Talk:Anti-German sentiment/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

The Queen

Can anyone add information on how the Royal family had to "hide" their German roots during WW2? It seems to be a pretty clear and useful case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.118.169.111 (talk) 18:50, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Merge

During the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Organised persecution of ethnic Poles the consensus seem to to merge this article into anti-Polish sentiment; the German versions are used as an example in discussion and there are several suggestions they should be merged as well. Comments appreciated.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  12:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Soap operas are about sentiments. Rename all sentiment articles before you merge anything.Xx236 16:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I do not think that merging is a good idea. For example, Antisemitism and Persecution of Jews are two different topics. Anti-German sentiment and Organised persecution of ethnic Germans are also different. Former is about sentiment and propaganda, later is about real action, such as imprisonment, execution, etc. However, there is some overlap here. The article about "persecution" includes anti-German sentiment and rightly so. This is because any action (persecution) requires first to convince people that such action is necessary (hence the "anti-sentiment"). Still, I think it is perfectly fine to have some degree of overlap in articles about different subjects if it makes articles more readable.Biophys 20:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the two are quite inter-related (for instance regarding WWI), and sometimes the line between sentiment and persecution is a gray one. However, as Biophys points out, we have two articles for Jews, and now for Poles, so I'm not vehemently in favour of merging (though I do think readability will ultimately improve if we do combine the two). In either case, let's aim for some consistency across ethnicities - that's paramount. Biruitorul 03:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Do not merge. Merging is a bad idea.

Skeeter08865 (talk) 21:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia

We need a paragraph on anti-German sentiments on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.118.169.111 (talk) 18:47, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Germanization rather than germanization

Xx236 16:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

British public people...

The quote should be removed or supported with other sources.Xx236 14:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism by 194.9.5.10

The Wreschen repressions are described in the linked article. Maria Konopnicka existed and wrote an anti-German poem. What shall I prove more? I don't even know why do you protest - as German or as Polish?Xx236 12:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It needs to be separate

This is of particular signifance to the expulsion of after World War 2. Harlowraman 09:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

wrong information

Germans sometimes complain of stereotypical associations of them with acts and a regime of more than sixty years ago, such as the use of anti-German sentiment in headlines by parts of the British press, recent examples arising when German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger became Pope Benedict XVI, though Ratzinger had been a member of the Nazi party and in the German army during World War 2, so the tabloids had some legitmacy rather than just relying on a stereotype.

Hi, I'm going to change this because as a short click on the Benecict XVI link shows, it's plain wrong. Ratzinger was never a member of the Nazi party (hey, he was just 18 when the war ended). He was a member of the Hitler Youth but it's not as if any german boy had had any choice about that. The same is true for the short time of military service that followed. So the tabloids didn't have any legitimacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.109.222.60 (talk) 10:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Pope Benidict was not a member of the Nazi Party. However the German youth did have a choice. Yes it was cumpolsory by the end of the war (I do not believe it was before the war) to be a member, it was quite possible to avoid it especailly at the end of the war. There were several wartime 'gangs' of youths based on old SDP and Communist affiliation that resisted joining the HY. Though some died for thier defiance (White Rose movement). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.78.209.134 (talk) 14:22, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Evading Hitler Youth service was not outright impossible, though it certainly would have put the boy and his family at extreme risk. Remember, we're talking about a totalitarian police-state, where non-membership of ideological institutions such as the HY or Reichsarbeitsdienst would have had serious repercussions with near certainty. Joining one of "several wartime youth 'gangs'" so as to resist the regime or stay clear of its indoctrination, is an all-but hypothetical argument. Hence, it is legitimate to say that if German kids had any chance of avoiding HY service, it certainly was too remote to offer any 'choice'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.176.206.130 (talk) 15:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Robert Graves

