Talk:Askia Muhammad I

Evidence

"Due to his efforts, Songhai experienced a cultural revival it had never witnessed before, and the whole land flourished as a center of all things valuable in learning and trade." This statement requires much more support. I know precolonial work is pretty slim nowadays, but "blackhistorypages.net" does not suffice as a source for this sort of claim, and the language employed here is not indicative of rigorous scholarship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.126.241.221 (talk) 01:24, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Askia Means ...

When one of Sunni Ali's daughters heard the news of his conquest, she cried out "Askia," which means "forceful one." I want to add this but need more research.--Halaqah 18:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I just read in Smithsonian that Askia forbade Jews to live in Timboctu. This was an unusual prohibition for a Muslim ruler of the time. Jews were not generally discriminated against in that part of the world. Was there anything specific in Askia's experience that caused him to deliver this edict I am so haapy vicky i love vicky

Successor

It says there was no Successor , seems a little odd since the empire did not end with him there was (for example) Askiya Ismail and Daoud after that.--Inayity (talk) 07:00, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

"Al-Sudan"

Al-Sudan does not mean "Africa", it literally translates to "The Black Land", a term that does not include the entire continent. Early European mappers of the region called it "Guinea" and "Negroland", as they were referencing Arabic / Arab maps with those terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HiddenHistoryPedia (talk • contribs) 15:15, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Mother's name

Ibdawud, do you have a source regarding the proper spelling of the name of Askiya Muhammad's mother? "Kassaye" is the spelling given in the source I used, and "Mamar Kassey" only seems to turn up information about a Nigerien music group. I'm not doubting you; I just would like for that information to be sourced, and a source indicating which spelling variant is most preferable would be useful—we're already up to Kasay, Kassey, Kassaye, and Kassaï having been used in at least some version of the article. Ornithopsis (talk) 19:06, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Ornithopsis, There you go. Here are some sources with this spelling.

[1] [2][3] [4][5][6] [7] Ibdawud (talk) 00:22, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the sources. However, one of those sources ("How is otherness represented") doesn't seem to mention Kassey/Kassaye at all. The others use the spelling Kassey, but none appear to give any indication of why that spelling is preferable (and one, "Si Ali and Askia Mohammed" also uses the alternate spellings of Kassai and Kasse). "Mamar Kassaye" turns up 21 results on Google Scholar, whereas "Mamar Kassey" turns up 28 results, nearly all of which pertain to a music group of that name. "Askia Kassey" turns up 20 results, compared to "Askia Kassaye" with 26. It seems to me that "Kassaye" is the most common spelling, and I don't see any evidence of a reason to prefer Kassey over it. Ornithopsis (talk) 02:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Kassey is the most popular spelling even among Songhai artists. I'm afraid the non-songhai readers may be tempted to acknowledge the last 'e' in the "kassaye" which will give it a different pronunciation. The correct pronunciation is much closer to "Kassai" and "Kassey". The name itself I believe is the corruption of the Arabic name Bilqis. The modern version is "Kissaï" which is a very common nickname for anyone called Bilqis in the Songhai society.

Secondly, she is mostly addressed with the Sonni Dynasty royal title which is "Si" (i.e. "Si Kassey"). These are some songs that makes mention of her name. I don't know if we can use these as souces to include her royal title in her name on wiki.

1. [8] (2:10)

2. [9] (4:40)

3. [10] (0:10)

Note; These are Songhai praise songs. You'll hear them mention "Maiga" which means, King/prince and "Hama", meaning "descendants" at the end of each name.

It mostly goes like "Maiga Si Hama,Si Kassey Hama, Mamar Hama" and sometimes "Dawuda Hama"(Dawuda is one of the son's of Askia") . They are basically acknowledging the different factions of the Songhai society and the lineages one comes from.

