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Archive 1Archive 2

Why so many subcategories?

I can understand that "Other charted songs" are songs that charted even though they weren't released as singles. I can understand that "Promotional singles" were released to radio but not for sale. But what makes "Special songs" special? Why do they warrant a separate category? —C.Fred (talk) 19:52, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Hello.Simply.... ok, see other discography, for example Justin Bieber discography. Other chart songs, because some singles not have Clip. Bye, thanks. Connie (A.K) (talk) 20:28, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes what an awkward name for a section and the songs were released as singles, so they are all singles. I do not see the need for changing at all. Justin Bieber discography has all the Journals singles, in the singles section, so I have no idea what you are getting at. Since when does a song require a music video to be a single? That does not make much sense at all. STATic message me! 23:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Edit

Hello, the songs of christmas kisses not are singles, they are in other songs section. She releasing a song for christmas specials, not are singles. Cite: "I'm releasing new music for Christmas! New song every week as a countdown to the holidays starting Nov19. Beyond excited to share them w/ U! The 1st song #LastChristmas out Nov 19. I can't wait for u to hear our spin on it. There will be originals as well! Hope u love the music.". Regards to everyone. Connie (A.K) (talk) 04:38, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

They were released for retail sale in the format of digital download, as singles. Any other denotation of what is or makes a single or is/does not, is WP:OR. The refs in the article support the proof of them being available for retail sale as singles. End of story. User: C.Fred, you reverted her before when she tried to make this same edit, so you may want to comment here. STATic message me! 04:55, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
The changes were reversed before me was because i included a special section:" Special songs" and holiday 100. This other case, see Taylor Swift discography#Other charted songs. why are you making such problem?. Not are singles. Connie (A.K) (talk) 05:13, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
STATic I am waiting for your answer. Connie (A.K) (talk) 05:27, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
No, you were reverted because you were wrong. Not like that is any new crazy occurrence though. They are singles and you have yet to explain how they are not. Also, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. STATic message me! 05:36, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
The singles have videoclip, in this case these were released as special songs. See Taylor Swift discography#Other charted songs , tell me what think about that. Connie (A.K) (talk) 05:44, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Music video/= single and no music video =/= not a single. To think otherwise is just ridiculous, as there is nothing official stating this. As with Justin Bieber discography, all the Journals singles, are obviously singles. But again, I could not give a damn about that article, it has no relevance here. STATic message me! 05:52, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

STATic. It's wrong, All That Matters have video, and others Justin's songs from Journals have videoclip. And that songs before in other section, someone made changes. Journals's song are part of album journals, so that case is diferent. In this case, grande discography, her christmas song are not singles, no one has video. Connie (A.K) (talk) 06:00, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

According to what reliable source must a single have a music video? —C.Fred (talk) 06:02, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
It is a common misconception or that any song with a music video is a single. But to keep pushing it without sourcing is just disruptive. STATic message me! 06:23, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
I think don't exist a source, see, is usually that all oficial singles have a video. For example in Grande: her debut single hava a video, The Way, Baby I, Rigth There have a video, they are oficial singles. In other artists, all artist's official singles have videoclip.
C.Fred, why is different Swift's christmas songs to Grande's christmas songs oo her discography Taylor Swift discography#Other charted songs?. Connie (A.K) (talk) 14:04, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Just because it may be modern custom for singles to have a video does not mean it's a requirement. Basically, if it's released for sales or to radio, it's generally a single (although a radio-only release might be labeled a promotional single). So, without a source, labeling any song without a video as not a single is original research by you and not allowed. —C.Fred (talk) 14:09, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
And the "Other charted songs" at the Taylor Swift discography are songs that were made available for radio play but were not offered as separate sales items (i.e., not released as singles). So, it sounds like we're back to what StaticVapor said earlier in this discussion: if the Christmas songs were released for sale as separate items, they're singles.
BTW, how do I know what the determination is for Swift? It's documented at Talk:Taylor Swift discography#Can we get a consensus please? —C.Fred (talk) 14:19, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
C.Fred,Swift's Song Superman was released single on i tunes but its in other charted songs. Usually all official singles have a video. So, all discographys have this problem, why the rules here and not and others? This the only article that don't edit. Connie (A.K) (talk) 14:26, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Again, see WP:OTHERSTUFF. Although it might be useful to get a project-wide definition of a single, a lot of it will come down to facts and circumstances for each individual artist. That's why the discussion at Swift's talk page took place. —C.Fred (talk) 17:41, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
I think made a question, and superman song is released a single but other charted songs. Digital download not always indicates an official single, is usually that they have video, they are official singles to the artist STATic, C.Fred. Connie (A.K) (talk) 14:50, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Digital download is what has made this all fuzzy. It used to be easy to decide if a song was released as a single: if the record label pressed vinyl singles, gave it a catalog number, and sent it to music stores to sell, it was a single. Now we have issues like this that are confusing: is it a series of singles, or is it some kind of serial release of the EP? Probably the best indicator would be how Billboard described it at the time of release; reviews and the label's descriptions would be useful also. —C.Fred (talk) 17:41, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
The Digital Spy sources in the Christmas Kisses article refer to the songs as releases. If a label releases something separately from an album or EP, that's definitionally a single. Also, Allmusic lists the four songs as singles.[1] —C.Fred (talk) 17:56, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Superman song Taylor is in 'other charted songs'. The format about pop artists discography usually the official singles have videos and on the section as lead artist only are singles with video because they are the official singles. What you think about Taylor discography?. All artist discography have the format similar with Swift discography. Connie (A.K) (talk) 19:39, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Ok, stop bringing up other articles, we both looked at it already, and for the last time it does not madder here. Again, your comment is just factually incorrect, a music video has nothing to do with being a single. STATic message me! 19:42, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Source about your comment?. Official singles have video. the format on the tables are singles with video because they are the officials. Your position is wrong, what is an example of swift to try to understand the idea. I do not speak English, so I can not explain well, so I quote examples. Swift's superman song is single but is not official because it has no video, for this the song is on other charted songs. that's the format for tables... like the format "Song <br />feat. Artist" the song name is up and the collaboration artist is down. example, and others. Connie (A.K) (talk) 20:29, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
A video does not a single make; otherwise, the Beatles would have released only a handful of singles. Nor is a catalog number a good indicator anymore: Christmas Kisses is a digital-only release and does not have a catalog number, although we accept that it was released as an EP. The indicator is whether it was released separately for sale. It looks like the four songs on Christmas Kisses were released as singles, so that should be listed as such unless compelling evidence is presented that they were not released. —C.Fred (talk) 23:01, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
C.Fred, released singles or not, they not are official singles. The format of the tables of artists discography: "as lead artist" are singles with music video, and the others are in other section, because not are official singles. Is like the format: 'song featuring. artist name.' The name song is up and the "feauturing" is small down of the name song. Catch the idea?. Example: Swift's superman song are released single but not have music video, this should in other section, this format is applied to all artist discographies. Also, the songs are released to promote the Grande's Ep every tuesdays. Connie (A.K) (talk) 17:57, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
According to what source were they not released, then? Allmusic says they were released as singles. What source do you have to override that? —C.Fred (talk) 19:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

C.Fred, I mean the format of the tables, the singles with video are the officials. So, Why swift's superman song is in other section?, or whatever, all discographies are similar to Swift discography, the format. Connie (A.K) (talk) 02:47, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Since it's listed in the separate section, the inference I draw is that it was not officially released.
Quoting Wikipedia:WikiProject Discographies/style: "The optional listing of notable works not officially released, such as songs not released as singles but which nevertheless achieved significant chart positions, should be in a clearly separate section. That is, such songs should be in a section like 'Other charted songs' and not under 'Singles'." —C.Fred (talk) 03:06, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
So, why Swift's superman song are in other charted if its was released as a single?. All discographies have the format that i tell you. Connie (A.K) (talk) 03:11, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't know, but I don't feel like poking around at the Taylor Swift article to figure that out. And the page I quoted is the style guideline for discographies: in other words, it's the recommended format! —C.Fred (talk) 03:15, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
the format that said is the format that all have discographies, for this, Swift's superman song is in other section and not in 'as lead artist'. why Skewed?. Connie (A.K) (talk) 17:37, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Certifications