I've requested an additional source to support the claim that in 1919 the anti-German sentiment started to diminish in Britain. The only reference given is a quote from a writer of German descent and thus he may have had a POV to express. An anti-French POV it seems. Was his view the common view in Britain as is implied in the article? A reference other than Graves is needed. 125.7.44.167 21:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, Graves isn't considered an authority on this subject and the book from which the quote is taken is not a referenced scientific publication but an autobiography. Autobiographies are not a recounting of facts but a recounting of perspective. I will remove the quote if it remains unsupported by other references. 125.7.44.167 12:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

From you logic one could also argue that as Graves's father was Irish he may have had anti-English bias as well! He is reporting on the bias as he found it at Oxford which he was well qualified to express. --PBS (talk) 13:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

From your logic any statement made in an autobiography is without POV and objective. His opinion means nothing Without external sources backing his POV. Shouldn't be difficult to find if his view was the common one. LuciferTom (talk) 00:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Showing point of view

As a member of WikiProject Germany, I have begun to neutralizes this article. I advise others to do so. --Alien joe (talk) 21:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Quality

This article needs a lot of work. Many sections are incomplete, examples are patchworked together, and the tone is inconsistent. While not perfect, the Anti-Italianism article shows many ways in which this article could be improved.Udibi (talk) 01:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Quote: Anti-German sentiment has endured in some countries, particularly Poland.

Why particularly Poland? This is absolute non-sense. The country that - by far - is the most anti-German is the United Kingdom. The Polish are much more anti-Russian than anti-German.

well, watch this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/euro2008/article-1024469/Germany-star-Ballack-caught-decapitation-row-ahead-Poland-clash.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.253.111 (talk) 19:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't have to watch it, it's all over the media. But that's football. AND: Mentioning this shows how you don't understand the Polish. They have always admired the Germans, felt inferior to them, that's why they like to annoy them. They aren't Anti-German. I'd even say they are - if only in some ways - the most germanophile people in the world! A recent poll in Poland has shown that on a "popularity scale" from +3 to -3, Germany among Polish is at -0.05. I want to know the results from the UK, Netherlands, Switzerland!! Therefore, I've now deleted that faulty section.

oh, you're right the demand for decapitation is a true evidence of admiration —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.192.35 (talk) 13:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Anti-German sentiment in the Netherlands

I think the section on Anti-German sentiment in the Netherlands, which starts saying that ‘for centuries a feeling of animosity exists towards Germans among the Dutch.’ is much too imprecise, although a popular opinion. First of all, Germany as a single state, which it is today, did not exist in the 16th century; furthermore opinions swayed along with the wars the Dutch fought, or were based on a particular group, such as the Hannekemaaier (or in German: Hollandgänger) who were indeed depicted as being rude, stingy and stupid. For example, after the Boer wars in South Africa, Dutch opinion was much more anti-English than anti-German: the Dutch Queen at that time, Wilhelmina, actively tried to form an alliance against the English to help the Boers, who were felt to be strongly related to the Dutch (a feeling which was shared among many Dutch). After the end of the Boer war she did not marry an Englishman, which would have been inappropriate, but a German (and so did her daughter, Juliana, and her grand-daughter Beatrix). The German Emperor Wilhelm II was even granted asylum in the Netherlands (not wholeheartedly however). Also, with the rise of the German industry in the Ruhr area Rotterdam flourished, which led to much trade between the Netherlands and Germany. Of course, after WW II there was much resentment and hatred, but I think it is incorrect to extend this view before WW II in general. More about the political and trade relations between Germany & the Netherlands can be read in Dutch here: [1] --82.170.225.52 (talk) 10:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The whole section on supposed anti-German sentiments in the Netherlands is vastly exaggerated. Beyond some petty football rivalries and relatively good-natured humourous references to a neighbouring country (which exist everywhere - compare British/Irish relations for example), Dutch/German relations are fine. Opinion polls show Germany and the German people to be viewed by the Dutch in an overwhelmingly positive light. The most Germanophobic countries in Europe today are probably the UK, Poland, and the Czech Republic - and in the latter two such sentiments have been in decline over the past couple of years.