The "Si Hama" are the descendants of Sonni Ali Ber, "Si Kassey Hama" are that of of Askia's mother and "Mamar Hama" are that of Askia himself. Ibdawud (talk) 16:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

OK, so the pronunciation I'm hearing is approximately /kɑːsˈseɪ/, to the best of my ability to transcribe a language I'm not familiar with into my vague understanding of the International Phonetic Alphabet. For what it's worth, I think "Kassaye" got me slightly closer to the correct pronunciation than "Kassey" did (I was picturing "Kassaye" as ending in /eɪ/ and "Kassey" as ending in /iː/), but I wasn't sure if "Kassaye" was two or three syllables. You're clearly more familiar with this subject than I am, and it's clear that both spellings are in use, so I'm not going to challenge you on the spelling. However, I do think it would be nice if there was a source—there are so many variants of how to record West African names in the Latin alphabet, and it would be nice if we had sources that helped us with a standardized presentation. Ornithopsis (talk) 18:02, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Sir! I'd do well in finding a source that will help us with a standardized presentation.

I agree with you. I was thinking more about uniformity with the music group "Mamar Kassey" page. For now though, you can go on and edit it back to "Kassaye" since it has more Google scholar search results. But do well in acknowledging all the alternative spellings especially the "Kassey" just as it is been done on most wiki articles with words that have more than one popular spelling. I think that will best. Thank you once more! Ibdawud (talk) 19:17, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Ornithropist

The source of askya father name baru lum not sure because in songhay language we are not recognized the baru lum term to illustrate name abi bakr , in songhay language Abubakar are Abubakar not baru lum Muhammad Abubakar izey(Muhammad son of Abubakar) is songhay truly terms to express the name ibn abi bakr Zahamey (talk) 00:43, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I am just following my understanding of what the sources I have read say. According to Hunwick (2003) and Bühnen (2005), the Tarikh al-Fattash says his father was called "Baru (i.e. Abu Bakr) Lum (Lomo?)". Hunwick (2003) also translates the Tarikh al-Sudan as saying "As for Askiya al-hajj Muhammad's father, his name was Abu Bakr, also called Bar(u). Some say he was Turanke, while others say he was Silanke." The impression I got from that was that his father's name was Baru Lum, and Baru was equivalent to the Arabic name Abu Bakr. Now that I have reread the sources I was using, I suppose that what they are saying might be that he was named Abu Bakr and nicknamed Baru. If you could link to any sources that address this issue, that would be helpful. In any case, if you believe the article needs to be corrected, the infobox is not the only place in the article that says his father was named Baru Lum, so the Early Life section would need that to be changed as well. Ornithopsis (talk) 03:38, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Origins Controversy Section is a mess

Origins Controversy section is a lengthy, messy, and thereby difficult to parse wall of text with little citation or standard English grammar adherence. It is recommended that the whole section be revised, as it does seem to convey some useful information.

[Edit] One second note, this entire article ought to be revised after going through it in full. It looks like multiple authors have jangled together separate sections to the result of extreme repetitiveness; one wonders whether "descent from Askiya Mohammed" ought to have a separate article, as does Descent from Genghis Khan, if so much space is to be dedicated to it on an article that is about the man (for reference, the Genghis Khan article itself only occasionally references Genghis' descendants.

HiddenHistoryPedia (talk) 15:02, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Good call, but since it's all unsourced shouldn't we just delete all the descent stuff? Unless someone wants to go and dig up sources for it. Catjacket (talk) 22:21, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Agree completely, I’m pretty sure someone just copied this off another website or scanned a textbook or something, but there seems to be no regard for spelling or grammar, or in some cases, even just getting the facts right. This whole article needs to be rewritten again by people who can actually take the time to get it correct. Huzam001 (talk) 12:22, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

peoei no you sda no you LA Liga Comunidad keep saying I have been in my head in a new

no you lala 173.246.210.32 (talk) 23:42, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Iarba Birno?

The internet doesn't say a lot, but I have found a reference to a place Larba Birno. -- Evertype·✆ 17:54, 2 June 2023 (UTC)