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Merger Proposal

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A quick glance at this article shows it's not really about the "Levant". The vast majority of the article is based on sources discussing a particular part of the Levant , which casts into light on the peculiar usage of the author (who claims to be a Palestinian on his user page , using Hebrew sources and quoting MEMRI-translations) of such wider term. Of all the cities mentioned here: hardly any of them are outside of the Holy Land. It doesn't even link , or use sources from the History of the Arabs article which show that "Arab migrations to the Levant" can be somewhat misleading , as many areas of the "Levant" (The actual Levant ) were part of the Urheimat and ethnogenesis of Arabic-speaking peoples such as the Qedarites , where also the first ever Arabic inscriptions were in places like Transjordan and the Negev).

Some of the sources here are not represnted properly. Regarding Arabization : Ehrlich said that it was a process of initial tribal settlement as well as acculturation , as shown in his source Arabization versus Islamization in the Palestinian Melkite Community during the Early Muslim Period . He neither conflated Arabization with Islamization , nor said it was a wild onslaught as with the Anglo-Saxons and Britain. The "Arab"="Arabian" equation is more of a pop-culture thing than historical reality , but I think it's obvious who are its adherents and believers , given the few spots of sensationalist language in the article.

Ehrlich's study is also divided per region , yet circumstances of one region (Samaria) are superimposed on the entire land. Other sources are anecdotal such as the one discussing the urban Byzantine-Greek minority (Theodoropoulos) , and another one talking about the Middle East at large than the "Levant" (Donner)..

The article also doesn't mention sources which Ehrlich also cites , like reliable archeological sources like The Byzantine-Islamic Transition in Palestine: An Archaeological Approach , The Archaeology of the Early Islamic Settlement in Palestine demonstrate the continuity of Christian majority up until the Mamluk period , which imply that Muslims - the tribal Arabians the editor is so keen on "exposing"- were a minority before the Mamluks.

I believe all the above shows why its preferable that this article be merged into the "Big picture" article , where it logically belongs .