Look at the links that I put at the singles, They are a real links So stop deleting them all the time Shooky123 (talk) 19:15, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

@Shooky123: They are real links, but what evidence is there that this website is a reliable source? Headlineplanet looks to be a website run by a single person; I don't see where it ranks as reliable. Further, the information is not present at the RIAA website, and sourcing the information directly from RIAA is far more reliable than another website's reports of what RIAA has awarded. —C.Fred (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

"Yours Truly" album sales

References

  1. ^ https://twitter.com/chartnews/status/509844117627883520
I don't see any evidence that @chartnews is anything but an individual's Twitter account, so it's not a reliable source, and (s)he didn't cite his/her source. —C.Fred (talk) 22:53, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Christmas kisses

why cant the uk, nl and ukr charts be added to the other charts just as in the tables above. instead of this construction right now88.159.238.200 (talk) 05:12, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

For that matter, why are those songs segregated as "Other charted songs"? —C.Fred (talk) 14:14, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Thi's EP not LP. Check the other artists discographiesConnie (A.K) (talk) 18:44, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

If there are no objections, I will transfer the songs of Christmas kisses ro "other single" Shooky123 (talk) 14:10, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

"Brand New You" single

U990467 has repeatedly removed "Brand New You" from Grande's list of singles, with no claim other than that "Not all of songs released on iTunes can be listed as single." Here, they say an additional source is needed to verify it as a single. I can see the point that not every song released to iTunes is necessarily a single - promotional singles, for example, are often listed as singles on iTunes. But in such cases, there are reliable sources that label these songs as promotional releases. (See this article regarding Katy Perry's "Walking on Air", for instance.)

To remove the song from the list of singles with only the claim that not every iTunes "single" is a proper single, with no source supporting it as a promotional single, is an original research assumption. I would like other editors' input. –Chase (talk / contribs) 18:16, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

IMO, you've kind of got it backwards. There should be proof that BNY IS in fact a single, not proof that it is a promotional single. Considering the song has received no promotion, has not been sent for radio adds, and honestly hasn't really been mentioned, I would not classify it as a single. A release solely on iTunes does not warrant it a single, and IMO it should be listed as a promotional single unless further information is given. But that's just my opinion. -- Sethjohnson95 13:46, 22 January 2015.
WP:BURDEN says that "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution." When I added the song to the list, I demonstrated verifiability with a source that explicitly listed the song as a single. By definition, a single is a song that is released for individual purchase. In the age of a-la-carte purchasing, that makes the definition a little murkier, but again, it's a one-track album that is labelled as a "single". Since I have included the information with reliable sourcing, the decision to exclude it should be proved with sources showing that it is not a single. To completely exclude the song from Grande's list of releases over a group of editors' personal opinions is irresponsible and a disservice to readers. –Chase (talk / contribs) 21:07, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Additionally, not every single goes for radio adds, particularly for non-mainstream offerings such as this Broadway recording, nor does every single receive a promotional campaign. –Chase (talk / contribs) 21:10, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

RIAA Album Certification

Hi, I would just like to ask how exactly does the RIAA certify albums? From what I've seen of the 'My Everything' in-line comments, apparently streaming counts are the reason why the album is certified platinum, even though it only has 300,000 sales. However, when I looked up how RIAA certifies albums (called 'Album Award' by RIAA) nowhere does it mention streaming is counted towards the certification? Link: Album Award - RIAA. Contrary, it clearly states that streaming is counted towards digital singles. Link: Digital Single Award - RIAA

Additional article mentioning why albums should also count streaming: Why The Definition Of A Platinum Album Needs To Change In 2015 - Forbes
Certification Criteria by RIAA (see 'Digital Single' and 'Full-Length Album'): Certification Criteria - RIAA
History Of The Awards by RIAA (see last two paragraphs, which only mentions singles?): History Of The Awards - RIAA

I know this contradicts the album sales for 'My Everything' album referenced in the Billboard article, therefore if someone would be able to clarify this that would be great, thanks!

-- AYTK (talk) 18:05, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Moonlight

Shall we add Moonlight to the "Studio Albums" section? --Alaan681 (talk) 21:10, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

13 (musical) cast album

Grande also appears on the cast album of the musical 13 (musical) as Charlotte. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:22, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Singles

So, if featured singles are added to singles, shouldn't promotional singles as well? They're still in the "singles" section too. -- Joseph Prasad (talk) 19:14, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Focus

How should we classify "Focus" now it isn't the lead single? While it is on the Japanese Edition, it isn't on any other edition, putting it as a Dangerous Woman single is both incorrect and confusing as it makes it appear as though it is still the lead single. I think we should put it as a non-album single. 90.192.207.49 (talk) 20:44, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

It's a single from this album. See this: http://www.directlyrics.com/world-premiere-ariana-grande-dangerous-woman-full-audio-review-news.html U990467 (talk) 16:42, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
@U990467: That source is unreliable and fails to take into account "Focus" being absent from the track list. "Focus" is officially no longer considered a single from the album, if it was, then being the lead single, it would be on the Standard edition, which it isn't, and it won't be on the Deluxe edition as shown by the fact it is on the Japanese edition. It is being listed as a non-album single, it has been cut from all but the Japanese edition of the album, and therefore is no longer part of the album. Listing it as a single from the album is incorrect and confusing. There is no discussion to be had here, the facts speak for themselves. 90.192.207.49 (talk) 17:26, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
I have put my explanation on the album page. Go and see it. U990467 (talk) 18:05, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
You provided no explanation, you made the edit with no summary. "Focus" is no longer a single from the album, which is shown by multiple sources, unless you can provide a source containing official confirmation that it is still a single from the album, you have no argument. Why are you so insistent on continuing to list it as a single from the album, when it clearly isn't anymore, it has been cut from all but the Japanese edition. No source supports it still being a single from the album, whereas numerous sources support and confirm it not being one, plus it has been decided by other editors not to list it as a single in the infobox on the album page. It can't still be a single as if it was, it would still be the lead single which it clearly isn't as shown by it not being included on the Standard edition or even the Deluxe edition. 90.192.207.49 (talk) 18:25, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
It's not the lead but the pre-order single on the album. I have shown the source. U990467 (talk) 18:36, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
@U990467: It can't no longer be the lead but still a single from the album as the lead single of an album can only be changed if the original lead single is cut, which it has been apart from the Japanese edition. "Pre-order singles" aren't a thing, songs released with pre-orders are promotional singles, but "Focus" is not a promotional single as it is available for purchase, whereas promotional singles are sent to radio stations and magazines and/or released to those who pre-order the album, they aren't made available for purchase. It isn't possible for a single to be demoted to a promotional single as you are claiming happened to "Focus". I don't see why you are so desperate for it to be listed as a single from Dangerous Woman even though there is confirmation it isn't any more. 90.192.207.49 (talk) 19:34, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
"Focus" is still on the Japanese edition of the album. It should be included in the Dangerous Woman era. We didn't say "Focus" is the lead single from the album so what's your problem? You can take a look at another user's suggestion on the talk page of Dangerous Woman. U990467 (talk) 09:29, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
@U990467: We can't have it both ways, if it is still a single, it is still the lead single as it is the first, that's what lead single means. If "Focus" was still the lead single, it would be on the Standard edition of the album, which it isn't. This reliable source[2] explicitly states that "Focus" is no longer the lead single and has been replaced by "Dangerous Woman" and this reliable source[3] explicitly states that "Dangerous Woman" is the first single (which is another way of saying lead single). These sources are run by professional journalists who have to have reliable sources for what they report as being fact, they'll have had official confirmation of this. "Focus" is officially not a single from the album. 90.192.207.49 (talk) 14:21, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
@U990467: How about a compromise? We put "Non-album single" but next to it we put a note explaining that it was included on the Japanese edition of Dangerous Woman. That way everyone is happy. 90.192.207.49 (talk) 14:54, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Umm... but "non-album-single" means the song isn't included in any album. "Focus" is not like "Put Your Hearts Up" and "Brand New You" at all. I think that we don't list "Focus" as the lead single from the album is the best compromise.U990467 (talk) 15:06, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
OK, leave it as Dangerous Woman but put a note next to "Focus" explaining the situation. 90.192.207.49 (talk) 16:53, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 Done 90.192.207.49 (talk) 17:35, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

