Talk:Arrowverse/Archive 8

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Include Supergirl?

Should "Supergirl" be included in the main series list despite the show not being set in the Arrowverse? Same question goes for the live-action "Constantine" and "Freedom Fighters," since they’re in the same/similar boats. Ashleighhhh (talk) 03:17, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

@Ashleighhhh: Um, what? It is now? -- Alex^TW 03:23, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Ohh, I see, you attempted to remove it. Please see the discussion above for the RFC that concluded that it should be included. -- Alex^TW 03:26, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Constantine live action new references to original series

In the Constantine guest spot in the Legends of Tomorrow episode "Daddy Dharkest" John Constantine mentions Astra multiple times. Astra is the little girl whose soul John condemned to hell to set up the events of the NBC Constantine series. Further, she mentions the place where it happened (Newcastle) to Sarah Lance by name, as if it's a place she should be aware of. And he writes down his phone number on a sheet of paper. It's the same number as seen on his business cards in the original series as well as his Arrow crossover appearance.

That firmly establishes the events of the series as canonical. There's no reason to keep it separated from the Arrowverse in general. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:283:4302:4C2E:501:720F:3880:6333 (talk) 00:27, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your original research. Please cite a reliable source that says the above, or publish your original observation in a reliable source so that we can cite you. DonQuixote (talk) 02:44, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

2601:283:4302:4C2E:501:720F:3880:6333 (talk) 17:00, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

The phone number bit: https://www.cbr.com/legends-of-tomorrow-constantine-easter-egg/

Astra/Newcastle: http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/02/13/legends-of-tomorrow-daddy-darhkest-john-constantine-easter-eggs/#3

A couple other things from the old Arrow crossover I didn't mention

John refenences having restored a soul before. He did this to Chas Chandler's daughter on-screen in the Constantine episode: http://comicbook.com/2015/11/04/arrow-easter-eggs-and-dc-comics-references-in-haunted/

It also mentions the business cards being the same in the link.

And finally, in episodes of their respective series both John Constantine and The Flash read the same scientific journal publication. This was while both shows were airing in the same season. Not the same issue, and it's conceivable that the same publication would exist on multiple earths, so it's not really a confirmation by itself. But it is a link. I cannot recall or hunt down the name of the publication at the moment or I would provide a link for this as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:283:4302:4c2e:501:720f:3880:6333 (talk • contribs)

Thanks for providing sources for those Easter Eggs and we can mention them in the appropriate places. However, be careful of differentiating between what the sources say and what you want them to say. Particularly, please review WP:SYNTH. That is, if you can't start with a direct quote then it probably shouldn't be in an encyclopaedia article. DonQuixote (talk) 17:20, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Animated series episode tables

Vixen had its weekly release for both seasons, and these could be neatly placed as combined rows and summaries, back when they were released. However, this no longer appears to be the case for FF:TR and C:COD, which both appear to be having their first (and only?) seasons both released in two parts. Using the same format for FF:TR and C:COD (as we're currently doing) will start to become impractical, as we'll be summarizing 12 episodes in one summary (as opposed to the 6 per season for Vixen), and the two separate releases in one row. Nor FF:TR and C:COD require both the "No. overall"/"No. in season" columns, as there is only one season. Given this, I think we should simply revert back to regular episode table format (as seen here in my sandbox). Thoughts? -- Alex^TW 07:30, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I'd be okay with this, but don't feel the need we have to be exactly uniform across each of the series. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:03, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm good with this as well. Just some of the episode summaries need to be fixed so they can stand on their own (ie. not having "When they" start a summary). - Brojam (talk) 22:04, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree, it's just that when the second lot of episodes are released for both series, it's going to become far too cluttered, so it's best to work on it now instead of when we have 12 episodes summarized in one row. -- Alex^TW 00:32, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I mean, the other way is to just remove the season headers and "No. overall" for the 1-season series, (as seen here in this version of my sandbox). I'm just not sure on the N/A titles. -- Alex^TW 12:01, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