The article makes it sound as if there is a deeply entrenched Germanophobia running through Dutch society, which is simply nonsense. I'd say rewrite of scrap that bit of the article. Any other opinions on this? Vlaflipje1982 (talk) 13:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I was also overwhelmed by the way this article depicts how Dutch people think of Germans today. I'm Dutch and have never met anyone who discriminates Germans. What I mostly heard while living at home was that they made good quality products and love beer, and have a strict law system. That's it. Of course there are jokes. 188.102.159.140 (talk) 09:23, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Cleaning up some small portion

1.Inflation was certainly not caused by anti-German sentiment. This is I think obvious. 2. Claims about "German lands" in Poland and Lithuania are contradictory to themselfs. A carefull look will show that everywhere mentioned Germans were minority. As to Plebiscites-areas where Germans voted for Germany stayed with it, where Poles voted for Poland in certain cases went to Poland in others to Germany. 3. Polish terrorist acts is obviously POV-ed and I wonder where does the language come from... --Molobo (talk) 12:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Reverted. Don't feed the trolls -- Matthead  Discuß   23:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Neutral point of view

In the United States between 1917-18, German-American schools and newspapers by the thousands were forced to permanently close. In cities and towns across the nation, libraries burned their German-language books in public burnings. The officials of German-named towns that had been founded by German-Americans were intimidated by county, state, and federal government officials into anglicizing their names, and into destroying all traces of their German heritage. In cities across the United States, German-sounding street names were banned. Many families with a German-sounding last name changed their surname. The vast majority of German-Americans, however, were loyal to their adopted country and thousands of them served in the United States military.

I would strongly suggest to rephrase this section in a more neutral way. The term loyal is merely a value judgement, and reflects the anglo-american view of the time. The last part makes it look as if these americans of german origin were in fact the offenders. Considering everything laid out before this gives an rather odd impression of the facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.85.246.57 (talk) 10:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

France

Currently in the article, you would think that Britain and Russia are the main basis of "Germanophobic" sentiment. Yet people like J. R. R. Tolkien were able to "blend in" to the cultural realm of what is "British" without question. Historically Germanophobia from France, far, far exceedes either of those two. Intellectual, cultural and political (people like Maurras seem to have resented Germany almost as much as he resented Jews). There is also the Alsace Question and other such things tied in, but no section is dedicated to it at all. - Yorkshirian (talk) 05:39, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

True. German-France agression and hate was the cause of 3 major wars. Also I vote this article be scheduled for rapid deletion. CJ DUB (talk) 15:55, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Czech Republic

I miss some comments about the Czech point of view. There are wide spread germanophobic sentiments within the main part of Czech population, not only as a result of living under Habsburg rule, problems with Sudeten Germans, World War II and East German troops taking part in supressing Prague spring in 1968 but also nowadays with Germans as main visitors of prostitutes along Czech-German border. --91.16.116.44 (talk) 09:06, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

East German Troops are not taking part in supressing the Prague spring, and Habsburg was Austria-Hungary, not Germany. And the increasing prostitution is mainly a problem of the Czech society and not caused by Germans. --84.187.66.242 (talk) 23:04, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of whether it is rational (phobias are by definition not rational), these are related factors, I don't think you should object to it. Whether these problems are actually "caused" by Germans or not have no bearing on the sentiment, as long as Czechs "believe" that they are caused by the Germans, the resentment will be there. 220.255.2.131 (talk) 20:01, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

pics

Per WP:Bold i have removed a section that offers nothing to the article, is not even on topic and furthermore is wrong on so many levels. Per the edit comment, here are the removed pics.

