Talk:Arrano beltza

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A fact from Arrano beltza appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 27 March 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the arrano beltza, the black eagle flag of the Basque nationalist movement, derives from the seal used by Sancho III of Navarre a thousand years ago?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2006/March.

Wikipedia

I have modified the quote about Negu Gorriak as the original "Arrano Beltza" song was written and sang by Mikel Laboa on his "Bat-Hiru" album.

Issue with the Latin translation

This is incorrect. Could it be bad mediaeval Latin? Or did the original authors of the article made a typographical error? I don't know. I check the Spanish article and it makes the same mistake. Regum isn't a word.

"Rex Hispanorum Regum, that is, "King of the Kings of the Hispanians" (or "Spaniards")

It could be Rex Hispanorum Regium (King of Kings of the Spains or of the Spaniards") but the word order seems a bit strange esp. for mediaeval Latin. What about Rex Hispanorum Regnum, King of the Realm of the Spaniards? THat's equally viable. Anyway, it's not right and I think it should be.

No, that's not equally viable, that would be wrong. It would need to be Rex Hispanorum Regni. —Nightst a llion (?) 18:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The genitive of reges is regum. Compare with ultima ratio regum. You will have to paint it all over Jerusalem. --Error 19:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Spanish nationalist using it were from Madrid!

The article is a little confuse in its last paragraph. The only time the Arrano Beltza has been waved in the Basque Country by Spanish nationalists (neo-nazis), they came from Madrid in buses.

I can tell, becuse my sister is pretty much fascist pro-Spanish herself, that near no locals go to such provocations. The occasion when my sister went, she was the only one (and of course they were heavily protected by the police).

By the way it's worth to notice that Hispanorum has a geographical meaning (equivalent to modern Iberia). Spain as nation-state didn't exist in the times of Sancho III.

I'm going to edit the confuse part. --Sugaar 04:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First flag

The Auñamendi article I linked has 18th century for the first known Navarrese flag (red with chains). The external link has a "Flag of Navarre according to Libro del conoscimiento de todos los Reynos (XIV century)" also red with chains.

Does anyone know the date of the first know use of the chains as a flag? Error 00:32, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The chains were used only after the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa (1212).

The culmination of the battle took place when Sancho VII of Navarre himself broke into the Caliph's fortified camp, broke up the defensive ring and disbanded al-Nasir's personal bodyguard. (Apparently the defenisve ring was made up with chains or something like that, hence the adoption).

Before the Navarrese escutheon (not flag yet) was the same symbol (golden 8-pointed asterisk on red field) but made up of solid bars, which had some smaller transversal ones.

Apart of the Arrano Beltza, another Navarrese scutheon sometimes mentioned was a crescent with points down over an eight-pointed star.

There was never a Navarrese flag as such, just the scutheon, sometimes placed in the center of banners, but not used like modern flags. So, in a sense, it is surely correct that the first Navarrese flag was that with the chains, but not the first heraldic symbol. --Sugaar 16:30, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have to partly correct myself. Following the external link in the article [1], I found the following:

EVOLUTION OF THE ARMS OF NAVARRE (according to Arnaud Bunel)

A biassed legend said that from the battle of the Navas de Tolosa (1212), the former Navarre's shield was dressed with the chains and the emerald captured by Sancho VII to Miramamolin. As it can to see, the chains are an evolution from the metallic reinforcements of the primitive shield, and have no relation with the mentioned battle.

--Sugaar 16:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]