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Sales

Why is it that My Everything has just 692,000 sales when it is certified 2x Platinum? Nahnah4 (talk | contribs | guestbook) 08:41, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Jason's Song

Jason's Song should be listed as a single because:

It received enough notability. There is no doubt that we should list the song as a single according to WP:Notability (music)#Recordings. U990467 (talk) 15:44, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Promotional single. Not single.Kellymoat (talk) 15:48, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
These is no source called it a promotional single but a single. You have failed WP:No original research. --U990467 (talk) 15:57, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
I will ping other users for discussion: @HĐ:, @Ss112: and @FanofMusic:. --U990467 (talk) 15:57, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Music videos

Lyric videos aren't music videos, they are videos that display the lyrics on screen which may or may not feature the artist themselves, whereas music videos are videos that go along with a song that feature the artist and sometimes a storyline. A Wikipedia article can't be used as evidence as it is neither a policy nor a guideline. Fan4Life (talk) 13:58, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Fan4Life is wrong that music videos must feature the artist. Some famous music videos do not feature the artist; they may feature dancers or some other visual, such as Sia's music videos. The Wikipedia article on music video includes a section on lyric videos, so some editors here consider them to be music videos. Fan4Life's argument is not supported by facts. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:10, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
I'll just leave this and this here (Note both videos were uploaded by the actual artists). –Davey2010Talk 17:48, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
@Ssilvers: Lyric videos are not music videos, as show by the fact they have their own classification/name. Fan4Life (talk) 19:34, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
I see. You don't like it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:43, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
@Ssilvers: Stop the WP:OWNBEHAVIOR. Fan4Life (talk) 13:46, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Jason' Song (Gave It Away)

(non-admin closure) This closure endorses the findings that the track in question should be described as a single, based on the fact that it is described as such by our sources. This aligns with the third opinion offered here, and reflects the current status of the article.

With respect to the optional, non-binding guidance essay Wikipedia:Promotional singles, even the editors arguing for this track's description as a "promotional single" find that it meets one of the four criteria for being considered a "single". This essay's flaws include privileging certain countries and formats over others, and a detailed rebuttal can be found on its talk page. Essays are subject to the normal bold, revert, discuss cycle, especially when their primary contributor has been inactive for some years. If the guidance essay is perceived to be mistaken or too imprecise, interested editors are encouraged to edit it to assist in the resolution of future disagreements of this type. It should be reiterated though that we follow sources, and even if our sources use terms imprecisely or interchangeably which they ought not (such as "single" versus "promotional single"), we are still beholden to follow their text. To question or attempt to refute them without the support of other reliable sources is classified as original research.

Snuge purveyor (talk) 22:52, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I think that "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is a promotional single due to the fact that it was not released to radio. DatBoy101 (talk) 15:06, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Jason's Song should be listed as a single because:

It was released as a single, and the sources call it a single, so it is a single. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:06, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

It surprises me that we have to go back to this subject now that an IP is rejecting this consensus. Please remember to refer the IP to this consensus when reverting their actions. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 00:31, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

On iTunes, there is no distinction between a single and promotional single, all single means on iTunes is a release consisting of 1 or 2 tracks, which can be a single, a promotional single, or a single and a promotional single (if it's 2 tracks). Also, Billboard have called "Everyday" the fourth single[4], and so has Ariana herself[5]. As well as this, WP:SINGLE? dictates that for a song to be classed as a single, it has to have been sent to radio, if not, it's a promotional single, and "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" was not sent to radio, it also dictates that a song being released for purchase doesn't make it a single. Billboard calling "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" a single is nothing more than misuse of the word single, which is common, even for reputable/influential media. "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is not a single as per all sources, as well as WP:SINGLE?, it is just a promotional single. Fan4Life (talk) 18:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Per WP:Promotional singles rule No. 4, digital release that is similar to the release of previous singles makes "Jason's Song" a single. It also gained the promotion through the radio platform such as iHeartRadio: Listen Free to Ariana Grande - Jason's Song (Gave It Away) Radio | iHeartRadio --U990467 (talk) 14:34, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
As per WP:SINGLE?, being played on the radio doesn't mean it's a single, only if it's serviced to radio with an official date, which "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" wasn't. Also, how can you just ignore the same publication you cited as well as Ariana herself? Plus, the only reason it was released separately as a promotional single is the fact that it was only on the Target edition of the album, also the album had already been released, so it couldn't be released any other way. Fan4Life (talk) 21:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

RfC

There is dispute over whether "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" was a single or a promotional single. It wasn't sent to radio with an official date, influential/reputable media have called "Everyday" the fourth single (although the same publication had previously called "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" a single), and Ariana Grande herself has called "Everyday" the fourth single. Fan4Life (talk) 22:07, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Your point of view that negating the single release of "Jason's Song" is quite weak and has already failed WP:NOR. The song has the digital release that is similar to the release of previous singles.[6] It has also been promoted and listed as a single in several publications like Billboard or iHeartRadio.[7] These sources has already met at least two guidelines per WP:SINGLE?. "Everyday" is the fourth single from the standard edition of Dangerous Woman. It didn't make "Jason's Song", another single from the Target exclusive edition of the album, become a promotional single, either. --U990467 (talk) 03:55, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
Actually, looking more closely at the page history and the previous discussion it looks like at least four users appear to believe this is a single with just one other user holding out, so maybe an RfC wouldn't be helpful in this situation --U990467 (talk) 03:56, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
It doesn't matter how many users think it's a single, it is a fact that it isn't. You are saying that Wikipedia guidelines, reputable/influential media (including the publication you yourself cited), and Ariana Grande herself are wrong, just because you disagree. Fan4Life (talk) 18:35, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
@U990467: This still needs to be discussed, you can't just ignore it. Fan4Life (talk) 12:44, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

@Fan4Life:, please note that WP:RfC requires that the request for comment be neutrally worded. Your wording is certainly not neutrally worded, and I am having a difficult time seeing your calling out of U990467 in the request as being anything other than bad faith editing. Please reword the request in a neutral way; if you are too busy to do so, I will be happy to do it for you. All the best, 青い(Aoi) (talk) 19:42, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

I've reworded it. Fan4Life (talk) 22:07, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
This is about your billionth RfC and edit war regarding the Ariana Grande-related articles, Fan4Life. Your conduct is an abuse of Wikipedia's processes, and you should recuse yourself from the Ariana Grande-related articles. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:58, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
No it's not. The only thing that violated Wikipedia policy was the edit war, which was unintentional. It is completely within policy to use dispute resolution channels in order to resolve a dispute. What is an abuse of Wikipedia processes is the fact that you have made major changes to both Ariana Grande and Dangerous Woman Tour without discussing it first, along with how you are trying to tell me where I can and can't edit. Fan4Life (talk) 20:55, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
I saw this come up on 3rd Op, so I'll offer my opinion. Going only by Wikipedia's definition of a promotional single (which clearly states that such items are *never* intended for sale), combined with the fact that the song may be purchased today on iTunes for $1.29, it would not seem to meet Wikipedia's own definition of a promotional recording. If it started life as a non-purchasable promotional single, it certainly appears to have *become* a single. Billboard describes it as a single, and it's hard to think of many more authoritative sources on such matters. I suggest that it is a single, albeit one perhaps with an unusual release strategy. All the best Cpaaoi (talk) 20:28, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
@Cpaaoi: As per WP:SINGLE?, being released for purchase does not make it a single. Also, Billboard later called "Everyday" the fourth single, and so did Ariana herself, which wouldn't be the case if "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" were a single. Fan4Life (talk) 19:32, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
@Fan4Life: "Everyday" is the fourth single from the standard edition of Dangerous Woman. It didn't make "Jason's Song", another single from the Target deluxe edition of the album, become a promotional single.[8] That's all. --U990467 (talk) 07:04, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
A recording released as a single track for purchase sounds a lot like a good starting place for defining a "single". Cpaaoi (talk) 12:41, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
@U990467: You can't have singles just for a particular edition, that isn't how singles work. @Cpaaoi: Why are both you and User:U990467 ignoring all evidence as well as Wikipedia guidelines? As per WP:SINGLE?, none of the points you have made make it a single, being performed doesn't make it a single, being released for purchase doesn't make it a single. Here are the facts: it wasn't released to radio, it was never announced or promoted as a single, Billboard called "Everyday" the fourth single, Ariana Grande herself called "Everyday" the fourth single. Fan4Life (talk) 13:43, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