British Empire Union poster

Polish poster, probably originating from a nationalist organization, claiming large parts of Germany and Czechoslovakia

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.0.3 (talk) 10:43, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Source

An editor has been adding a newspaper source to the article, yet the online archive of the newspaper contains no article or any article related to the subject. I request the editor to deliver the source to prevent falsification of information. Bram.ellis (talk) 18:12, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Conspicuous by its absence

This article is missing the most obvious anti-German propaganda of all time. The myth of the "Holocaust". The article clearly shows outlandish anti-German propaganda during the First World War, and that that was just Anti-German sentiment. But similar (and even more outlandish) propaganda during the Second World War is not included? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheamus McDonald (talk • contribs) 14:05, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

This article should include a section "German self-hatred"

IMHO to be complete this article should include a section about the German self-hatred which can be found especially among the left-wing in Germany. Like it says here: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Sir_Arthur_Harris,_1st_Baronet#Legacy "Phrases like "Bomber-Harris, do it again!" and "Bomber-Harris Superstar - Thanks from the red Antifa" are popular slogans among the so called "Anti-Germans" which is a political movement in Germany and Austria." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.34.176.18 (talk) 04:50, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

No, they are a non-perceived minority and don't reflect any known sentiment at large. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.118.169.111 (talk) 18:51, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

This is not true. The Antifa has so much power, that they can gate-crash lectures of former prime ministers, as it happened on 05.12.2012 in the University of Bremen. See the link to tv-report of "Radio Bremen", which was/is the only media reporting about the incident. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui3KE-rmLFI&feature=player_embedded Sincerly, Chris — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.156.64.183 (talk) 09:57, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Austria

Missing the definition of special sentiments among Austrians towards Germany after WWII. On the one hand there are still heavy sympathizers (schlagende Burschenschafter), on the other hand a majority of Austrians is openly slagging about Germany and the "Piefkes" (see sports, etc.). Please consider! --91.113.90.246 (talk) 11:04, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Fawlty Towers

No mention of the 'Germans' episode from Fawlty Towers! A quote from this comedy show: "Don't mention the war" has become a common catch-phrase here in the UK. Colin4C 19:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC) NO —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.62.215.169 (talk) 14:10, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia should talk about world renowned shows not local quarrels —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.62.215.169 (talk) 14:11, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

That's just an English obsession. It's only funny in England. No one else cares. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.118.169.111 (talk) 18:49, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I really think that the UK should be mentioned in the "contemporary Europe" section. It is one of the countries where germans openly get vioated and mobbed as a group and individuals both in media and everyday life. 87.243.151.162 (talk) 07:21, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Sources would be helpful in assessing the validity of your claims. Parisstreatham (talk) 13:49, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Liberty measles?

I am very skeptical this happened. I did a search through the contents of http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-15-508098-0, the book cited for this "fact", and there were no results for "liberty measles". The only results for "measles" are unrelated to Germany or WW1. IMO, some editor fabricated this and it should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:7:2280:BA00:A0E2:B4E6:6A53:9227 (talk) 19:11, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

on February 8, 1918, the New York Times reported that "an epidemic of liberty measles" had arisen at the Military Academy at West Point. Rjensen (talk) 22:18, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The Netherlands

I want to explain my recent edits concerning the book Only in Holland, Only the Dutch. As wikipedia clearly is an encyclopedia I don't think this book belongs in a quite important article. Marc Resch is not an expert on current Dutch life like is claimed by Rjensen. He's merely an expat who happens to have written a book. Neither he nor his website claims he's an expert. Neither does amazon on his book page. We need to find better source that research anti german sentiment in the Netherlands IMHO. In this review from the dutch monthly HP/de tijd there are some things listed you wouldn't find in books used on wikipedia, I'll translate them myself: "Firstly you can think he's clearly ironic, this presumption falls apart when reading the author learned German because Dutch is a mix of German and English. Other idiotic observations: except for people from countryside, all Dutch speak English, German, French and, Spanish and Indonesian too." "Dutch parents encourage their children to have sex very early . Rjensen what do you think?Gati123 (talk) 10:10, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Israel

"Many Israelis took up the Soviet claims made in the early years of the Cold War that West Germany was "a fascist state" in which ex-Nazis held key positions."