AGREE - the current layout is bloated and messy. Having two tables - one for live action series, and one for cartoon series would be a good move.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:21, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

What? 1) This was already implemented, 2) I'm not sure what you said relates to this discussion at all? This wasn't talking about a table for live action series and one for animated series. -- Alex^TW 02:16, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Constantine: City of Demons dosent belong here

As is said on the Wikipedia entry of Constantine: City of Demons, it has no connection to the live action Constantine nor the Arrowverse as a whole, it is instead connected to Matt Ryan's other animated appearances, such as Justice League Dark, meaning it shouldn't be mentioned in a Wikipedia page about the Arrowverse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.252.115.210 (talk) 15:01, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Disagree. Just because he has played the role in several cartoons, doesn't mean that this animated CW TV series is linked to those direct to video releases.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:07, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

No, but this quote from the author does. https://twitter.com/JMDeMatteis/status/979120312561356803 MarioFan78 (talk) 01:12, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Arrowverse episode articles

Original discussion started at User talk:Brojam#Arrowverse articles. Short version: Proposition to form a group to define a clearer, objective expectation for episode article creation here (not simply, "it's a finale so it's important") and review the current list to see who needs to be merged to a season page and who should stay.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:12, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Like I said at my talkpage, I'm all for going over the current Arrowverse episodes and redirecting those that do not have a decent amount of production & reception info. - Brojam (talk)

As I noted in the first discussion, the majority of the Supergirl episode articles can probably be redirected. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:57, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. All the Supergirl episodes, except "Pilot", "Worlds Finest, and maybe "Medusa", should be redirected. - Brojam (talk) 19:04, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Yeah I'm agreed to start there. "Worlds Finest" and "Medusa" would need some additional work, but they should be articles. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:29, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Constantine: City of Demons

As far as I can tell, this series is NOT set in the Arrowverse and should not be listed on this page. According to the series' writer, it is set in the same universe as the Justice League Dark movie (i.e the DC Animated Movie Universe) and as of this moment is not part of the Arrowverse.

"Not a continuation of the series. It IS in the same universe as the JL DARK movie and I guess time will tell if it's in the Arrowverse!: - J.M. DeMatteis

Unless a source can be found that specifically states it's part of the Arrowverse, it should not be re-added. Speculation about whether it is or not should not be a factor when the writer of the series says otherwise. MarioFan78 (talk) 01:11, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Here are some recent sources: [1] [2] [3]. - Brojam (talk) 01:31, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Sources seem good. They should probably be added to this article, as well as the Constantine page so this confusion does not happen anymore. I checked most of the sources in relation to the show and only found information on it not being in the Arrowverse. A not helpful response about the talk page didn't make it any more clear either. There needs to be a mention that it's set in I guess both The DCAMU and Arrowverse. MarioFan78 (talk) 03:20, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, as you say, the overwhelming majority of articles support what the creators say... that it's part of the Justice League Dark universe, and not Arrowverse. If you read it closely, the CBR article doesn't even state that it is Arrowverse. The other two journalists mentioning in passing along with the other CW Seed animated series, and assuming that it is part of the Arrowverse (as it was at one time going to be) doesn't override the other sources! ‑‑Yodin^T 10:26, 2 August 2018 (UTC) P.S. At best these could be used to support something along the lines of "sources are divided on whether it is part of the Arrowverse, with writer DeMatteis saying 'I guess time will tell if it's in the Arrowverse!'". ‑‑Yodin^T 10:41, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

I would remove the Arrowverse connection until we get an official confirmation from the CW. Those passing mentions by people who are not connected with the series are not good enough. The Ozzy Mandias (talk) 11:41, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Their connection is irrelevant, no matter your opinion. Read WP:SECONDARY: Policy: Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. And while DeMatteis is the author, his social media cannot be used as a source as it is not a verified account. -- Alex^TW 14:03, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