@Fan4Life: Please read carefully to what Billboard said in the first paragraph: "After revealing her sick rap skills on The Tonight Show last week, Ariana Grande made a return to the late night talk show Mon. (Sept. 19) to perform her latest single "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" from the deluxe album Dangerous Woman." Fan4Life, your comments have obviously failed WP:No original research and may pose an abuse of Wikipedia's processes. --U990467 (talk) 15:43, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Just stop. Your calling my sources Original Research now. Singles can't just be for specific editions as the editions aren't separate albums, singles promote the album/project as a whole. What you still can't answer for is the fact that it wasn't sent to radio. Also, that sentence is clearly misusing the word single, if they meant single in the true meaning on the word, they would specify a place in the single cycle. I can't believe you are trying to claim that the same publication you have cited is wrong (see my citation of Billboard ealier), as well as Ariana Grande herself (see my citation of a Tweet by Ariana Grande earlier) and Wikipedia guidelines (see WP:SINGLE?). Fan4Life (talk) 15:52, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
I am not trying to be an authority on the definition of single, Fan4Life. I have noted a) that it is for sale, while Wikipedia defines a promotional single as being *never* intended for sale, and b) the fact that Billboard has called it a single (along with the fact that one of their principal long-term occupations is the categorization and discussion of musical recordings). As an aside, I don't consider artists to be authorities on their own work. (Just look, for example, at all the nonsense that Radiohead have said in interviews about their own work over the years!) All the best! Cpaaoi (talk) 16:51, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
@Cpaaoi: Wikipedia guidelines specifically say that being released for purchase does not make it a single. You are arguing against guidelines using articles. How are artists not an authority on their own work? It is their work, so they are more of an authority than anyone else. Also, you say Billboard called it a single, but that word is frequently misused, they frequently refer to promotional singles as singles, and on top of that, they later called "Everyday" the fourth single, which wouldn't be the case if "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" were a single. As well as this, both "Be Alright" and "Let Me Love You" were released for purchase, and no one is trying to claim they are singles. All promotional singles are released for purchase, a promotional single is a song that is released for purchase or given away with the album pre-order and isn't sent to radio. Fan4Life (talk) 17:22, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
1) I firmly disagree that artists are the principal authority on their own work. David Bowie described Tin Machine as a "glorious disaster"; when, of course, it was just a disaster. 2) You will need to explain why, if Billboard often refers to promotional singles as singles (as you point out), then why cannot Wikipedia do likewise? 3) It is true that non-single recordings may be purchased individually. But they, too, are not promotional singles. Cpaaoi (talk) 18:57, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
@Cpaaoi: 1) An artist's description of their work is not the same as them officially announcing a single. 2) Billboard aren't an encyclopedia, they are just a chart company and magazine, so accuracy isn't as important. 3) What are you even trying to say? A promotional single is a song that is released for purchase separate from the album or given away with the album pre-order that isn't sent to radio, a description that matches "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)". All evidence and guidelines prove that it is not a single. Fan4Life (talk) 18:36, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
I agree that, as you say, "an artist's description of their work is not the same as them officially announcing a single". But that is not what you said. You said artists "are more of an authority than anyone else" in order to justify your point. And I disagree with that statement, and have given some examples why. No-one has said that Billboard is an encyclopedia. But they are commentators on the music business, and they have described the song as a single. What source(s) are you getting your definition of 'promotional single' from? Cpaaoi (talk) 19:35, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
I wasn't directly quoting any particular source, I was just summarising the general definition of a promotional single, partly based on WP:SINGLE? and Promotional recording#Promo single. How come the Billboard article that User:U990467 cited is a reliable source to you, but the Billboard article I cited isn't? This dispute is a Billboard article + Ariana Grande herself + WP:SINGLE? vs. an earlier Billboard article misusing the word single. Fan4Life (talk) 14:03, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

@Fan4Life: How can Billboard "misuse" the word? Obviously, you have failed Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:No original research. Again, "Everyday" is the fourth single from the standard edition of Dangerous Woman. It didn't make "Jason's Song", another single from the Target deluxe edition of the album, become a promotional single. I DIDN'T deny any Billboard article you and I cited. So please watch your behavior. --U990467 (talk) 14:47, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Also, according to WP:SINGLE?, radio release is not the only condition that make a song a single:
  • Promoted as a single and listed as a single in the publication.
    • See the Billboard article and the iHeartRadio page I provided earlier.
  • Digital release that is similar to the release of previous singles.
    • See all four singles from Christmas Kisses and "Brand New You" from 13 – The Musical.
So the true condition is: two Billboard articles + WP:SINGLE? + iTunes single release + singer herself vs. a Wikipedia user who ignored all the source and failed WP:NPOV + WP:NOR. That's all. Thank you. --U990467 (talk) 14:55, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
As User:DatBoy101 said below, out of the four standards for a single set out in WP:SINGLE?, "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" meets just one. Billboard called "Everyday" the fourth single, making the article you provided irrelevant. Fan4Life (talk) 15:03, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm just gonna leave this here as a general comment: Fan4Life, stop mislabeling WP:SINGLE? as a guideline when the page itself states it is an essay. It is true that not every digital release is a single release, but sometimes singles (at least in the beginning) are only released for streaming/download and not to radio. A radio release isn't the only way something can be a single. Sometimes a release could also start out as a promo release and then become an official single later on. Also, what fansites say is irrelevant as they're full of user-generated content that just about any fan can potentially edit without concern for accuracy. 00:38, 29 September 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SNUGGUMS (talk • contribs)

Third Opinion

A Third Opinion request was made in connection with this dispute. It has been removed (i.e. declined) because no moderated content dispute resolution venue, including 3O, will accept a request while a request is pending at some other dispute resolution venue or process, such as RFC. RFC's generally run for 30 days unless closed or withdrawn sooner. If the RFC does not resolve the matter, then other DR processes or venues may then be used. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:08, 11 September 2017 (UTC) (Not watching this page)

Note to 3O volunteers: Just to avoid any ambiguity, the RFC previously filed on this dispute has now been withdrawn by the RFC filing editor and the case has been relisted at 3O. Any volunteer who cares to do so may now give a 3O on this dispute. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:21, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

According to the single standards on Wikipedia there are four standards that can make a Song a single, out of those four standards Jason's Song (Gave I Away) meets one (digital release that is similar to previous single releases.) Even on the Ariana Grande FANDOM page about Jason's Song (Gave It Away) It is listed as a promotional single and everyone agrees. http://arianagrande.wikia.com/wiki/Jason%27s_Song_(Gave_It_Away) DatBoy101 (talk) 16:24, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" - Not a Single