This is not a claim. This is the truth. East Germany had more radical denazification due to the Soviet Union, while hardly anyone cared that ex-Nazis didn't need to give up their positions in West Germany. --2.245.221.75 (talk) 13:04, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Lead

The WP:Lead is not remotely a summary. Indeed the second of its two paragraphs is rather a general statement about the pre-history of the body of the article. --P64 (talk) 17:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Culture and language not the same

I would question that statement that "However, throughout Eastern Europe, Jews spoke Yiddish, and wrote it in Hebrew script, thus keeping their distance from German culture". Language is not the same as culture, or at most only a small part of it.Royalcourtier (talk) 00:25, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Hugo Young and Paul Joyce

British public people, whether journalists or politicians, are more prepared to demonise the Germans than any other people I know are prepared to vilify any other nation I have heard of, with the possible exception of Arabs and Jews."

 —Hugo Young, The Guardian < ref>"British perceptions of Germany". Paul Joyce German Course. Retrieved 2008-06-28.</ref>

This quotation appeared a the head of Contemporary Europe (now section 7) without integration in the text. It is not dated and it doesn't fit the later paragraph about German complaints (now section 7.1 lead) unless Hugo Young is German.

The source is Paul Joyce German Course, University of Portsmouth (UK). We cite a 2008 version; here is a 2010 version archived 2011-01-02. Why learn German? 1. British perceptions of Germany. The entire page is interesting and --while he quotes Young and others without explicit citation (top)-- "Paul Joyce" links five online articles at bottom.

As for Hugo Young, the quotation cannot be used here without providing some context as well as a source. For one, is he our source or our illustration?

--P64 (talk) 17:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Anti German Sentiment in Poland

In present Poland anti-German sentiment is quite low, exceptions admitted. Hundreds of thousands of Poles have worked in Germany, many stayed there. When questioned about their feelings towards Germans most Poles reply that, yes, there was a war and there were war crimes, but the Russians were much worse, In the Czech Republic however, anti-German feeling is still rife, although the Czechs suffered much less in WW II compared to Poles. Ontologix (talk) 05:19, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

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Title

Why is this "Anti-German sentiment", but then there is Francophobia? Why not Anti-French Sentiment? Or Germanophobia? Sounds like a biased POV racist thing to me. By eliminating the word "Germanophobia" and putting it into a phrase, you essentially pretend like discrimination against Germans is not a real thing.2001:558:6012:5A:565:ABEA:FCDE:5BBD (talk) 00:46, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

What about Germanophobia against Donald Trump?

People calling him "Drumpf"? 71.173.25.209 (talk) 15:27, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Unless you can find sources stating that it's Germanophobia to call him as such, I don't think it's acceptable to add it on. Verified Cactus (talk) 20:24, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

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Anti-German bias

There is still too much Anti-German bias in this article, lol. Problem is that some of the content is based on info that was established with a clear Anti-German sentiment in mind. --105.12.248.131 (talk) 17:16, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

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Germanophobia is perjorative

Phobias are irrational fears, so presenting "Germanophobia" as a synonym for "Anti-German sentiment" implies that anti-German sentiment can never be rational. I thought this was a simple mistake and considered ways to eliminate "Germanophobia" or move it to a subsection on criticisms of anti-German sentiment, but the equivalence is too well woven into the entire article, to the point that I'd call it an agenda.