Unless the author discusses neighboring lands like Lebanon and Syria in more depth so that it would really be about the Levant , and not an hideous way of saying "Israel-Palestine-Holy Land" : this article should be merged , as the content in its current state matches another topic , and the topic itself is likely part of ARBECR restrictions . TheCuratingEditor (talk) 15:27, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello @TheCuratingEditor, I think you should take back some of your comments. First, you are making comments me as a person and on my background. On Wikipedia, we talk about content, not people. This way of talking is something you can get banned for.
I modelled this article based on another article, Arab migrations to the Maghreb. If you have relevant sources, you are welcome to add them.
One final sentence. You say that the article is not about Lebanon and Syria. You should read it again. I think that at least half of it is about places in Syria and Lebanon today. Rajoub570 (talk) 08:49, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey . Just finished a wholesome edit . Anyway :
|First, you are making comments me as a person and on my background. On Wikipedia, we talk about content, not people|
Sometimes ..you know : we might have unconscious proclivities that effect how we edit. That's besides how the sources' content was depicted here .
But that revision ..that doesn't look like a Palestinian's bias , even an indifferent one like an Israeli-Arab. Nobody invents discrediting or embarrassing things about themselves ..especially ones that omit from sources.
If somebody wants to pretend to be a Palestinian : they are going have to do more than just "think like an Arabush" or what ever the scriptwriters in Tel-Aviv like to cook up when making another Fauda season. Just saying ducks have to quack like ducks ..
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|I modelled this article based on another article, Arab migrations to the Maghreb|
Is there a credible reason to assume the processes in North Africa are analogous in the Levant , especially where the Arabic language originated from there compared to the Germanic Vandals ?.
More Arabian tribes actually migrated to the "Levant" (at least how you defined it) than North Africa , where they were influential enough to cause problems . But when seeing the implications of combined available peer-reviewed sources on language and non-Muslim settlement : they tend to imply that acculturation as the lead cause of Arabization , both in Palestine and in other parts of the Levant . Islamization came later while it was associated with foreign settlement of variable scales . There were other factors at play such as the presence of Sufi saints and Ehrlich's thesis , the dwindling of ecclesiastical authorities.. But that was the whole fallacy of the original revision: Islamization isn't related to Arabization ..Islam isn't an ethnic religion ..but then again , who thinks so besides Bat Ye'or and Robert Spencer  ?.
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|You say that the article is not about Lebanon and Syria. You should read it again. I think that at least half of it is about places in Syria and Lebanon today|
I just did . In the earlier revison  : 'Palestine' is used 14 times , 'Jerusalem' 4 times , 'Judaean Desert' , 'Samaria', 'Southern Syria' , 'Gaza' , 'Hebron', 'Bayt Aynun' , 'Transjordan' , and "Bethlehem" all just once  : that's over at least two dozen mentions. As an independent noun referring to the Northern Levant : 'Syria' is used 4-5 times. Other cities like 'Damascus' 8 times throughout the article , and around 7 in modern day South-Lebanon and Syria are only mentioned primarily in the Rashidun era section , the one talking about troops heading to Iberia. The Impact section also only talks about Palestine , and the "see also" includes a link specifically about Ottoman Palestine (Which I just remembered , I'll remove it when I am done here) .
Even with the current revision I just published : it still uses 'Palestine' 17 times.It doesn't look like my initial skimming of the earlier revision missed this focus towards it . It's expectable given the sources , especially Gill whose own work was originally in Hebrew that's mostly based on the Cairo Genizah , and others like Donner are general ones (Who doesn't even believe that Islam as we know it today existed in the Rashidun and much of the Umayyad periods ).
The original form insinuated that Arabic-speakers of the era must have been predominantly transplanted Arabians , an illusion because of undue weight and ignoring things such as the mawali class who's affiliation with Arab tribes was more political than historical , as always with genealogies being more about ideology than reality , and the spread of the Arabic language , such as church records or when the first Arabic translations of the Bible came out.
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I'll concede that the article is more than about the Holy Land , despite its clear predominance. I think it's better to add more archeological sources in the future so as to verify the scale of impact , and the ones that account for cultural acculturation as the factor in the Arabization of the Levant's interior and littoral areas , and to bring more sources specialized in either Lebanon or Syria . Otherwise in my view , a merger with the Palestine demographic history is preferable.
When I see people write as in the prior revision , I would just suggest they all go to r/askhistorians , or Conservapedia. POV and undue weight isn't allowed for a exact reason , and certainly against these purposes. But in the end : it's none of my business . I just care that articles of such individuals are Non-POV and adhere to RS sources faithfully , and censor what's against the rules. Other measures are up to the administrators.