The last discussion was closed despite the fact that all sources go against the claim that "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is a single. The only source supporting it was Billboard article open to interpretation, however Billboard later referred to "Everyday" as the fourth single which wouldn't be the case if "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" were a single, rendering the previous article null and void. It is a fact that it isn't a single. If "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is a single, then "Be Alright" and "Let Me Love You" are singles too, which of course they aren't. There is no debate to be had here, it is literally a fact that "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is categorically not a single. Fan4Life (talk) 19:12, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Wow, they closed my discussion. Then let’s start it again. Jason’s Song (Gave It Away) is not a single because:
1. Meeting one criteria of being a single does not make it a single. There are many songs that have a digi5al release but are not singles. For example: Lily Allen’s “Nan, You’re a Window Shopper” has a digital single release but is not listed as a single, so you should fix the Wikipedia page for Lily Allen’s discography too.
2. Just because it was performed live once doesn’t mean it was promoted as a single. For example: Lady Gaga has performed many non-singles live on television shows such as her performing “Monster” on the Oprah show.
3. Ariana Grande herself and Billboard have said that “Everyday” is the fourth single Off “Dangerous Woman”.[9]
4. Even on the FANDOM Wiki it says “Jason’s Song (Gave It Away)” was a Promotional Single.[10]
5. A user argued that it was played on the radio so it has to be a single but that’s not wikipedia’s guidelines say.[11]
And there’s you go. Five reasons backed up with evidence why “Jason’s Song (Gave It Away)” is not a single. DatBoy101 (talk) 21:26, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
This is irrelevant to the matter but I noticed it says that Focus peaked at #10 in the United Kingdom, but it peaked at #6. Could someone who has access to changing that please change it. Alex5675 (talk) 18:09, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Actually, I noticed that many of the chart positions for “Focus” are inaccurate on the table. For example, it says it peaked at #8 in Italy when it peaked at #5. It says it peaked at #19 in Japan when it peaked at #9. Could someone with access to edits of this page please edit the peaks on the table. Alex5675 (talk) 18:12, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
User:Alex5675 next time could you add a new discussion instead of putting something irrevelant on a discussion DatBoy101 (talk) 03:15, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Another thing that might prove “Jason’s Song (Gave It Away)” is that many sources talk about it as a song not a single.[12] (The description) [13] DatBoy101 (talk) 03:21, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Exactly. Literally nothing backs up the claim that "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is a single. Every single piece of evidence proves that it is not a single. Fan4Life (talk) 22:27, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
I’m so tired of people putting “Jason’s Song (Gave It Away)” as a single. It is not a single because:
1. Meeting one criteria of being a single does not make it a single. There are many songs that have a digital release but are not singles. For example: Lily Allen’s “Nan, You’re a Window Shopper” has a digital single release but is not listed as a single, so you should fix the Wikipedia page for Lily Allen’s discography too.
2. Just because it was performed live once doesn’t mean it was promoted as a single. For example: Lady Gaga has performed many non-singles live on television shows such as her performing “Monster” on the Oprah show.
3. Ariana Grande herself and Billboard have said that “Everyday” is the fourth single Off “Dangerous Woman”.[14]
4. Even on the FANDOM Wiki it says “Jason’s Song (Gave It Away)” was a Promotional Single.[15]
5. A user argued that it was played on the radio so it has to be a single but that’s not wikipedia’s guidelines say.[16]
6. Genius doesn’t call it a single but rather “it was eventually released on iTunes.”[17]
7. Jason Robert Brown doesn’t call it a single but rather a song he collaborated with Ariana Grande on.[18]
DatBoy101 (talk) 00:21, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Well the consensus of this discussion is that it isn't a single, so I am going to change it. Fan4Life (talk) 15:47, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
This matter has now been passed to the edit-warring noticeboard. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Fan4Life reported by User:Cpaaoi (Result: ) Cpaaoi (talk) 13:12, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
@U990467: You have been directed to bring the issue to the talk page, this issue is not resolved. The evidence above shows beyond any questionability that "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is categorically not a single, this is a fact. Disagreeing is saying that the Wikipedia definition of promotional single is wrong, Wikipedia's requirements to be classed as a single are wrong, Billboard are wrong, and Ariana Grande herself is wrong. 22:44, 12 January 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fan4Life (talk • contribs) 22:44, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
The discussion is described as "unresolved", but is in fact stone-cold dead. Grande herself is not a reliable source. Genius.com is not a reliable source. Jason Robert Brown is not a reliable source. arianagrande.wikia.com is not a reliable source. You may be as correct as correct can be. But Wikipedia guidelines clearly state that Wikipedia is not concerned with what is true, but what is verifiable, which are two very different things. WP:VERIFY Without better sources, this discussion will continue to be lifeless. And please also read the guidelines on WP:BLUDGEON. Cpaaoi (talk) 10:11, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
Ariana Grande is most definitely a reliable source, it's her work. Billboard is a reliable source. There is literally no source that backs up it being a single, other than a Billboard article that is open to interpretation, which is debunked by a later Billboard article calling "Everyday" the fourth single. I can't provide "better sources", there is no such thing as better sources than the artist themselves, a reliable media outlet and Wikipedia's own definitions and guidelines. Let's not forget that the evidence provided for it being a single is just the "- Single" on iTunes and a vague Billboard article that is disproven by the later Billboard article that I provided. Fan4Life (talk) 22:38, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
Misrepresentation. The later Billboard article was directly conveying a quotation from Grande's Twitter feed, which veers close to the Wikipedia guideline: "When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised" WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Since we don't need to exercise extreme caution with a statement by Billboard themselves in another article, that would appear to be the end of the matter. If you can't find any "better sources", as you now admit, do you not think that your time might be more well-spent writing and publishing a book about Grande's work yourself? And then we can cite that here, instead of going around in circles. I have no doubt that you will not be convinced and will continue to repeat the points already made and dismantled, so I'll remove myself until there is a substantial change in the direction of this 'debate'. But I will check the page from time, just to time to make sure that it sticks with the sources. Good luck. Cpaaoi (talk) 08:51, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
There is literally no evidence to back up your claims that it is a single. It is not me who needs to be convinced, it is yourself and other editors who think it is a single despite their being no sources or evidence to back that up. I just cannot fathom why some editors are determined to ignore all sources and evidence. What you said to try and discredit the Billboard article I provided is cherry-picking, you are deciding when a source is reliable and when it's not based on your own opinion. My discrediting of the other Billboard article is based on how open it is to interpretation and the fact it came before the one I provided. Fan4Life (talk) 23:02, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Number seven and number 13

"Love Me Harder" and "One Last Time" respectively peaked at seventh and 13th positions on the hot 100. which is the clearest to say? "number seven and number 13", "number seven and number thirteen", or "number 7 and number 13"? Ssjhowarthisawesome (talk) 02:48, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

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page protected

I have fully protected the page for 48 hours due to an edit war between an IP editor and an autoconfirmed editor. Please discuss the issue here on the talk page and make whatever edits are necessary after the page protection expires. –Darkwind (talk) 07:46, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

The tabulation is broken. Can you fix it? --U990467 (talk) 15:33, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

The Way Silver in the UK

The Way was certified silver in the United Kingdom yesterday, can someone add that to the table? Alex5675 (talk) 18:46, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Done. Fan4Life (talk) 23:15, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

i don't know if someone removed it but it's not there anymore, i only see RIAA and ARIA, not BPI. it's on the article for the song but not the main article for her discography Alex5675 (talk) 15:09, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Single and Promotional Single

For some reason, "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is listed as both a single and a promotional single, however they are mutually exclusive, a song can't be both. There is literally no evidence supporting the claim that it is a single other than a vague/implicit Billboard article that is contradicted by a later article as well as all other available evidence and Wikipedia guidelines, so it should be removed from the singles table. Fan4Life (talk) 18:28, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

I am not taking a stance on this issue one way or another, but I note the following for context:
    • Several days before this RfC was opened, another user deleted the material from the "single" part of the bill, which pretty much rendered this current RfC moot.
    • There was a very lengthy discussion a few months ago on this exact same topic, which included both an RfC (which was initiated and withdrawn from the same user who is requesting this current RfC) AND a WP:30. The discussion was closed by an uninvolved user who verified that the consensus was that this song was a single. The user who opened the current RfC refuses to accept this previous consensus, and keeps relitigating this same issue over and over again. 青い(Aoi) (talk) 00:49, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
I am continuing to raise the issue as I am not going to allow consensus to override fact. Fan4Life (talk) 15:50, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
They're not quite as mutually exclusive as you're implying here: a song can initially be released as a promotional single and then get a full-fledged single release, just saying. When the official single release for something does occur, though, that track is no longer a promo. They can therefore theoretically be both but only at different times. Snuggums (talk / edits) 02:34, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
But the point is that it was never released as a single, and I have provided multiple sources proving this, but the consensus in the previous discussion was that it was a single, despite the fact that there is literally no evidence to support that. Fan4Life (talk) 17:52, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

RfC

Previous consensus is that "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is a single, based on a Billboard article referring to it as "the lastest single" and it having "- Single" on iTunes. The argument against this and for it being a promotional single is that a later Billboard article, other media sources and Ariana Grande herself all refer to "Everyday" as the fourth single, along with "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" not meeting the criteria for a single set out in Wikipedia guidelines. Should "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" be listed as a promotional single? Fan4Life (talk) 17:14, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