At some point someone officially needs to state that the show is part of the Arrowverse. Until then it's only the author's personal interpretation. Also not quite sure whether these three sites qualify as "reliable sources". The Ozzy Mandias (talk) 14:14, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Eventually, sure. However, Wikipedia is based primarily on secondary sources. If we only used "official" sources, we wouldn't have an encyclopedia. -- Alex^TW 00:11, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree about whether these should be considered reliable to support the statement; the claim that City of Demons is part of the Arrowverse is in both cases mentioned very much in passing, so WP:BALANCE would mean that these should not be presented on the same level as, say this Comicbook.com article which addresses the question of whether City of Demons is part of the Arrowverse directly, the articles seem to lack strong editorial oversight and fact-checking, making them border on WP:QS. Happy to take this to WP:RSN for some neutral opinions. ‑‑Yodin^T 12:58, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Honestly, the sheer confusion about whether this is or isn't part of the Arrowverse leads me to believe it's not. Unlike the other shows, which are very clearly said to be part of the Arrowverse. MarioFan78 (talk) 22:10, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

This shouldn't be on this page. I thought it was clear that it was tied to the Dark Justice film, as it's the same visual design and seemed to be tied to their animated film universe.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:10, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Here's a brand new source reviewing the full City of Demons content that does confirm the series is more sequel to the JLD animated film than the live action series or the Arrowverse. Any objections to it being removed from here? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:02, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

I would support its removal. Looks like it won't continue its episodic release; not even the author is sure [4]. Perhaps it would be best if it was converted to a film article, with a note on its original episodic release. -- Alex^TW 02:51, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to remove it from here then, and we can shift the format discussion to the actual article for City of Demons. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:22, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Constantine TV series

I am revisiting this as there has apparently been a consensus before stating that the Constantine show is not a part of the Arrowverse. I am not about to go searching through all the archives as to how/why this was done. My argument here is the actor has continued to play the same character, and will do so in the animated series. Each of those share continuity, and if the animated series is here, why not the live-action series?--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:17, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

That's pure original research. You would need a direct quote from a reliable source. DonQuixote (talk) 18:41, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

It's not at all required when the cartoon is a continuation of the live action series.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 19:07, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

You have yet to provide a reliable source that says that. DonQuixote (talk) 19:10, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

As of now, City of Demons is not a continuation of the NBC series. --Kailash29792 (talk) 05:56, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough, but the fact Legends of Tomorrow continues the continuity of the NBC series, with direct references to events and characters in several episodes of the recent season, would support that the live-action show is part of the Arrowverse. 50.66.121.20 (talk) 20:51, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Please cite a reliable source verifying that fact. DonQuixote (talk) 20:54, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Good point, 50.66.121.20. @DonQuixote:... a reference is not needed when it is common knowledge (ie: verifiable by watching the series).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:01, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Does Legends of Tomorrow or the animated series directly say, within any episode, that "this series is a direct continuation of the live-action series"? No? Therefore, a reference is needed; an episode can only act as a primary source for content explicitly stated. -- Alex^TW 04:08, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I feel like I read them saying that it's the same character, but that the series itself isn't discussed or really existing. No other character is likely to come over. It's mostly that people like the actor so he's reprising his role. I think that we shouldn't be doing revisionist history on the article simply because it's the same actor.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:58, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Yeah it's always been the same character, but after that it gets pretty murky. And just because it's the same character ≠ the entire series is thus in this fictional universe. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:09, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

I find this debate laughable. For example: a film series does not require that every character within the first film appears in the 3rd, 5th, nor 10th film. Neither should it be required that all the characters in Constantine appear in the other Arrowverse shows, before it's "explicite" enough for you bunch. Cheers.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:33, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Your personal opinion is noted, but is completely irrelevant in the face of sources. Thank you. -- Alex^TW 02:39, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Sean Connery appeared in Never Say Never Again--it's not considered part of the EON James Bond franchise. DonQuixote (talk) 03:17, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Black Lightning

The newest trailer for upcoming seasons in the Arrowverse, shown at the San Diego Comic-Con includes Black Lightning, with references to a giant crossover. Looks like the series will be worked into the Arrowverse after all. Therefor it should be included here.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:07, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

