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Query: PROD of Aplu (deity)

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[Discussion originally posted at the talk page of Andrew Davidson, and moved here by him] Hi there! A few days ago I noticed that Aplu (deity) had been proposed for deletion, citing a lack of evidence to support the existence of such a god (or at least, the historical belief in him). Since the article came under the purview of CGR, I checked to see whether there might be a problem with the nomination: for instance, if the nominator had adequately checked the sources cited, or if the problem seemed likely to be that the sources were inadequate, but other reliable sources might be available. After all, I don't like deleting anything that can be verified just because the article's authors didn't do a good job of sourcing it! I'll summarize what I found about the sources in the next paragraph, but I couldn't see any issues with the nomination and so left it to the experts to raise any objections. I see you've deprodded it, but you didn't provide a reason in the edit summary, or on the article's talk page, and there isn't anything here or on the nominator's talk page (or there wasn't when I checked earlier) about this article. So I thought I'd ask you.

When I checked a couple of days ago, none of the sources cited seemed to support the basic claim that this was a Hurrian deity of the plague—or anything else, or seemed likely to: the definition of Smintheus, an epithet of Apollo, wouldn't likely discuss Hurrian gods (I'd encountered it before, and knew it was an epithet of Apollo), and the Iliad certainly wouldn't do so; I knew that Aplu was Etruscan for Apollo, but a book on Etruscan myth probably wouldn't delve into Hurrian deities; the same note cited Mackenzie, Myths of Babylonia and Assyria, which I did find (and it's not from 2005; it's early 20th century and, just scanning it, it seems a bit dated, although if it supported the claim I would agree with deprodding), and it didn't mention such a deity. I didn't think a journal article on "Troy and the Trojan War" would discuss Hurrian deities either. This morning after I saw that the article had been deprodded, I delved deeper, and verified that none of the sources cited support the premise that Aplu was a Hurrian plague god.

The only source that even came close was "Troy and the Trojan War", which merely noted that a treaty between the Hurrians and (probably) Troy invoked the gods of each, including one that might be identified with Apollo—it doesn't call him Aplu and it doesn't say that he was a Hurrian deity or that he had anything to do with plague. This article looks to be a bit of amateur synthesis: the treaty is Hurrian, therefore the god must have been worshiped by the Hurrians; the Etruscans got the name Aplu at an early time, so it must have been the god's original (Hurrian) name—or as stated, Aplu is an epithet of Nergal, although this is the first time I've heard that claim; our article on Nergal doesn't mention that or Apollo. The Iliad calls Apollo Smintheus, so in the earliest sources describing his attributes he was associated with disease; Apollo was a solar deity, and the Hurrians lived in the near east, so he must have been connected with Shamash; Babylonian mythology is based on Sumerian mythology, so he must be of Sumerian origin, and so on. At least, that's my best guess: I haven't found anything to substantiate the article's premise. Do you know of anything, or is there some other reason for deprodding the article? P Aculeius (talk) 13:22, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That was a treaty between Hittites and Wilusa, not Hurrians. Hurrians influenced late Hittite culture in many ways but there was, to my knowledge, no direct contact between Hurrians and either Wilusa or any other vaguely "Greek" Bronze Age polity. I'd also like to add that plagues were handled by Ishara (a female deity with nothing in common with Apollo) in Hurrian religion, and Ishara is attested in that role in the westernmost Hurrian centers in Kizzuwatna, with no Aplu of any sort anywhere in sight. The only Aplu/Apulu in existence appears to be Etruscan and is derived from Apollo. The matter is not complicated and this is bordering on intentionally creating misinforamation about a more obscure topic to assign greater antiquity to Greek religion.HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 09:23, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Aplu and Apulu

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@Est. 2021: was your intention to rewrite Aplu (deity) and move it to Apulu? – Uanfala (talk) 12:16, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