Happy editing , Rajoub570. TheCuratingEditor (talk) 16:38, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm not sure whether the article necessarily needs to merge, but I guess it could be improved and expanded to better reflect its title. The Demographic history of Palestine (region) and Arab migration to the Levant appear to be two distinct topics. The area of the Levant covers a large territory in the Eastern Mediterranean which is much more than just the region of Palestine. The demographic history of Palestine (region), also, seems to cover a much larger period, starting all the way from the Iron Age until the modern era, which is nearly 3000 years. This one seems to attempt to cover a more specific period of time which, I believe, as a topic has merit for a stand alone article. Piccco (talk) 09:52, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose merge as proposed. I'm inclined to agree with Piccco and Rajoub that per this source[1], the Maghreb, Spain, and the Levant are major locations of Arab migrations during the medieval period. This also has to do with Arabization. However, that source says, “Arab migration,” I take it to denote, first, movement by Arabs and Muslims from the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula to far-distance destinations (North Africa and Spain, Egypt, or Iraq and central Asia) and their settlement there. As I will discuss later, this means that the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula form the “region of origin” to Muslims and Arabs. And I was also not sure because the Arabian peninsula is not considered the Levant. But then it mentions shorter-distance mobility within that domain, such as from the Arabian Peninsula to Syria. Therefore, I think that is probably the scope of this article. And since Syria is not Palestine, though both are in the Levant, the merge premise is incorrect on its face. Andre🚐 23:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"But I guess it could be improved and expanded to better reflect its title. "
I believe I have already stated as such in my case. As of now , no additional sources have been added that go beyond Israel-Palestine and concerned with Syria and/or Lebanon in depth yet.
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"I was also not sure because the Arabian peninsula is not considered the Levant."
From the source :
"As a proxy, I consider the Arabian Peninsula and the Levant as places of origin for Arab or Muslim migration during the seventh and eighth centuries"
The author gives an implicit reference to the fact that there already were Arabic speakers in the Levant before the Islamic conquest , as part of their ethnogenesis. Of course a discussion of centuries long history from the Late Iron Age to Muhmmad's birth about Nabatean inscriptions and and evolution of the Arabic script would have simply been off-topic for the paper. TheCuratingEditor (talk) 22:27, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's not accurate, as I just gave a source for Syria. Andre🚐 22:28, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"That's not accurate, as I just gave a source for Syria"
See ? , you are just showing why this article is fuzzy. This (1) , that (2) , and that (3) that make up these these places (A) (B) , are all called "Levant". It's like saying because I moved to Brooklyn from Manhattan , I am no longer in New York ..
That's why I say "Arabian" for these people from that place , and avoid saying "Arab".
Perhaps you want to tell us a time where there were no Arabs in the Levant , in its actual broad sense than a low keyword for some specific place  ?. TheCuratingEditor (talk) 23:10, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? There were Arabs that migrated from the Arabian Peninsula to the area of Syria. The former is not considered the Levant, the latter is. Brooklyn was once a separate city and is now a borough of NYC, but if you migrated from Manhattan to Brooklyn, you did indeed migrate. I don't agree with "avoid saying Arab," because RS say it. And I never said there weren't Arabs in the Levant at any time, but still, Arabization and the migration from the Arab Peninsula did take place. Andre🚐 23:20, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"There were Arabs that migrated from the Arabian Peninsula to the area of Syria" (...) "I never said there weren't Arabs in the Levant at any time"
Good then let's represent that properly , saying that parts of the Levant already were part of the Pre-Islamic Arab urheimat (Original Homeland) .
"Arabian Peninsula" is a geographical exonym. It would have been "Arab peninsula" if it referred to an ethnicity.
It's kinda like Germany and Germania .. Sure , there's overlap between the folks , but they are still different distinct natures . Hence why I used "Arabian" rather than "Arab" , that's to clarify what the sources were referring to.
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"if you migrated from Manhattan to Brooklyn, you did indeed migrate. "
But you are still in New York city . Same thing here : how can a group "migrate" if it originated from the same area? . Are they really "foreign"  ? . You might move around the neighborhood ..that doesn't mean you really left it . You just switched spots in the same place.
That's why I added more than just "History of the Arabs" hyperlink in the Pre-Islamic section in my revison. It's to clarify that yes: there were migrations from that place we now call "Arabian Peninsula" , and no , it's not really interchangeable with "Arabia" , or that it's a short-term for the former. TheCuratingEditor (talk) 23:39, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In this analogy, New York City is the Middle East, the Levant is Brooklyn, and Manhattan is the Arabian Peninsula. We can and should differentiate between different levels of granularity. The Levant contains Syria and Palestine, just as Brooklyn contains Greenpoint and Williamsburg, and the Arabian Peninsula contains Mecca and Medina, just as Manhattan contains the Financial District and Greenwich Village. Andre🚐 23:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Be more precise : New York City is the Levant , Syria-Palestine-Lebanon is Brooklyn , and Manhattan is Arab-ia. ..You are just going back to square one of conflating two different supersets .
"Arabia" overlaps with "Arabian Peninsula" , but much of "Arabia" isn't in "Arabian Peninsula" . That's is why for example the first inscriptions of "Arabic" are actually in "Levant" at Ayn Avdat (Negev) and Transjordan.
Have you read my replies in depth , or you just want to keeping repeating ad nauseum the "Arab=Non Levantine=Arabian" equation until I rage quit ? .. We might as well just cut out the Pre-Islamic section entirely. TheCuratingEditor (talk) 00:23, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's not what the source here says. [2] The Arabian Peninsula isn't considered part of the Levant. Andre🚐 00:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