We editors aren't supposed to make this decision--we should reflect what reliable sources are saying. So unless reliable sources commonly and consistently do so, or the primary sources (eg, the producers) do so, no it shouldn't. DonQuixote (talk) 18:13, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

And the inclusion of the character in their Arroverse trailer/video isn't a reliable source to you.....?--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:17, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

No, because 1) it's not an Arrowverse trailer (it's a CW trailer) and, most importantly, 2) you can't get a direct quote from it. You would need to cite a source that directly says that Black Lightning is part of the Arrowverse. DonQuixote (talk) 18:39, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

....if it was a CW trailer it would include all other CW TV shows....--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 19:06, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

See, that's why we should rely on reliable sources because it's easy to stray into original research. DonQuixote (talk) 19:11, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

All that said, there's been enough media coverage asking the question of whether Black Lightning is an Arrowverse series (with the people involved in the show giving ambiguous answers) that I think it's worth adding a line somewhere to the effect that the inclusion of the series in the Arrowverse is, as of the summer of 2018, uncertain. That might head off people adding B.L. to this article thinking it has been omitted. On a related note, I think there should be more discussion included about the 1990 series The Flash, as the current reference omits the fact that numerous characters from the older series have now appeared in the 2014 series, most notably Mark Hamill's The Trickster - enough that I would contend that it deserves its own section as a retroactive addition to the Arrowverse, just as Constantine has. 50.66.121.20 (talk) 20:49, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

50.66.121.20 - Totally agree, especially given this new development that during the 2018 crossover with all the series, John Wesley Shipp will reprise his role as Barry Allen / The Flash from the original '90s TV show. You can see that here.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:28, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

@DonQuixote: - the trailer was for the new seasons of the Arrowverse. Not for The CW tv shows.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Source backing up that last statement? -- Alex^TW 02:33, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

@AlexTheWhovian:, are you for real? Watch the trailer yourself. It only has Arrowverse trailers throughout it. Not to mention Black Lightning meets the other heroes in it. No other CW shows are shown. Pretty freaking clear what the trailer states.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:36, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Let me make that easter egg link clearer: Do you have a source backing up that last statement that isn't WP:OR? -- Alex^TW 02:38, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Trailer states it clear enough. "Noone has time for the new guy...." -- Is that easter egg clear enough for you? Again it's for the Arrowverse. Not The CW.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:44, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

So, nothing here but your OR. Cheers. -- Alex^TW 02:46, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Stephen Amell, who has taken a larger role in the TV franchise and definitely has more insight into it than you do has also stated "Everyone keeps pretending like we're not going to crossover with Black Lightning...." Is he referring to us, or you, or who exactly here?--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:49, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

He also has more insight into it than you do. "Stephen Amell Thinks Arrow/Black Lightning Crossover Will Happen". Keyword: THINKS. Quotes: "The latest addition to The CW's ever expanding superhero line-up, Black Lightning, has been firmly stated to exist outside of the Arrowverse." "Despite obvious thematic similarities, Black Lightning was never designed to be apart of the multiverse launched by Arrow." Anything else? -- Alex^TW 02:52, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) And? DC had crossovers with Marvel multiple times--doesn't mean that they're part of the same franchise let alone the same company. Also, lots of other different franchise/TV shows have had crossovers--it doesn't mean that their respective franchises/TV shows should be combined into one.

And the above is your personal interpretation, which can be challenged. Cite a reliable source that says any of the above. If your argument is solely composed of trying to convince the other party rather than citing a reliable source that you can directly quote, then it's probably original research. DonQuixote (talk) 02:57, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Whoever's comment was above yours, @DonQuixote: didn't sign their comment. The second that the Arrowverse crosses over with Riverdale, Charmed, or Supernatural - then the statement is accurate. As-is it's way off-base.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:01, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

The moment that the Simpsons crosses over with Family Guy, then the statement is accurate. Oh, wait, that already happened. DonQuixote (talk) 03:02, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Oh yeah, also, the moment that Supernatural crosses over with Scooby-Doo, then the statement is accurate. That also happened. DonQuixote (talk) 03:06, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

