Talk:Assassination of Gotthilf Wagner

Whitewashing of Nazi

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Assassination_of_Gotthilf_Wagner&diff=1039081785&oldid=1039080448 is not acceptable. These aren't "Jewish reports" the source writes "In fact, Gotthilf Wagner had been a member of the Nazi party in Palestine. His membership no. 7024779 is recorded at the Public Record Office in London and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. " Repeating his Nazi family denials is not acceptable. Free1Soul (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Please can we lower the temperature here, and importantly stick to WP:AGF.

The fact that he had been a member of the Nazi party is clear. We can absolutely mention that.

The sensitive issue underlying issue is why was he killed. Claims alluding to his Nazi Party membership are one of many reasons given for his killing, so they need attribution to the specific underlying sources. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:13, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

If the BBC, a non-Jewish source, can state that "Contemporary reports say Wagner was targeted because he had been a prominent Nazi." so can this encyclopedia, without the ethnically charged, to put it mildly, "Jewish reports". Inf-in MD (talk) 18:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I ask again, please can we lower the temperature here. This terminology is usual in scholarly works describing the history of the Intercommunal conflict in Mandatory Palestine. If you like we can replace "Jewish" with "Yishuv", but I was simply following Wawrzyn. It has nothing to do with ethnicity/race/religion - this is about describing a community in Palestine who was fighting a physical and a propaganda battle. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:03, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The terminology you used ("Jewish reports") is not used in ANY of the sources I've seen, and for good reason - it has the unmistakable stench of ethnically charged well-poisoning. You are misreporting what Wawrzyn wrote. She most certainly did not say this was "Jewish reports', but rather that "from the Jewish point of view Wagner was seen as an ardent Nazi and the leader of the Germans in Palestine". Again, If the BBC, a non-Jewish source, can state that "Contemporary reports say Wagner was targeted because he had been a prominent Nazi." so can this encyclopedia. Inf-in MD (talk) 19:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

We cannot use BBC's vague language to imply something was a mainstream opinion, when they do not say that. The BBC is a news organization; news organizations are not specialists in history.

Wawzryn is a secondary source here, whereas BBC is a tertiary source when writing about history (BBC journalists rarely do primary research when writing short historical articles – if they do so they make it very clear). Secondary sources are used in preference to tertiary sources in Wikipedia.

Wawzryn is a specialist source focused solely on the topic we are discussing. The BBC is a generalist source, with no particular expertise in this area of history. Wawzryn provides a specific description; the BBC uses loose language.

Onceinawhile (talk) 21:33, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Wawzryn does not use your terminology, and does not call these Jewish reports. No source, secondary or tertiary, uses that terminology, and your insistence on it makes it increasingly harder for me to assume you are doing this in good faith. Inf-in MD (talk) strike sock

OK we can use text following more closely to Wawzryn. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Something missing at the moment is that assassins did not reveal themselves (and could not, as the British would have arrested them). When was the truth revealed? Also, what does "contemporary reports" mean if the details were secret at the time? It could be based on an anonymous announcement, or it could be contemporary press speculation. Without more information, we don't know. Zero^talk 03:07, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Another source

Jewish Telegraphic Agency:[1]

Sarona Mayor, Prominent Palestine Nazi and S.S. Leader, Shot to Death Near Tel Aviv

March 22, 1946

Gotthilf Wagner, former mayor of the German colony of Sarona, near Tel Aviv, and one of the leading Palestine Nazis, was today shot to death as he journeyed from Sarona to Wilhelma, another German community. Before the war he was a S.S. group leader.

The attack took place on the outskirts of Tel Aviv. One man alighted from a taxi and approached the car in which Wagner and a police escort were sitting, and opened fire. No one else in the car was hurt. The attacker immediately re-entered the taxi and fled. Although Wagner was carrying over $3,000, no money was taken.

Wagner, an owner of a large iron foundry in Jaffa, was interned by the Palestine Government during the war. He acted as liaison agent between the other detained Palestine Nazis and the Administration, and also served as trustee for their property. Throughout the war he paid taxes to the Tel Aviv municipality in order to maintain German claims to various plots of land in the city.

Onceinawhile (talk) 19:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The Jews of Palestine hated Germans, and nobody can blame them. From this it follows as night follows day that stories of dubious value abounded. In this source we see the story that Wagner was not only in the SS but held the very high rank of SS-Gruppenführer (the third highest rank, equivalent to English Major-General). Check the list here to see the sort of people who held that rank and consider how likely it is that a minor Palestinian-German businessman could hold it. It is absurd on its face and both WP:EXTRAORDINARY and WP:FRINGE tell us to ignore it. This also casts overall doubt on this source. Similarly, an impossible story can be found that he tortured Jews in Auschwitz at the same time as he was interred in Palestine. We have a duty to separate the wheat from the chaff. Zero^talk 02:54, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm also concerned that the generally excellent book of Nachman Ben-Yehuda relies for background on the work of journalist Habib Kanaan. Kanaan was the one who originated the story of the plot to poison the Tel-Aviv water supply, which is now known to have never happened. He originated at least one other fake story too. Zero^talk 03:15, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

For the record, there are three Wagner entries in the 6-volume "Die Generale der Waffen-SS und der Polizei" by Schulz, Wegner and Zinke which is series 5 of the standard reference "Deutschlands Generale und Admirale" (2012) and needless to say Gotthilf Wagner is not one of them. Zero^talk 02:00, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Nazi party membership

To editor Onceinawhile: Now I have a list of the Palestinian-Germans who were members of the Nazi party, compiled in 1946 from the records of the Nazi Party in Germany. It confirms that Wagner was member number 7024779. An interesting thing is that he only joined in March 1939, later than more than 95% of the total. Zero^talk 09:53, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Zero0000. Do you have any idea whether Nazi party membership was expected (or required) of any mayors or other members of municipal governments throughout Germany at the time? My knowledge of the era is quite limited. Would be helpful to contextualize Wagner’s membership, and whether being a member can reasonably be used to suggest anything about his political ideology. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:48, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: As in all authoritarian regimes, joining the ruling party in Germany was a way to get ahead. What that means for Wagner, I don't know, unfortunately. Without more information, it's hard to draw conclusions that are not speculative. Do you know when he became mayor? I think the previous mayor was Max Frank. Zero^talk 00:49, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

two more relevant sources(?)

...I don't know if they mention Wagner, though:

• Balke, Ralf (2001). Hakenkreuz im Heiligen Land: Die NSDAP-Landesgruppe Palästina. Erfurt: Sutton. ISBN 3-89702-304-0.

• Sauer, Paul: Vom Land um den Asperg im Namen Gottes nach Palästina und Australien: Die wechselvolle Geschichte der Tempelgesellschaft, lecture held on 20 October 1995 in Burgstetten on the occasion of the 750th anniversary of Kirschenhardthof, printed as Schriftenreihe TG, No. 1 (1996)

I saw User:Ulf Heinsohn add stuff from them at the Bethlehem of Galilee-article; perhaps he knows more? Huldra (talk) 23:30, 14 September 2021 (UTC)