recent changes

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I reverted the recent changes as they appeared to in some cases remove sources or in other cases state claims that I couldn't verify. Creating new section to discuss since the only other discussion was about a merger proposal. Andre🚐 20:08, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. ..I was actually making an edit this whole or so hour , that was going to add 4 additional sources .. It couldn't be published because of conflicts as the base article I was working on had already been reverted.. wasting my time and efforts in the end.
"They appeared to in some cases remove sources"
No sources were removed , they were only verified . Can I ask how because a "chunk" of content seems to have been removed, that it could be to none other than malicious intent behind the removal ?.
Here is the differences tab... It's clear it was aimed chiefly at Loaded Language , and some irrelevant anecdote from the (originally Hebrew) Moshe Gil source from a Genizah document.
Additions included specifying the primary sources of these secondary sources , restoration of contrary statements from the sources such as from Fred Donner and Bernard Lewis, and addition of other sources in the last section (As shown here) , and linking with other Wikipedia articles , and using non-POV /neutral language.
The byte-counter is a false alarm , and I think the difference tab should have been checked first before such quick revert.
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"In other cases state claims that I couldn't verify""
While I do have personal access to the sources , I am going to add Internet Archive links here for the Lewis and Donner statements:
https://archive.org/details/the-arabs-in-history/page/70/mode/2up?q=%22A+small+minority%22
https://archive.org/details/earlyislamicconq0000donn/page/246/mode/2up?q=%22Syrian+peasants%27%22
https://archive.org/details/earlyislamicconq0000donn/page/246/mode/2up?q=%22Authenticity%27%22
It's evident a few lines were omitted which challenged the "narrative" of genocidal hordes built up in the prior revision.
Is there any other suspicion towards my version , or valid reasons why the current revision should be maintained ?. TheCuratingEditor (talk) 22:16, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The original version seemed to have the following statements:

Arab sources depict Byzantine-allied tribes such as the Banu Judham and Banu Ghassan as concentrated in Provincia Arabia (later known as Palestina Tertia), encroaching over the Levant's borderlands and on the frontiers of the Roman and later Byzantine Empires.[1] In one Arabic source, the region is referred to as "al-Takhim", a term borrowed from Hebrew and most certainly used by Jews.[1] The Banu Judham, the main tribe inhabiting the deserts south of Palestine, are associated with Shuaib in Arab tradition. Their Christian influences were notable due to their Byzantine connections, and while some members of the Banu Wa'il branch were connected to Judaism, only a few actually converted.[2] The Banu Lakhm, who mingled with the Banu Judham and were based in the northern Euphrates, also had a presence in Palestine.[1] The Banu Ghassan, or Ghassanids, a large federation of tribes, were important Byzantine allies against other Arab tribes.[1][3] Migrating in significant numbers[4] to southern Syria and northern Transjordan,[3] they established a vassal kingdom under Byzantine authority,[4] with their center in Jabiya, a settlement located in the eastern Golan.[3]

The conquest led to a urban depopulation, with many local residents fleeing,[5][6] creating vacancies that Muslim migrants occupied.[6] The Umayyad era saw further settlement in the Levant, as the rulers aimed to maintain distinct tribal identities and manage demographics through population transfers.[7] Estimates suggest that by the end of the first century of Islam, about a quarter of a million Arabs had settled in Palestine and Syria.[8]