Dprovan (talk) 18:53, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Not true--the word resembles the medical term phobia but has a different meaning--most important is usage: and leading scholars in major journals use the term to precisely describe historical events: 1) "Definition of Germanophobia by Merriam-Webster Dictionary 2018" = an intense dislike or fear of Germany and German characteristics, customs, and governmental activities; 2) article title: "British Historians, the war guilt issue, and post-war germanophobia" by DC Watt in The Historical Journal 1993; 3) "During the First World War Britain became gripped with a Germanophobic hatred in which both government and the press played a central role" from International Encyclopedia of the First World War (2014); 4) article title: "The British Protestant Theologians in the First World War: Germanophobia Unleashed" in Harvard theological review 1984; 5) 1500+ additional cites from scholarly books and articles at https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C27&q=Germanophobia&btnG= Rjensen (talk) 21:28, 26 October 2018 (UTC)s

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Rota

This revert giving as a rationale a very odd and un-sourced comparison (WP:OR) between the late 19th/early-20th century and events of WWII and the Holocaust, is contradicted by several reputable sources that clearly and prominently refer to Rota (poem) anti-German nature and use:

1. "Rota also... It was written in the ninteenth century to mobilize the nation against the Prussian oppressors. Now, despite its "anacrhonism" and nationalistic overtones, the communist activists found that the talk about "the Germans" who "shall not spit in our face" had useful contemporary relevance - its mandatory singing became part of the morning and evening "apel" starting May 30, 1943. As with the anti-German rhetoric in Pravda, the demonization of the Germans helped generate hatred and a fighting spirit.
2. "The political Right rejected "My, Pierwsza Brygada" as a partisan anthem, and was unenthusiastic about "Jeszcze Polska", preferrent the chant "Rota Konopnicka", which originated in western Poland and was closely associated with Polish nationalism's anti-German struggles in the late nineteenth centry".
3. "one of the best known patriotic, and anti-German, poems (and songs) in the Polish heritage.... Even though used by Communist government to keep up anti-German sentiments in Poland, the song was also sung in Polish churches. It is more than likely to be known by virtually every Pole educated at least partly in Communist Poland. The first line of one of the stanzs of Rota is: "Nie bedzi Niemiec plul nam w twarz" ("The German will not spit in our face").
4. "Ceremonies concluded with a Holy Mass and the singing of "Rota" (The Pledge), a Polish nationalist song with strong anti-German undertones". (in the context 1947 ceremony at Auschwitz - which also failed to mention Jewish victims there).
5. "In Cracow on 15 July 1910 the Grunwalk Monument.... who sung Rota, a poem in the form of an oath and anti-German anthem"
6. "Anti-German feeling manifested itself on the popular level by the singing of "Rota", a song of anti-German defiance dating from turn-of-the-century Prussian Poland that includes the line "The Germans will not spit in our faces any more"; it was so frequently in the 1930s that is acquired for some the status of a second national anthem. Anti-German feeling also continued to find exprression in acts of violence against the minority and its property..
7. "Such hopes were not uncommon, particularly in the Russian partition, and have led to strongly anti-German tones in Polish literature, most characteristic among them being ... "Krzyzacy" ... and the poem "Rota" (1908) by Maria Konopnicka (1842-1910), which with music added became an unofficial hymn of Polish nationalism.".

References

It would seem that beyond what is self-evident in the spiteful lyrics ("The German won't spit in our face,") - academic WP:RSes generally refer to its anti-German character and its use in driving up anti-German sentiment.Icewhiz (talk) 08:03, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Will you please stop using inflammatory and provocative rhetoric like "spiteful lyrics"? Or better yet provide sources that these are "spiteful" or "hateful"? And while the song clearly opposes forced Germanization that does not make it "anti-German sentiment" anymore than John Brown's Body is "anti-White" or something. Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:27, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

While your opinion is interesting - I cited seven reliable academic texts that disagree - clearly referring to this as anti-German.Besides pre-WWII usage and recent usage, this was used to demonize the Germans in WWII, and by the Polish communist governments "to keep up anti-German sentiments in Poland". Are you contesting the reliability of these sources?Icewhiz (talk) 08:41, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

