Talk:Antoine Mac Giolla Bhrighde

This article was nominated for deletion on 25 January 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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Untitled

Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Extremist, terrorist and freedom fighter

Questions

It seems clear from various sources that MGB died in a gun battle with British troops. Objective proof of this is that a British soldier was also shot dead in the incident. But we have a claim that he was stopped, handcuffed and then executed. If this is the case, then how did one of the British troops die?

So three questions, 1, what exactly does the Tir Gra sources say about the ambush?

2, Does it really say that he was unarmed? To my knowledge IRA teams were always armed with rifles and handguns on operations, even if they did not intend to use them in the attack itself. Also, in this case, they obviously used them.

3, Were there really only the two of them (Fleming and MGB) involved in the attempted bombing? It seems likely that there would have been at least one more, eg one to detonate the bomb, one to keep watch, another to drive the getaway car.

Jdorney 15:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Tony was captured, interrogated and shot".
I think Andy McNab and Frank Collins give a description in there SAS books, I havent got the books to hand but from what I reemmber both state that he was unarmed and one states the there was confusion and he he made a lunge for on of the SAS guys guns and the other states he took an opportunity to do a runner. Again I aint ogt the books and that could be completely wrong.
There were more in the ASU otherwise command wouldnt have got any reports back - lets just say Bik McFarlane was supposed to be out of the country at the time.--Vintagekits 15:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so lets be clear, Tir Gra says he was captured during the gun battle? Does this mean that they say that there was an exchange of fire, he was cornered, surrendered and was then shot, "while trying to escape"? This makes more sense. (Not saying this is what happened, but at least it could have happened). Further, he was armed, but had been diarmed by the time he was shot, is this right?

On the other point, without getting into libelous allegations against Brendan McFarlane, who is still alive and currently awaiting trial on kidnapping charges, what you're saying that there were other IRA men involved in the operation. OK. How many?

Jdorney 15:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, Tony thought the SAS were civilians, they were parked in the car park before the army arrived and were dressed as civilians and in a civilian car and he went over to warn them to get out of there, then they jump jumped up and told him to halt and throw away his gun, he replied he didnt have one, then he was detained or shot. The gun battle was from another position I think.
As to the second point, I dont know for sure.--Vintagekits 15:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reference deletion

Following the rationale at Talk:Diarmuid O'Neill, I propose deleting the following two references:

relativesforjustice.com as it only contains basic details covered by the other more neutral references in the paragraph.
An Phoblact as it is a notices page, again with very little detail covered by other references.

Think this one is fairly uncontroversial, so I'll go ahead and remove them. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 13:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kesh Ambush

I'm a bit confused by this. Do we know how many British Army personnel were present. Just two? If the BA had prior knowledge of the attack, why were the ASU able to set up the mine, make the call, observe the RUC approaching, and actually try to detonate the mine? It seems strange that they (the BA) would let the attack go ahead, killing the RUC officers, before doing anything. Was this an actual ambush, or were the SAS officers just observing the ASU? This would seem likely if there were just two of them present. Maybe I'm missing something, my alcohol soaked brain in not quite operational this morning. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 11:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They had some prior knowledge, I had a look at Murray earlier and the timeline is quite confusing though. It doesn't seem to be an ambush in the traditional "concealed soldiers open fire on IRA members at a pre-determined location" sense, I'll say that much. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 12:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually having looked at this more, the whole section needs a complete rewrite using Murray, who uses the actual two conflicting sources - the IRA and the SAS. CAIN merely have a super brief summary lacking any actual detail. Take "A British Army soldier, Lance Corporal Al Slater, from Leicestershire, was also killed in the exchange of fire, further contradicting the republican sources" for example. What the IRA say is that two volunteers opened fire on the SAS after Mac Giolla Bhrighde was shot, so there's nothing contradictory at all. From memory, it is how Mac Giolla Bhrighde got shot in the first place that is disputed, not that there was a gun battle at all. I'll take a stab at sorting it out tomorrow. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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