@DannyMusicEditor: See WP:SINGLE? for the guidelines. Fan4Life (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
@DannyMusicEditor: I would appreciate it if you could respond to this RfC by stating your position. No one has responded and I don't want this discussion to end due to a lack of contribution, this dispute is still ongoing, consensus is needed to move forward. Fan4Life (talk) 23:05, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment WP:SINGLE? is an essay, not a guideline, so please stop mischaracterizing it as such. Anyway, the difference between official and promo singles is that promo singles are offered for free (sometimes as part of album preorders) while official ones are put up for solo paid purchase and in some cases a mainstream radio release. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:11, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
@SNUGGUMS: Promotional singles are usually released for purchase. The distinction is that singles are sent to radio. Even if WP:SINGLE? isn't a guideline, there is still basically no source for "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" being a single other than a vague Billboard article that is contradicted by a later Billboard article, and it having "– Single" on iTunes. There is no real evidence. I don't even understand how this was ever a dispute when Billboard, other media sources and Ariana Grande herself have all called "Everyday" the fourth single, which wouldn't be the case if "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" were a single. Fan4Life (talk) 22:57, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
I said paid purchases are official singles. Free purchases on the other hand are promotional. Key difference right there. Anyway, if there's no evidence of a paid purchase or mainstream radio release, then I don't see how it could be a single (at least not a full-fledged one). Snuggums (talk / edits) 00:29, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
@SNUGGUMS: It was a paid purchase, but so were the album's other promotional singles "Be Alright" and "Let Me Love You". It was never sent to radio. The only difference in how "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" was released compared to the other promotional singles is that it was separate to the album, but that's because it was a bonus track on the Target and Japanese deluxe editions of the album, plus the album had already been released, making a separate release the only possible way of releasing it. Fan4Life (talk) 22:32, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Facepalm Facepalm you just contradicted yourself and obviously have a faulty sense of whether releases are promotional. If anything was a promotional single, then it was a free purchase (likely part of an album ore-order or an iTunes Countdown). Being a paid physical/digital purchase automatically makes it an official single. A promo release can of course become an official single after its initial free release by becoming a paid solo purchase (outside of simple album downloads) or maybe a mainstream radio release. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:47, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
@SNUGGUMS: Promotional singles can be released for purchase, other promotional singles released for purchase include: "Be Alright", "Let Me Love You", "Best Mistake", "Almost Is Never Enough", "Stupid Hoe", "All Things Go", "Inspired", "A-Yo", "Hymn", "Walking on Air", and many more. The vast majority of promotional singles are released for purchase, what separates singles and promotional singles is radio, singles are sent to radio, promotional singles aren't. Fan4Life (talk) 16:08, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
(Shakes head in disappointment) No; radio isn't actually the sole indicator of being or not being an official single. You've probably been blinded by the faulty WP:SINGLE? essay which has no real authority. Radio stations can and have played songs that weren't official singles (even if not nearly as often as full-fledged singles). In fact, popularity among radio can prompt a single release as demonstrated here. Any purchases for promotional singles obviously were inherently not paid physical/digital releases. Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Don't patronise me. Radios can play songs that don't officially impact radio, singles officially impact radio and promotional singles don't. You have nothing to back up what you're saying, I have the vast majority of promotional singles as well as the definitions of single and promotional single. Fan4Life (talk) 20:48, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Nothing I said was patronizing at all. Your definitions for single and promotional single clearly come from the WP:SINGLE? essay, which doesn't count for much, especially when that's known to be flawed. It doesn't solely come down to radio releases contrary to what you assert when singles can just be released for paid physical/digital purchase without any radio impact. Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:29, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
You keep telling me I'm wrong, but you aren't providing any evidence. All singles and the vast majority of promotional singles, as well as the Wikipedia articles on singles and promotional singles, back up what I'm saying. I realise that WP:SINGLE? is an essay, but it has frequently been used to determine whether a song is a single or a promotional single when it hasn't been clear, it's a widely accepted criteria. Fan4Life (talk) 23:58, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
In case it wasn't already clear, what I'm getting at above all else is that your sense of what makes or doesn't make a single is flawed. You also shouldn't simply rely on a problematic essay for such matters and neither should other people. If you have a definite indication "Jason's Song" was a free purchase as opposed to a paid one thus rendering it promotional, then there shouldn't be an issue. Snuggums (talk / edits) 02:21, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
How many times, whether or not a purchase is paid or free does not determine whether a song is a single or a promotional single, the vast majority of promotional singles are released for purchase. Not to mention the fact that you have provided absolutely no evidence to back up what you're saying. Fan4Life (talk) 17:27, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Jason's Song RFC

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Consensus was that "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is merely a single. Discussion focused on whether the existence of a number of sources identifying a different song as the fourth single on this album constitutes sufficient evidence that "Jason's Song" isn't a single. Consensus was that the answer is no, on the grounds that there are plausible explanations for why the sources identify "Everyday" as the fourth single that don't hinge on "Jason's Song" being a promotional single. Thus, concluding that "Jason's Song" is a promotional single when that isn't stated anywhere constitutes original research rather than common sense. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 17:30, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Should "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" be listed as (A) a single or as (B) a promotional single? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:42, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Please cast your !votes in the Survey along with optional very brief comments, but do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Back-and-forth discussion can be included in the Threaded Discussion (that’s what it's for). Robert McClenon (talk) 02:42, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Survey

  • (B) Promotional single as per the sources, there is no convincing argument otherwise. Fan4Life (talk) 15:50, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
  • (A) Single See the past discussion and you will know why. --U990467 (talk) 06:54, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
  • (B) Promotional single From what I see in the previous discussions, there's been contradictions and flaws all round. Some common sense in this case is constantly being mistaken for original research. It's very simple: "Everyday" is widely listed and sourced as the album's 4th single not "Jason's Song" which was not serviced to radio or announced as the 4th single by the singer or her label, no regular single roll out or promo campaign; therefore it is a promo single. Similarly, I would suggest the classification of "Brand New Me" and the countdown songs from Christmas Kisses be relooked at. As the promotional recording articles states a track or promotional song, released by the label (typically) preceding the album's release. The song(s) are released in order to bring attention to an album's release. Buzz singles are not typically issued to radio as promotional singles, due to the fact that they are only intended to attract minor attention compared to a regular single. CoolMarc 21:15, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
  • (A) Single as per the the last RFC - Despite it never being on radio etc it's still a single, No need to keep hashing this out every month. –Davey2010Talk 22:13, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
  • (A) Single per sources. Singles are not required to be sent to radio, although this a common misconception. WP:SINGLE? is a failed essay. Hayman30 (talk) 23:45, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
  • (A) Single Can we just settle this once and for all? Singles do not need to be sent to radio. It's 2018. Radio is not everything. Ss112 06:07, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
  • (A) Single It is was released as a single and being described as a single in sources. The arguments for promotional single don't really convince me otherwise. WikiVirusC(talk) 14:57, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
  • (A) Single per previous discussion and best sources. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:21, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Threaded Discussion

