent. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 14:13, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Reorganization of external links

Current:

The current external links are not all satisfying:

"Atlantis" in John Clute and John Grant, eds., Encyclopedia of Fantasy (1997)

To stay: Very good page delivering the cultural impact, novels, etc.

Ancient Atlantis Texts : Plato, Diodorus Siculus, et al.

To stay: Very good page delivering source texts!

Atlantis, at sacred-texts.comAtlantis, at sacred-texts.com

To be deleted: Mystic page presenting mystic books online.

IMHO a link for the location hypothesis article, not here.

New Findings on the Location of Atlantis

To be deleted: Newspaper article on the 2011 claim that Atlantis was found in Spain.

IMHO not valid to be here, any more. If, then in location hypothesis article.

Sinking Atlantis – PBS

To be deleted: Link not working any more. And only one video? Not convincing.

 

Suggested new external links in the article:

PS: Titles of Web links improved (as in the article now). --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 20:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Theoi Greek Mythology: Collection of ancient texts on Atlantis (Plato, Diodorus Siculus, et al.)

Stays the same, see above. Surely the best link of all.

DMOZ Web link collection: Atlantis

New: The most known independent weblink collection.

Atlantis-Scout.de: Multilingual collection of academic articles, Web links, videos, etc.

New

Atlantipedia.ie: Encyclopedic collection of information on Atlantis.

New: Most known encyclopedic collection of information on Atlantis on the internet.

Skeptic's dictionary: Atlantis

New

Atlantis in John Clute and John Grant, eds., Encyclopedia of Fantasy (1997)(1997)

Stays the same, see above.

 

Please let me know your thoughts on this. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 15:09, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Reorganization inserted in the article, now. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 20:29, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Adding a location hypothesis Web link

A French geologist and mining engineer, Jean Deruelle (1915-2001), whose work was published by a well-known French publisher of historical books but is not yet translated into english, situated the Great Plain of Atlantis in Doggerland, with precise scientific arguments, positing that the ditches of unbelievable dimensions mentioned in Plato were in fact dykes, backed up against the Doggerbank and the Frisian Islands. He takes into account in great detail the effects of the disappearance of the Ice Sheets on sea levels, but also on ground levels. A translation of his chapters is to be read in q-mag.org, to which I have added a link: [12] The Great Plain of Atlantis - was it in Doggerland? in q-mag.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amideg (talk • contribs) 07:44, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Generally, special Web links to certain location hypotheses cannot be added here. They belong to the location hypothesis article. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 18:36, 26 June 2013 (UTC)