References

Your opinion is interesting as well, unfortunately it relies on a misrepresentation of sources, and since it purposefully avoids the context in which the poem was written, it engages in POV false equivocation. Actually, wait... no, it's not that interesting. It's just WP:TENDENTIOUS.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:49, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

The anti-German context in which this was written is indeed addressed by some of the sources I cited and quote above. Other sources focus on the subsequent use of this anti-German poem. Please point out specifically which source was misrepresented (and how). If you are contesting the reliability of any particular source - please point it out. I provided quotes above as well as in-line citations for each sentence I added here - do be specific please.Icewhiz (talk) 08:55, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Absent a concrete challenge on the reliability of the multitude of sources calling this anti-German or specifics on what was allegedly misrepresented - I intend to restore the text. Specifics please.Icewhiz (talk) 18:08, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

One more time. Your edit misrepresents and cherry picks sources. It ignores the context in which the poem was written - brutal, forced Germanization attempts of Polish speakers in the Prussian partition. For you to try to include this info without this context is so insanely over-the-top POV and tendentious that it's yet another example of why you have no business editing Poland related topics.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:56, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

And despite repeated requests, you have yet to provide a single source for your repeated assertion that this poem's lyrics are "hateful". Absence such a source, it's hard to see your claims to that effect as anything other than bad faithed, calculated, attempts at provocation.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:57, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

If you wish to add anti-Germanisation as well (present in some, but not all, of the sources) - I am not opposed. The text introduced to the article does not contain "hateful", and is directly supported by language in cited academic sources. Per this paper by Andrzej Romanowski (which we shouldn't be using in the article per WP:NOENG, as English sources are available), following an ugly episode in which a Polish headmaster kicked a German schoolboy to the ground following his refusal to sing the Rota, Felix Calonder (Swiss national, League of Nations appointed chairman of the mixed commission) determined in an advisory that Rota should be banned from schools in the area - "Nie da się [...] pogodzić z duchem K onw encji Genew skiej, jeżeli w szkołach Górnego Śląska zarządza się lub toleruje śpiew anie pieśni w yrażających uczucie zem sty, nienaw iści lub pogardy dla narodowości jednej z obu części, ludności." (google translate: "It is impossible [...] to reconcile with the spirit of the Geneva Institute, if Upper Silesian schools teach or tolerate singing songs that express feelings of evil, hate or contempt for the nationality of one of the two parts, the population"). An account of this is also present in "Volk, Staat, Gott!": die deutsche Minderheit in Polen und ihr Schulwesen 1918-1939 published by Harrassowitz Verlag.Icewhiz (talk) 08:26, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

"If you wish to add anti-Germanisation as well..." I wish to do no such thing, neither have I suggested it. Please stop it with the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. And your cherry picked example is completely irrelevant. I'm sure someone has done something wrong at some point while singing the Star Spangled Banner. So. Fucking. What? You've also omitted some key parts of the source regarding Colander's statement. Finally, given that your proposal to ban Polish sources from Poland related articles (how come no one ever proposes banning, I don't know, French sources from France related articles, or German sources from Germany related articles? Says a lot) is failing miserably at WP:ARBCOM, can you please drop the little line about WP:NOENG and your continued and repeated misrepresentation of that policy, with which you persist despite the fact that your error has been pointed out to you repeatedly, and despite the fact that nobody agrees with you?

And let's get this clear - you have NO sources which say the lyrics to this song are "hateful", right? So why did you repeat that assertion so many times when it was completely unnecessary? Hell, you even tried to insinuate in a shameful and shameless "blame the victim" fashion, that not wishing to be spit upon was "hateful".Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:43, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

WP:NOENG is Wikipedia policy and has us preferring English language sources - which are available in this case (some of which were written by authors based in Poland). We could perhaps include the kicking of the schoolboy and Colander's subsequent advisory on banning Rota from schools due to it expressing "feelings of evil, hate or contempt" based on the Polish and German language sources. