Talk:Armatoles

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On 10 September 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Armatoloi to Armatoles. The result of the discussion was moved.

Comments

I think this article should be moved to Armatole. We should use the English names for articles (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)) and it is more in line with Klepht (and not Kleftes). What does everyone else think? Latinus 18:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

History of this article

Note to later editors: This article has a somewhat complicated page history. There were originally two separate articles, at Armatoles and at Armatoloi. The first was written mainly by User:Dragases ([1]), the second mainly by User:Deucalionite ([2]), both starting from January 2006. After some rather chaotic merging and cut-and-paste moving in June 2006, the histories of both articles were merged and the whole thing moved to Armatoloi. The current text as of 25 June ([3]) is basically that from the old Armatoles page of User:Dragases. The last version of the original Armatoloi page is here: [4]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, this version is more complete. I had no idea that it was you, User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, that changed it to that grotesque form under "Armatoles". I'm quite new to WP. — Sshadow 13:33, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't me. I just noticed that there were those two competing articles under the two different titles. Neither of them was written by me. The original "Armatoles" one is better as a basis for further work, IMO, because it is sourced, and it doesn't focus on that rather speculative "original research" argumentation about the continuity between Armatoloi and earlier akrites etc. But feel free to merge whatever elements can be verified from the original "Armatoloi" article into the other one As for the title, "Armatoles" is a common anglicised form and would have been okay as such, but it's not a big deal. BTW, I'd appreciate it if you didn't wildly apply terms such as "grotesque" or "vandalims" to my work, unless you have some strong basis for an argument. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I kept the title "Armatoles" when I wrote the article because I encountered it repeatedly in most of the English-language sources on the subject, and figured it'd be more acceptable to the WP community. In hindsight, I should have created the article under the current popular Greek form... Anyway, good work, Fut.Perf.. Dragases 10:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I've never edited anything on Wikipedia before: I have altered the article to reflect the fact that Russia had no involvement as an instigator in the Greek 1821 revolution. Despite its earlier attempts to foment revolution against the Ottomans, at 1821 Russia was ruled by czar Alexander I who, following his experience with the French revolution and Napoleon, was deeply suspicious of all attempts to upset the existing European order. In fact it was not until his death that Russia actively involved itself in Greek affairs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.52.24.125 (talk) 21:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ottoman militia

There's a short paragraph at the end of the article mentioning "Albanian armatoloi" and describes it as a private militia of Christian Albanians. This militia is mentioned as having been granted privileges by the Sultan in 1861, even though the next phrase mentioned that it had already been abolished by Ahmed III in 1721 (the source says that it continued the practice illegally for another 100 years). So what's going on here?

Also, the other source mentioned (George Finlay's History of the Greek Revolution) doesn't mention a separate group of Albanian armatoloi per se, but as a second group of Christians apart from the armatoloi who had the right to bear arms ("The armatoli were not the only Christians in the Ottoman empire who were authorised to bear arms. Several Albanian communities in Greece, though entirely composed of Christians, received this privilege from the sultan."). This paragraph could use some rephrasing, e.g. "armatoloi-like Christian militia". Athenianepirote 10:03, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Athenianepirote: You are correct with this observation; the first sentence gives Finlay (1861) as a reference, but it failed verification. I will rephrase per your suggestion and the second reference. Also, i will remove Krokodeilos Kladas from the "Famous armatoloi" section; he was a Stratioti, not an Armatolos. Demetrios1993 (talk) 07:44, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 10 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 02:35, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Armatoloi → Armatoles – Widely used English name. Armatoloi and Armatolos, the Greek names, give me 288 results in Google Scholar [5], while the English Armatoles and Armatole give me 291 results [6]. As both versions are practically equally common, one would need other arguments to base the election of one version or another. I've just added information on the article about the Aromanian armatoles that existed, and I also get a big amount of papers in Google Scholar when searching Albanian armatoles [7], so it was not a Greek-only thing. Based on this, I believe the English names are more neutral and preferable. Super Ψ Dro 12:51, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nomination. 'Armatoles' seems to be more used. Ahmet Q. (talk) 19:42, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose "Armatoloi" is more common among 21st century sources in Google Books [8] (~2000 results) compared to "Armatoles" [9] (1850 results). Similarly, on Google Scholar, among 21st century English language publications, "Armatoloi" is more common [10] (154 hits) is clearly more common than "Armatoles" [11] (98 hits). Khirurg (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The situation is different when you include the singular-form versions for each. For Google Scholar you can see the links I gave above. "Armatoloi" is more common among 21st century sources in Google Books (~2000 results) not true. I stop getting results at the 14th page [12]. And as you can see here [13], many are not in English. By the way, I only stop getting results for armatoles at the 16th page [14]. Super Ψ Dro 20:10, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The singulars have nothing to do with, they are not proposed as the target of the move request. But let's stop beating about the bush, shall we? The real reason you want the article moved is because the current title is too Greek, isn't it? Khirurg (talk) 23:32, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The singulars help us compare the popularity of the English and Greek forms of this article's topic in academia. There's no reason why we would only use the plural forms. The real reason you want the article moved is because the current title is too Greek, isn't it? Yeah I guess. I said in my original comment that the armatoles were not a Greek-only thing. The real question is why do you appear to be displeased by this. Super Ψ Dro 00:15, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: per common name. Also, the links given by nom are highly problematic as stated above.Alexikoua (talk) 02:09, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How are they "highly problematic"? It is the links of the user above the ones that gave less results than initially stated. Super Ψ Dro 14:22, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support Armatoles appears to be more used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by S.G ReDark (talk • contribs) 02:12, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Google Ngrams indicates "Armatoles" has been used more, except for a period from 1978 to 1995: [15]. "Armatoles" also appears to have been the more common variant from 1800 to 1900: [16]-Ljleppan (talk) 08:16, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support, as per nom. Armatoles is, besides being more used, also the proper English term, whith Armatoloi being Greek.

Alltan (talk) 17:10, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support As one of the few editors who have contributed to this article, I prefer the proposed name because it is English. It is also more widely used than the Greek Armatoloi, but in any case the fact that it is English does suffice for me. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:47, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support well its the same name in any case, derived from the the Greek onw. Completely useless and targeted move request but anyway, we are in the English WP. Othon I (talk) 08:36, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Albanian vs Albanian-Greek

@Βατο: I think that Botsaris, Tzavellas and Androutsos should not be listed as "Albanian". Instead, I would suggest "Albanian or Albanian-Greek". This way they were either Albanians or Albanians with a Greek identification. They were of Albanian origin and language, but how much they identified with an Albanian and a Greek identity is impossible to tell. I mean that was a period of fluid identities in the region, and they were primarily illiterate bandits seeking personal opportunities rather than patriotic ideas and national aspirations. Just calling them "Albanian" does not seem suitable to me, at least in the case of Xhavella and Androutsos. "Albanian or Albanian-Greek" looks better. If I am not mistaken, Xhavella even participated at a revolt in Epirus aiming at joining the area to Greece, and Albanian civilians were massacred meanwhile. Does that look much Albanian? Ktrimi991 (talk) 01:48, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ktrimi991: your proposal looks better for that heading, I changed it. – Βατο (talk) 09:02, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]