Antioch's residents were given the choice to stay and pay tax or leave, and many chose the latter.[5] Archaeological evidence, including a notable reduction in Caesarea's urban area, suggests that large-scale migration and depopulation occurred, especially along the Levantine coast; some Syrian cities also experienced substantial size reductions.[5] It appears that the citizens of Emesa also departed, as an Arab commander allocated the abandoned houses and lands to Muslim Arabs.[5] Some sources report Muslims entered into agreements with residents of various towns, which included conditions requiring the locals to vacate certain properties to accommodate Muslim newcomers.[9] Often, these agreements specified that townspeople were to relinquish half of their homes and churches for use as living spaces and mosques.[9] The abandonment of urban properties—whether due to flight, voluntary evacuation, or dispossession—led to their gradual occupation by Muslims.[10]

In the edit I reverted it is changed to:
(first part removed)

Muslim sources such as Al-Yaqubi depict mention the Ghassanids and Judham tribal federations as Byzantine-clients in the Levant , acting as a buffer against the Sassanians under Byzantine tutelage,[1] as well as encroaching Arabian tribes . The Ghassanids were able to establish a Vassal Kingdom under Byzantine authority with Jabiya located in eastern Golan, as the capital.[3] The Banu Lakhm, who mingled with the Banu Judham and were based in the northern Euphrates, also had a particular presence in Palestine.[1]

Some archeological evidence suggests certain areas were depopulated, likely as considerable portion of its population fled , an example being Caesarea whose size has been reduced by 70% in the 7th century. [5] especially along the Levantine coast; some Syrian cities also experienced substantial size reductions.[5] Many of the citizens of Emesa also departed. Muslim sources state that the Muslims entered into agreements with residents of various towns and cities , which included conditions requiring the locals to vacate certain properties to accommodate the Muslim newcomers , as well as to relinquishing half of their homes and churches for use as living spaces and mosques.[9] Fred Donner disputes the authenticity of some of these treaties and their details mentioned in Muslim sources are of uncertain, and assumed they may have been "systematizations of subsequent generations of legal scholars seeking to rationalize later taxation or legislative measures".[10] The abandonment of urban properties—whether due to flight, voluntary evacuation, or dispossession—led to their gradual resettlement by Muslims.[10]