You clearly don't understand what I stated. I said that given the trailer is for the Arrowverse, and not The CW - Black Lightning is planting seeds to be directly in the Arrowverse. It is not my personal 'interpretation' as there were no characters from Charmed, Riverdale, Supernatural, nor True Blood in the promo short (i.e. other CW shows). They were all Arrowverse material. The promo is a followup to the successful and well-received "Super Hero Fight Club" promo episodes. You examples of The Simpsons and Scooby-Doo are poor refutes. Those are merely cross-over episodes, where the "Suit Up" promo is a short within the Arrowverse.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:35, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

And here the series name-drops Vixen and Supergirl in the same episode. And here it explains for you as you apparently don't understand it that the "Arrowverse" is a term for the DC TV multiverse. Black Lightning is clearly connected to the other shows.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:56, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

P.S. the San Diego Comic Con 2018 Arrowverse Trailer, is cannon to the TV universe. It had each of the supers suiting up for the crossover. You can't refute that. Cheers.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:58, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

And? Easter eggs like that don't mean diddly when a lot of other movies and TV shows do the same thing. Also, it's your interpretation that the trailer is "canon". Again, if you can't directly quote a source as saying what you want it to say, then it's probably original research.DonQuixote (talk) 03:00, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

@DonQuixote: you keep stating that, though you have no source that states your claim either. I clearly attached the links to the statements I made. You just have to click them.....--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:04, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Er, yeah, no...I'm not the one making a claim. You're the one making the claim, so the burden of responsibility of finding sources is on you. So, please, provide a direct quote that says anything like what you're saying. DonQuixote (talk) 03:07, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

You're the one stating that "other movies and tv shows do the same thing". No reference for this.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:15, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

From Doctor Who: The Television Companion by David J Howe and Stephen James Walker: Mention of 'Bernard' and 'the British Rocket Group' are in-joke references to Bernard Quatermass and his team as seen in Nigel Kneales seminal science fiction serials. There are no sources that considered Doctor Who and Quatermass to be part of the same franchise. DonQuixote (talk) 03:25, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Also, from Buzzfeed:

Charlie's [from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory] father works at a toothpaste factory that makes Smilex toothpaste, which is the same name of the chemical the Joker tries to kill the people of Gotham in Batman. Of course the connection is an easy one since Tim Burton directed both films.

An ad for Red Apple Cigarettes, the brand of cigarettes used throughout Pulp Fiction, can be seen in the background early in [Romy and Michele's High School Reunion]. The ad was a nod to Mira Sorvino's (Romy) then-boyfriend, Quentin Tarantino.

DonQuixote (talk) 03:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Not to mention the trailer has been titled "Arrowverse Suit Up" on various reliable sources.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:06, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

If what you say is true, then you can start an RFC--just like what happened here with Supergirl. DonQuixote (talk) 03:09, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

@DonQuixote: and @AlexTheWhovian: - legitimate, collaborative question: Similar videos were released in previous seasons titled "Superhero Fight Club". Are they considered canon to the TV shared universe? The "Suit Up" extended trailer/promo is a follow-up to the previously stated trailers.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:15, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

They're advertisements. So, unless the primary sources (the TV shows, producers, etc.) or enough secondary reliable sources consider them canon, editors considering whether or not they're canon is original research. DonQuixote (talk) 03:19, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

You missed my question, @DonQuixote:. Clearly I asked: "Are they considered canon to the TV shared universe?" Bleeding Cool seems to think so. Collider references the shorts as cross-series shorts. Screenrant states the obvious, as I have tried - that being: "despite not currently being attached to the Arrowverse as of yet..." the short, seems to indicate so. It's also noteworthy that "Super Hero Fight Club 2.0" officially introduced Supergirl as a part of the Arrowverse.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:31, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