@U990467: "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" wasn't sent to radio, plus Billboard, other media sources and Ariana Grande herself called "Everyday" the fourth single, which wouldn't be the case if "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" were a single. The argument against this definitive evidence is that an earlier Billboard article called the song a single, but that article was later contradicted by another Billboard article. Saying that the song is a single is saying that Billboard is wrong, other media sources are wrong, and Ariana Grande herself is wrong. Fan4Life (talk) 17:34, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Promo single states A promo single (short for promotional single) is a single that is made available to radio stations, nightclubs, music publications, and other media outlets by a record label to promote a commercial single or album. A song may be released as a promotional single even if no commercial version of the single is available to buy. While intended specifically for use by professional disc jockeys and not for resale, they are frequently sought out by music collectors nonetheless. - You yourself admit "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" wasn't sent to radio" ...... So you've pretty much just admitted it's not a promotional single but instead just a normal single .....
I will also just note a few sources ([19][20][21]) all of which refer to this single as just that ... a single, This is really an open & shut case here as has been proven time and time again with these silly RFCs. –Davey2010Talk 22:29, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
@Davey2010: The promotional recording is clearly outdated as promo singles generally haven't been released in that method you quote since the 00s. In the 10s promo singles are released to iTunes, Spotify etc - just because it has been made available for consumption does not make it a single. Any person with knowledge of pop culture and the music industry can tell you that. The same promotional recording states "The song(s) are released in order to bring attention to an album's release. Buzz singles are not typically issued to radio as promotional singles, due to the fact that they are only intended to attract minor attention compared to a regular single" contradicting your earlier quote. Your sources Discogs and Rateyourmusic are not reliable as they are WP:USERGENERATED and irrelevant. Likewise, ITunes don't class songs as "promo single" either, it's a retailer. The song's parent album article Dangerous Woman (album) has listed "Jason's Song" as a promo single for months without contest, contradicting this article. "Jason's Song" also can't be an official single from the album if "Everyday", released after "Jason's Song" is called the fourth single from Dangerous Woman instead by Billboard, Rap-Up and Grande herself, Kiss 92.5, MuchMusic, MTV, iHeart Radio among others. Would all these sources and Grande herself be lying then? CoolMarc 06:15, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
@Coolmarc:, based on what I've read, Jason's Song wasn't on the regular Dangerous Woman album, and it was only on the Target & Japanese exclusive versions of the album. None of those sources are lying, they are simply stating that Everyday is the fourth single, with their focus on the standard version of the album. WikiVirusC(talk) 14:57, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
@WikiVirusC: Songs that don't feature on the standard edition being released as a main single from the album is no rarity though, see Super Bass or Bounce (Iggy Azalea song) for example. CoolMarc 15:10, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
I understand that, but using the fact they call Everyday the fourth single, isn't evidence that they are saying Jason's Song isn't a single, it simply can be them counting those 4 from the primary album. It already is original research to use a Billboard article that doesn't even mention Jason's Song, to determine it's single status, but I'm just pointing out the simple explanation for the reference of Everyday being 4th. WikiVirusC(talk) 15:57, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
It's also original research to say that their focus is on the standard edition though. The lack of coverage online for Jason's Song and only 1 source referring to it as a single, for an artist as publicized as Ariana is not very convincing either. CoolMarc 16:28, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm not arguing for including that in the article, it's just an explanation in response to the OR argument. Lack of coverage or no coverage of the song doesn't really matter as the song does exists. So I don't know what about that bit is suppose to be convincing or not, and it's not like we are making a standalone article for it. A single source as you say referring to it as a single is more convincing than zero sources referring to it as a promotional single. WikiVirusC(talk) 17:38, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
@WikiVirusC: What User:Coolmarc is saying is that there is a distinct lack of evidence supporting the view that "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is a single, whereas there is a large amount of evidence supporting the view that it is a promotional single, including a wide variety of media sources and Ariana Grande herself. The OR argument is that there is nothing to suggest that the source is focusing on the standard edition of the album. Fan4Life (talk) 14:33, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
Once again, Ariana or anyone talking about Everyday is not evidence/proof/sourceable for Jason's Song. WikiVirusC(talk) 14:39, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
@WikiVirusC: Yes it is, various media sources and Ariana herself calling "Everyday" the fourth single is concrete evidence that "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is not a single as if it were then "Everyday" would be the fifth single. Fan4Life (talk) 16:49, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
It can't be "concrete evidence" if there is an easy explanation for why it described as such, as I already have said. I am not sure why I am bothering to respond to the same comments and reasoning I have already addressed in previous replies. WikiVirusC(talk) 17:08, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
@WikiVirusC: I am struggling to understand what type of single "Jason's Song" is then if it can't be the 4th single from Dangerous Woman, then what is it? A stand-alone single, the first single from the Target and Japan edition!? CoolMarc 17:13, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
I wouldn't call it a standalone single as it appeared on a version of the albulm. I wouldn't call it first single from Target/Japan as other singles(including Focus, also not on standard album) were already released. I wouldn't call it anything but simply a single, which Billboard described it as. Not some blog, or fansite, but Billboard. Without much coverage of the song elsewhere in RS, other than the discussing of it's release, or when she preformed it live on the Tonight Show, I won't try to define it more than just that. WikiVirusC(talk) 18:50, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
@WikiVirusC: Billboard later called "Everyday" the fourth single, plus media frequently misuse the word 'single'. If "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" were a single then that would mean that "Everyday" was the fifth single, which would mean that Billboard, other media sources and Ariana Grande herself were all lying/wrong. Fan4Life (talk) 14:58, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
Please see my previous replies to those same arguments. WikiVirusC(talk) 22:45, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
@WikiVirusC: Your previous responses are a mix of original research (claiming they are focusing on the standard edition when there is nothing to suggest that), and refusal to acknowledge sources because they don't support your view. Fan4Life (talk) 20:30, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
I gave an explanation that could explain why, not that the explanation needed to be used in article. That wasn't the primary point of the response. I acknowledged the sources, but the sources don't even mention Jason's song so they can't be used to define it, which was my primary point. WikiVirusC(talk) 21:46, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
@WikiVirusC: Yes they can, because they explicitly refer to "Everyday" as the fourth single, which wouldn't be the case if "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" were a single, proving that it's not a single. Fan4Life (talk) 17:30, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
You claim they can be used, WP:V and WP:OR say otherwise. No source says Jason's Song is promotional single/not a real single, so its 100% UNverifiable. Using deductive reasoning and assumptions is original research and can not be used to determine the content we put in an article. Argue it all you want on talk page, but it can not be used as a source for material in the article. All those sources can be used in regards to Everyday, but they don't mention or relate to Jason's Song, so they can't be used as sources for information about it. WikiVirusC(talk) 17:49, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
@WikiVirusC: It's not original research to use a source that indirectly proves something. Plus, media sources are known to frequently misuse the word 'single', so unless it actually specifies what number the single is (lead/first, second, third, fourth, etc.), the source is vague and therefore questionable. Fan4Life (talk) 22:31, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
@WikiVirusC and Coolmarc: In the single article, it says that "... it is often possible for every track on an album to also be available separately. Nevertheless, the concept of a single for an album has been retained as an identification of a more heavily promoted or more popular song ... within an album collection." However "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" wasn't promoted at all apart from one performance, which is actually less than any other song on the album apart from "Step On Up", meaning that according to Wikipedia's own article, it isn't identifiable as a single. Fan4Life (talk) 14:00, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Possible alternative approach: Forgive the ignorant question, but why is it so important to segregate "promotional singles" away from lead-artist and featured-artist "singles"? Why not merge the promotional singles into the other table(s) and note sourced facts about them being called "promotional", or whatever the sources call them. If there is disagreement in the sources about this particular case, that can be duly noted in its entry. - dcljr (talk) 21:32, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