apollo as roman equivalent

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@Est. 2021 i think that apollo should be the roman equivalent because apollo is the greek equivalent. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 01:09, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ghost Cacus: that's not how it works: being the Greek equivalent doesn't necessarily mean he had the exact same characteristics in Roman culture too. You already changed the Greek equivalent from Apollo Smintheus to basic Apollo, but the Etruscan Apulu/Aplu only shared some aspects of the Greek god, not all of them: they shared the etym, the connection to light and few other characteristics, but the Etruscan Apulu/Aplu was primarily a fire and death god, and Apollo Smintheus was the only persona of Apollo remotely linked to plague and death. Remember that, unlike in Greece, in the Etruscan mythology Apulu/Aplu (Apollo) and Aita/Eita (Haides) both were just two of the many epitheths of the volcanic fire god Śuri (roughly equivalent to Norse Surtr), later latinised as Soranus: in fact, as I already wrote on your talk page last time, there's plenty of sources about Apulu-Aita-Rath-Manth-Calu and many other god-names being just epithets for Śuri, hence known in Roman culture as Apollo Soranus, so we can know without doubts that Etruscan Apulu/Aplu and Soranus are totally equivalent, being literally the same god. Thanks for understanding, Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 05:28, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Give me one source that says it's Soranus and not Apollo. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 17:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ghost Cacus: Stop playing, I already gave you more than one. I added the sources to the page long time ago,[1][2][3] way before your recent reverts. Instead of ignoring both the sources and this talk page, and writing vulgarities in the edit summary, learn how to behave. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 17:18, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not that ip. I'm being serious. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 17:19, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
NVM for my recent reply Ghost_Cacus (talk) 17:19, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You should put it on the page for less confusion. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 17:21, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
NVM didn't see Ghost_Cacus (talk) 17:22, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ghost Cacus: Stop acting dumb. The sources have been on the main page for months, and you already tried to delete them several times. You came here writing vulgarities from your account. The fact you also used an anonymous IP (23.242.174.8) to circumvent this talk page and delete the sources is just a very serious addition, and the fact you're trying to deny it is even worse. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 17:28, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's not me. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 17:29, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(here from WP:AN): I don't see that any of these sources support the claim that Apulu and Soranus were equivalents. Virgil 11.786 mentions Apollo of Soracte, but neither Apulu or Soranus. Myth Index says that Soranus was a Sabine (not Roman!) deity who Roman poets sometimes identified with the Greek Apollo. Bouke van der Meer identifies Suri with the Faliscan Soranus, but does not mention Apulu. At best Bouke van der Meer supports the claim that the Faliscan equivalent of Apulu is Soranus, and even that seems weak to me. It requires holding that if Apulu is an aspect of Súri, and Súri is equivalent to Soranus, then Apulu is equivalent to Soranus, but I am not convinced that this is obviously true: if the equivalence is based on one particular aspect of a god, then other aspects which sometimes have entirely different domains might well not also be equivalent Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(See also Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome#Deity equivalents for a related discussion about when we should describe gods as equivalent in infoboxes, where people tend to support fairly strict sourcing requirements for claims about deity equivalence) Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:44, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(From WP:CGR.) I agree with Caecilius. None of those sources say that Apulu is equivalent to Soranus or Apollo. Both of you need a reliable source – preferably a scholarly non-primary one – which directly supports your claimed equivalence. You cannot synthesise sources to make such a claim and you cannot misreport them to that end either. That is the policy. Ifly6 (talk) 14:27, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ifly6 and Caeciliusinhorto-public: Śuri/Soranus has been identified with: Calu,[2][4][5] Manth,[6][7][5] Rath,[7][5] Vetis,[5] Aita (Dīs),[8][7][9][5] Apulu/Aplu (Apollo).[1][10][2][7][9][5][3] Furtherly, the epithet Apulu/Aplu has expressly been identified with: Śuri,[7][5] Rath,[11] Usil,[12] Vetis.[13] Similar parallelisms between Aplulu/Aplu and Suri can be found in Colonna's and De Grummond's works. You can find a more complete bibliography at User:Est. 2021/Draft/Śuri/Foot, which I mean to expand. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 23:51, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Śuri/Soranus has been identified with ... Apulu/Aplu (Apollo).[1][10][2][7][9][5][3] As best I can tell, none of those sources say that Apulu/Aplu's Roman equivalent was Soranus. Half of them don't even mention Apulu. If I'm missing something, could you please quote the relevant passages? Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 13:15, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Caeciliusinhorto-public: I already placed the most fast-to-read sources at the bottom of this talk, among them the National Etruscan Museum (Italian: Museo Nazionale Etrusco).[7][5] Both of them are also expressely based on other sources, among them the ones I linked before and you just cited – that identify Śuri/Soranus as the Etruscan Apollo,[1][10][2][9][3] whose Etruscan translation was Apulu[14][15][16][17][18][19] – with the addition of Colonna's and De Grummond's works, among the others. Their names are associated on Pyrgi inscriptions too.[20][7] Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 18:51, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can you quote for us anything that says Soranus and Apulu are equivalent? Just find one reputable scholarly source and quote the passage in this talk page. Ifly6 (talk) 19:11, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