And you missed If what you say is true [about the sources], then you can start an RFC--just like what happened here with Supergirl and unless the primary sources (the TV shows, producers, etc.) or enough secondary reliable sources consider them canon, editors considering whether or not they're canon is original research. DonQuixote (talk) 03:37, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

......@DonQuixote: I didn't miss your response. That's why I responded with the provided links (given you keep asking for reliable sources). You misunderstood my question, given you thought I meant I wondered what your opinion was. I wondered if the network/studios involved considered them canon which they clearly do given my provided sources....--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:43, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

And again I reiterate from earlier: "And here [it is point out] the series [(Black Lightning)] name-drops Vixen and Supergirl in the same episode. And here it explains for you as you apparently don't understand it that the "Arrowverse" is a term for the DC TV multiverse. Black Lightning is clearly connected to the other shows.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:56, 23 October 2018 (UTC)" --DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:43, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

From Newsweek: Lynn responds jokingly, “No I’m not Vixen, or Supergirl.” Jennifer being aware of Vixen suggests the series could actually take place in the Arrowverse, an overarching term that represents the multiverse where The Flash, Supergirl, Legends and Arrow take place. However, there's also a possibility Vixen was mentioned as a comic book character within the Black Lightning universe, just like Supergirl was earlier this season in Grace Choi's first scene.

And considering that the EW article is also speculating, probably not. DonQuixote (talk) 03:48, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

So, News Week's afterthought is such. Regardless Black Lightning is in the Arrowverse "Suit Up" promo short episode. What do you make of that?--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:51, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

The hilarious part of this debate is the fact that IDGA*flying*F about these cheeseball shows. I'm only trying to make the page more accurate per the Arrowverse short film I saw on YouTube... LMFAO.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:51, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

If you think enough reliable sources refer to it as the "Arrowverse 'Suit Up' promo", then you can start an RFC. Otherwise, if it doesn't hold enough weight, then this article shouldn't bend over backwards for a minority/fringe viewpoint. DonQuixote (talk) 03:56, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Listing animated shows in the intro paragraph

While I understand why some may want to include Vixen and The Ray in the intro paragraph, I think their inclusion is both awkward and awkwardly worded.

1) Are we really putting shows with total running times less than two hours on par with shows that have had multiple seasons with hundreds of hours of programming?

2) The version of Vixen depicted in her show has been erased by the events of Legends of Tomorrow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.229.80 (talk) 06:42, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Nothing is gauged by runtime. We are mentioning all of the official series in the universe and their lead actors, regardless of what may happen in-universe in other series. Hence their inclusion. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

It's still awkwardly written, with Vixen shoved into an overly long sentence with the live-action characters and poor The Ray left dangling at the end of the para as an afterthought. The prose would flow better if Vixen and The Ray were written together. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.229.80 (talk) 20:05, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I've tried to clean it up a bit. I removed all those starring roles, because we leave out so many characters. The marketing might be based on Amell, Gustin, etc., but Ramsey, Panabaker, etc. are also stars of their respective shows. This list, given that we're dealing with so many shows, is too long to put in the lead. This page is about the whole universe, not just crossovers or select people. I removed the bit about Constantine's show on NBC, because we still technically haven't been given a clear answer about that, plus the fact that the show was cancelled on NBC well before he ever crossover to the CW shows. So, it wasn't like they were borrowing an NBC character (which was what the wording was insinuating), as NBC was merely a distributor of a Warner Bros. product. Adjust it further how you like, or revert back if you think it's necessary.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 20:50, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Adjusted. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:51, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

That comment above was when I was adjusting and had a conflict on the article with you Big. To help summarize the article some too, I'm going to readd a bit at the end about the yearly crossovers, and Matt Ryan's Constantine. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:02, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Whoops. Didn't realize you were there too. LOL. I took the crossovers at the end out only because they were mentioned previous a the main way most of these series get created, but that's not always the case since they exist regardless of introducing someone. Wasn't really sure how to put Ryan in there without it just seeming like undue weight placed on his character.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 21:05, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