@Dcljr: Because singles and promotionals singles aren't the same thing. Fan4Life (talk) 22:31, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
And yet, a consensus cannot be reached as to which kind of thing this is. So why is it important to treat the two types differently? - dcljr (talk) 03:50, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
Because they aren't the same thing. Fan4Life (talk) 14:00, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
I am now less surprised that this has required multiple RfCs. OK, let me try a different approach again [edit: not really "different" after all]: LPs and CDs (and tapes, and downloads, etc.) also "aren't the same thing", and yet we do not try to organize our discographies on the basis of release format. That information, although sometimes noted in discographies, is not seen as significant enough to justify being used as a general organizing principle (never mind all the problems with that approach). Why should the difference between "singles" and "promotional singles" be seen as significant enough to warrant separate tables? It seems that discographies do often list promotional singles (and EPs, etc.) separately, but why? It doesn't seem to be necessary, according to the relevant guideline: WP:DISCOGSTYLE doesn't even mention "promotional" anything, much less have a firm guideline about it. Indeed, I just found The Supremes discography#Singles, a seemingly well constructed discography that does exactly what I am suggesting: noting promotional singles, but listing them together with the rest of the singles. Can the same approach not be used here? - dcljr (talk) 23:25, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
That wouldn't solve anything, all it would do is make the article a factually incorrect mess. Fan4Life (talk) 17:00, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
That's literally impossible [referring to "factually incorrect"], since what I am suggesting amounts to a reorganization of existing information on the page and addition of cited/sourced information (about promotional status). - dcljr (talk) 20:04, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
So does anyone else have anything to say about my suggestion? - dcljr (talk) 20:18, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
I would be inclined to support your suggestion and appreciate your willingness to suggest a different approach. 青い(Aoi) (talk) 22:45, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Having a note for promotional single doesn't really solve the issue of whether to call it promotional single or not. Even if we list them together with the singles, we still need to figure out if this particular song would get the promotional note or not. Your one table or current two tables, both ways are fine. WikiVirusC(talk) 22:59, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
@Dcljr, Aoi, WikiVirusC, and Coolmarc: Merging the tables won't solve anything as it does nothing to address the issue that is being discussed, it's a solution to a problem that isn't there. A bigger problem is how sources and evidence have become almost irrelevant in this dispute. There is very little evidence supporting the assertion that "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" is a single, whereas there is a wide variety of sources and evidence that it isn't, but due to a large number of editors holding the view that it is a single, sources and evidence no longer hold any sway. Here's a summary of the argument for each side:
Single
  • "– Single" on iTunes.
  • Billboard referring to it as a single (which is contradicted by a later article).
Promotional single
  • Various media sources (including Billboard) calling "Everyday" the fourth single (which wouldn't be the case if "Jason's Song" were a single, it would be the fifth).
  • Ariana Grande herself calling "Everyday" the fourth single (which wouldn't be the case if "Jason's Song" were a single, it would be the fifth).
  • The well-established fact that singles are sent to radio (which "Jason's Song" wasn't).
  • Wikipedia's own single article stating that "... it is often possible for every track on an album to also be available separately. Nevertheless, the concept of a single for an album has been retained as an identification of a more heavily promoted or more popular song ... within an album collection." ("Jason's Song" was the least promoted song on the album apart from "Step On Up").
  • "Jason's Song" being released no differently to the vast majority of promotional singles (for example, "Inspired" by Miley Cyrus, which was released individually on iTunes and streaming with its own cover, was performed only once and wasn't sent to radio. Exactly the same as "Jason's Song").
Looking at this summary objectively and without the context of the dispute, can anyone seriously understand why the argument for it being a single is winning? It's clear that personal opinion has been getting in the way of sources and evidence. Fan4Life (talk) 14:55, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
@Fan4Life and WikiVirusC: I understand that both of you have staked out your positions on this matter and are unwilling to change them. Furthermore, it seems to me that you see my suggestion as a non-solution precisely because it does not solve the "problem" of how to convince "the other side" in this discussion that "Jason's Song" was or was not a promotional single. Indeed, that is not the problem I'm trying to solve (because, frankly, I don't care which one it is). What my suggestion is a potential solution to is, how to end this series of fruitless discussions so everyone can go on with their lives, and leave the article in a state that everyone may (just possibly) be able to agree on: namely, that there is some ambiguity in the sources about which type of single this particular song is. This allows the article to acknowledge that ambiguity (which it currently does not) while not being forced (in the article) to "pick a side" by listing the song in one table or the other (which it currently does, with the regular singles). That all being said, if my suggestion does not carry the day (as it appears it won't), then so be it. You all can continue to discuss this for the next five years, for all I care. It's no skin off my nose. - dcljr (talk) 17:31, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
It's a RfC, if you want to propose and alternative go ahead. You asked for other comments and I gave mine. I was summoned here by bot, I'll probably be gone when the RfC is closed. I already stopped arguing the point on this subject already since it doesn't seem to be a discussion about the content that is needed, but one about Wikipedia policies. WikiVirusC(talk) 21:24, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GIAW / Breathin

God is a woman is gold in the uk and breathin is silver. Could someone update the table to reflect those certifications? Sixinchboca (talk) 10:51, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Norway vs. Japan

I see that the albums chart includes Japan (but not Norway), while the singles chart includes Norway but not Japan. Shouldn't both include Japan, instead of whatever is the smallest market shown? In fact, since she has released a bunch of recent albums and successful singles, can someone reconsider if the right country's charts are represented? All the best, -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:52, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

France

If you're going to change the singles' table chart to France, can you do the same with albums? Sixinchboca (talk) 13:56, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Japan

So, it's evident that Ariana's popularity has declined in Japan. There are other major music markets where she is more popular (France, Germany) and has more certifications as well. Can we change Japan's section in the table to one of those nations? Is there something that has to be done before that change can be made? Sixinchboca (talk) 15:25, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Guest Appearance section

Most articles have a Guest appearances section,did you know not all of Ariana Grande's appearances are not on the songs page Do you know a song called "Baby It's cold outside" by Larry Lovenstein? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Methembe Linda (talk • contribs) 18:01, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Regarding "Don't Be Gone Too Long" music video

Hello. Should we keep it listed on here? It leaked in full, but it never had a official release, as the collaboration was scrapped. Quickfingers (talk) 19:07, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

UK

There are currently two UK certifications that need to be updated. Dangerous Woman (album) is Platinum and Side to Side is 2x Platinum. Here is the source: https://twitter.com/brits/status/1144612667274850304?s=21

Could someone update the table accordingly? Sixinchboca (talk) 22:31, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2019

188.77.63.25 (talk) 18:51, 19 September 2019 (UTC) Brand New You is not a single by Ariana Grande, and it was released when the musical's album. Please remove it from the part of official singles, doesn't have radio/video/promotion. It's not a single like The Way or God is a Woman. Thanks.
 Not done: The explanatory note Ariana Grande discography#cite note-113 covers this. NiciVampireHeart 19:08, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2019

Change "Dangerous Woman" to "her best album to date" Lovinit1 (talk) 03:16, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: Why? NiciVampireHeart 22:55, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Jason's Song

Hi guys, I think that Jason's Song doesn't have to be considered as a single, it's a promotional single, not a single like Side to Side or Into You. In Dangerous Woman album's page is correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aloureirov (talk • contribs) 18:36, 21 October 2019 (UTC)


I'm agree. Nowdays songs are not only released for sales but both sale and radio to be considered a single. And Jason's song and Brand New You don't meet this. Miaow 19:24, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Charlie's Angels soundtrack

Should the Charlie's Angels soundtrack be considered as part of Ariana's discography? Fan4Life (talk) 18:50, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Although Ariana co-executive produced the Charlie's Angels soundtrack and is on five songs, she's not credited as the artist, so I'm not sure it should be considered as part of her discography. Fan4Life (talk) 16:12, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree. The album artist is credited as various artists, not Ariana Grande. The only time a soundtrack album should be listed in an artist's discography is if they are actually credited as an album artist, like Lady Gaga on A Star Is Born (soundtrack). Billiekhalidfan (talk) 20:02, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Jason's Song is a promotional single

Hi, I've already posted it but I see that nobody has changed it. Jason's Song is not a single like Everyday or Into You in Dangerous Woman. It's a promotional single like Be Alright and Let Me Love You. Ariana said that Everyday was the fourth single, previous ones were Dangerous Woman, Into You and Side to Side. In Dangerous Woman page is okay. Please if someone can, fix it. The digital release doesn't mean being single, to be a single, it has to be promotion like radio support or music video. So Brand New You don't have to be there. Furthermore, it was released in 2007 I think when the 13 soundtrack cd was released. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aloureirov (talk • contribs) 22:15, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

A song does not necessarily need a music video or radio release to be considered a single. She did promote it a bit with a live performance of the track on The Tonight Show Starring Starring Jimmy Fallon. I'm fine with the song being moved to the promotional singles section, but just wanted to point that out. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 23:30, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
Note that two RFCs that took place in 2017 and 2018, respectively, found consensus that the song should be described as a single, rather than a promotional single, in the article. See Talk:Ariana Grande discography/Archive 1#Jason' Song (Gave It Away) and Talk:Ariana Grande discography/Archive 1#Jason's Song RFC. You might want to start a new RFC to determine if the consensus has changed since these RFCs. Aoi (青い) (talk) 01:34, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
If I'm not wrong, Be alright had a bit promotion on tv performances like Jason's songs and is a promotional single. What they are saying is right, Everyday is the fourth single according to the artist. I just checked the Rfcs and the reason they said there to make Jason's song a single is not correct. I'm agree both songs should be moved to Promotional singles section. Miaow 18:31, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree that "Jason's Song (Gave It Away)" should be considered a promotional single, Ariana referred to "Everyday" as the fourth single. Fan4Life (talk) 20:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
Is this still going on? Why do Ariana fans care so much after all these years? Start an RfC for a new consensus, because a few stray opinions is not and should not suddenly overturn two previous RfCs, as Aoi pointed out. Ss112 22:34, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 20 March 2020

Change Jason's Song (Gave It Away) from a Single to a promotional single

Add Time by Childish Gambino feat. Ariana Grande from his 2020 album Donald Glover Presents to guest appearances. Shl13132 (talk) 15:35, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:06, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
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