^. I'm gonna put some sources for Apollo soon. Also, like I keep saying, Soranus is Roman-Etruscan. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 19:14, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm willing to say that Apulu and Apollo were identified together. OCD4 says as much sv religion, Etruscan: Apollo (Aplu), Artemis (Aritimi/Artumes), and Heracles (Hercle) kept their Greek names, but sometimes assumed new features. It's these other equivalences which seem to be WP:SYNTH. Ifly6 (talk) 19:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I already placed the most fast-to-read sources at the bottom of this talk, among them the National Etruscan Museum: that does not say that Soranus was the Roman equivalent of Apulu. It says that Soranus was the Faliscan equivalent of Súri. The closest it comes to giving a Roman equivalent is "agli occhi dei Greci e dei Romani - e forse anche degli stessi Etruschi - doveva sembrare molto vicino ad Apollo": i.e. that to Roman eyes the closest god to Súri was ... Apollo. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:21, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Caeciliusinhorto: Sorry, but the National Etruscan Museum literally states: Questo dio così particolare nelle iscrizioni di culto viene chiamato anche con altri nomi, quali Rath e Manth e, a partire dal IV secolo a.C., compare anche come “Aplu” ovvero “Apollo” secondo la fonetica etrusca[7] (English: in the inscriptions, Súri was also known with other theonyms, e.g. Manth, Rath, and – since the 4h century BCE – he was also called Aplu, the latter being the Etruscan translation of Apollo.) Maras, in the section titled "Quanti nomi per un dio!" (English: "How many names for one god!") lists Suri, Manth, Rath, Aplu, and Vetis.[5] In the following section, the author furtherly adds: Ma il nome di Suri è noto in molte altre parti dell'Etruria: ad Arezzo contrassegna un gettone oracolare in alternativa con Aplu (vedi «Archeo» n. 282, agosto 2008), [...] il Pater Soranus, al quale era consacrato il monte Soratte e che era venerato dagli Hirpi Sorani, speciali sacerdoti vestiti di pelli di lupo[5] basically adding further notes on the aforementioned equivalence. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 00:03, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't necessarily mean he's an equivalent. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 00:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it kinda does. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 00:12, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That means that the Etruscan god Súri was also known as Aplu/Apollo. Not that Aplu's Roman equivalent was Soranus. (And the Mara's source once again discusses Soranus as a Faliscan god). The way I see it, all of the following are separate claims:
  • Soranus is the Roman equivalent of Aplu
  • Soranus is the Faliscan equivalent of Aplu
  • Aplu was also known as Soranus
  • The Romans worshipped the Etruscan god Aplu under the name Soranus
If you want to say the first of these, you need to find a source which says that and not one of the other three things. (I would also prefer it be a source which says explicitly that the Roman equivalent of Aplu was Soranus, not that Aplu was an epithet of Súri and the Roman equivalent of Súri was Soranus, for the reasons I already gave in my initial comment).
TBH, I really don't care that much about Roman religion. I've said my piece: I'll leave it up to people who care about this article what to do. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 06:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You will never find anything like that about any deity. Interpretatio graeca and intepretatio romana are speculative methods, there's no precise science behind them, so contemporary scholar don't waste their time on speculative equivalences between gods. They can point the similarities, but no scholar will ever say "Odin is 100% equivalent to Zeus" (the Romans equated him to Mercury, for example). Ancient authors loved to do that, but modern ones usually don't. 100% of the equivalences listed on this wiki, for any deity, are not backed by any scholar if not obliquely, that is comparing academically the accepted names and attributes. 93.40.225.200 (talk) 03:55, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b c d Virgil, 11.786.
  2. ^ a b c d e Bouke van der Meer 2013, pp. 323–341.
  3. ^ a b c d Myth Index.
  4. ^ Rissanen 2013.
  5. ^ a b c d e f g h i j k Maras 2010.
  6. ^ Colonna 2006, p. 141.
  7. ^ a b c d e f g h i National Etruscan Museum.
  8. ^ De Grummond 2004, p. 359.
  9. ^ a b c d Obnorsky 1900.
  10. ^ a b c Pliny the Elder, 7.2.
  11. ^ Bonfante & Bonfante 2002, p. 204.
  12. ^ Nonoss 2015.
  13. ^ Kenney & Clausen 1983.
  14. ^ Krauskopf 2006, pp. vii, pp. 73–75.
  15. ^ Bonfante & Bonfante 2002, p. 194.
  16. ^ Jannot 2005, p. 146.
  17. ^ Cristofani 2000, pp. 161–162.
  18. ^ Cristofani 1985, pp. 12–13.
  19. ^ De Grummond & Simon 2006.
  20. ^ Colonna 2009, pp. 101–126.
  • Lecce, Vittoria. "Novembre e il dio Suri - Il Nero Signore" (in Italian). Museo Nazionale Etrusco.
  • Maras, Daniele F. (2010). "Suri. Il nero signore degli inferi". Archeo (in Italian). No. 305. Archived from the original on 2014-12-10.
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