It seems a bit wrong to have Matt Ryan be the only mentioned actor in the lead. - Brojam (talk) 21:21, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I see no problem with incorporating Constantine into this article. True, his appearance on Arrow was a ret-con, but nothing in the narrative continuity or in the real world would contradict such an incorporation. Furthermore, being shown on different TV stations doesn't negate a shared universe. Supergirl was on CBS before it was on The WB. Star Trek was on NBC, TNG and DS9 were syndicated, and Voyager was on UPN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.229.80 (talk) 21:26, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

The Main series summaries

We shouldn't be putting season by season summaries of each of these shows on this page. They each already have a main page that does that and season pages. This page should be a concise overview of what the series is about. I just watched more plot information being added on the individual shows.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 20:00, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Complete agree. Each series section should include a short synopsis of the series and then information of the development of that series, similar to List of Marvel Cinematic Universe television series. It makes no sense to just copy and paste the summaries of each season from the series' main page.- Brojam (talk) 21:03, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Also agree. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:16, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Constantine

In this interview with Syfy Wire, Matt Ryan is asked, "How much of Constantine’s baggage is from what we have seen from you specifically playing this character on the NBC series and in the animated series? How much of that is being brought onto his backstory here?" and I think his answer to that question should confirm whether the Arrowverse Constantine is the same one from NBC's Constantine. --Kailash29792 (talk) 05:35, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Good interview. All his apperances on each series (NBC show, Justice League Dark, Constantine: City of Demons and Legends) are "different colors" but are "the same DNA of the character". So if I get this right, his Legends character is different from the other ones. John Constantine (Arrowverse) will need some changing since it treats it as the same character as the NBC show. We should add Ryan's comment somewhere on this article as well. - Brojam (talk) 02:23, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

I thought he confirmed the Legends Constantine is indeed the NBC Constantine by saying, "In terms of the storyline we did on the NBC show with the Brujeria, we won’t be getting into that. But John still carries that baggage around with him, especially the Astra storyline is so much of a driving force in John’s makeup I think, the fact that he damned that little girl to hell. That is definitely there." By this I think he means the Brujeria storyline indeed happened in the Arrowverse, but Legends will not be referencing it. --Kailash29792 (talk) 04:08, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

It's different.... but yet still the same. Specifically since he mentions how John is carrying the "baggage" of the Brujeria from the NBC show (despite Legends not delving into that) and, directly, the Astra guilt. So I'm reading this as it's the same character-ish, essentially how we've been dealing with it. I'll give a crack at adding the info in here, and anyone can revert or adjust it if they feel I'm mischaracterizing it. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:13, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Supergirl's future

This is very premature, but this article and others like it closer to the time could become quite helpful in sorting out the whole "is Supergirl part of the Arrowverse" debate, since it has only been settled by community consensus rather than reliable source. Something to keep an eye on. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:39, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. There's definitely be content to add on how while Supergirl is part of the "Arrowverse series", it'll be set to become part of the Arrowverse itself. Big times are ahead for us, it seems. -- Alex^TW 23:46, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

I would imagine Black Lightning would also join, it only makes sense. They've dropped hints they'd like to do a crossover and with the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover next year they do need more than three or four nights to tell that epic story. By then it's possible the Batwoman series will also premiere, giving us a six-episode event merging all these shows. Jmj713 (talk) 00:35, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

@Adamstom.97, AlexTheWhovian, and Jmj713: The interesting point this raises, is whether the name "Arrowverse" refers only to Earth-1 or whether it refers to The CW Multiverse (Earths 1-52; X; 90; etc.) as a whole. My opinion is that Supergirl does exist in the Arrowverse as the term refers to The CW Multiverse as a whole; I also personally believe that on-screen visual cues indicate that "Earth-Smallville" and "Earth-Freeland" (Black Lightning) exist somewhere out in The CW Multiverse too, but we can't canonically include those until they properly crossover on-screen. – Nick Mitchell 98 ^talk 12:51, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

@Nick Mitchell: That question was thoroughly discussed here Talk:Arrowverse/Archive 7. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:25, 7 January 2019 (UTC)