While I think the source supports, "The conquest led to a urban depopulation, with many local residents fleeing Archaeological evidence, including a notable reduction in Caesarea's urban area, suggests that large-scale migration and depopulation occurred, especially along the Levantine coast; some Syrian cities also experienced substantial size reductions. It appears that the citizens of Emesa also departed, as an Arab commander allocated the abandoned houses and lands to Muslim Arab", I don't see a basis for "Some archeological evidence suggests certain areas were depopulated, likely as considerable portion of its population fled" or "Muslim sources state that the Muslims entered into agreements with residents of various towns and cities , which included conditions requiring the locals to vacate certain properties to accommodate the Muslim newcomers , as well as to relinquishing half of their homes and churches for use as living spaces and mosques vs Some sources report Muslims entered into agreements with residents of various towns, which included conditions requiring the locals to vacate certain properties to accommodate Muslim newcomers (mosque portion 2nd sentence and framed differently) Or for The migration of Arabian tribes played a role in the Islamization of the Holy Land by settling in abandoned areas. Andre🚐 22:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
..That's quite a lot of quoting.
I had already said I removed that anecdote about the Judham tribe .. I am not quite sure why you insist on a Medieval Jewish tradition (Not Muslim as depicted here ) of Bedouins adopting some alleged Hebrew typography , is relevant to Arabian migrations ? .
Besides that , I linked to other Wikipedia articles to provide a background for the content in that section .
Here's also the Theodoropoulos source :https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341208539_The_Migration_of_Syrian_and_Palestinian_Populations_in_the_7th_Century_Movement_of_Individuals_and_Groups_in_the_Mediterranean
What I am seeing here is somebody stringing together quotations to make a narrative to present it as the source's content . That's not
So what you are saying because there's more volume , and phrasing that is more colorful and detailed , that it likely to be an extraction from the source , or a faithful representation of it ? ..That's not really verification. We have seen examples of that.
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"The migration of Arabian tribes played a role in the Islamization of the Holy Land by settling in abandoned areas."
If you had seen the hyperlinks in my earlier Reponses : you wouldn't really think the bolded part is a "bonus". You can enter these phrases into the internet Archive links : I quoted from the sources either verbatim or summarized them. The sources clearly say Arabians either went to the open countryside , or houses abandoned in the urban cities. Ehrlich also confirmed that. TheCuratingEditor (talk) 22:59, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SYNTH is stating a conclusion based on your own piecing together that isn't explicitly stated in the sources. Your changes are much less faithful as I showed above. Linking to other Wikipedia articles is not a source. I'm not sure what you mean about me insisting on Hebrew typography, or about volume and phrasing, I didn't say that at all. You changed "towns" to "towns and cities," which isn't in the source, nor do I see the "abandoned areas" in the source. Andre🚐 23:23, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what Synth is . At that rate  : Wikipedia would just be a straight block of excerpts.. might as well just turn into a library.
It's actually the revision that you are advocating for that is a synth... It literally mixes between the countryside and urban areas , the whole country and specific areas , and a few cases with general trends.
I use both summaries and excerpts , especially the later for verification. It depends on which is sufficient and if the original text is too long.
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"Typography"
My bad , I meant "toponym" . Looks my auto corrector extension will be dumped away soon...
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"Nor do I see the "abandoned areas" in the source. "
That's because here I call back to the rest of the article. The word "abandoned" was literally used 5 times before that section , and only one instance is a direct excerpt ,had the word "yard" in it.
In fact , in the edit that I was making before you reverted : I was adding archeological sources in that section . TheCuratingEditor (talk) 00:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there some way that you could make your replies more concise and use less space? Every reply is a huge WP:TEXTWALL that's a bit difficult to respond to. Also, your edit had some grammar and typographical issues of its own; I take it that English isn't your native tongue, but could you please try at least to conform with the lexicographical and orthographic norms of discussion and editing? At any rate, I was not advocating for the prior revision, and reverting a bold edit doesn't mean I am now responsible for the entire text of the previous page; it was clear that your revision was a non-improvement and possibly furthering a slow motion edit war. You've now moved the goalposts to that there was SYNTH in the current version. If that's the case, can you concisely with specific points, show what claim the current version makes that isn't in any source? If so, it should be easy to either rebut that by providing the source, or make appropriate edits to excise that from the article or change it. Andre🚐 00:16, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"it was clear that your revision was a non-improvement(..) possibly furthering a slow motion edit war."
I guess I can finally see the problem here , seeing "improvement" involves insisting on removal of corroborating sources and insisting on language that doesn't fit the sources ..I really don't know what to say at this point.
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"Every reply is a huge WP:TEXTWALL that's a bit difficult to respond to" (...) "can you concisely with specific points, show what claim the current version makes that isn't in any source?"
That's quite an amusing oxymoron , you know ? . Seeing the conversation so far , It doesn't look like there will be much progress for a mutual understanding .
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"It should be easy to either rebut that by providing the source"
That , and the answer to the above , will all be in my next edit some week or so later . I'll add a lot excerpts from the current sources here , as well as others , and will try to combine the paragraphs and sections of the two revisions.
Now , I am very much done for today.
Happy Editing , Andre. TheCuratingEditor (talk) 01:00, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ a b c d e f Gil 1997, p. 19.
  2. ^ Gil 1997, p. 18.
  3. ^ a b c d Avni 2014, p. 212.
  4. ^ a b Ehrlich 2022, pp. 77–78.
  5. ^ a b c d e f Theodoropoulos 2020, pp. 265–266.
  6. ^ a b Donner 2014, pp. 245–246.
  7. ^ Gil 1997, p. 134.
  8. ^ Lewis 2002, p. 70.
  9. ^ a b c Donner 2014, p. 246.
  10. ^ a b c Donner 2014, p. 247.
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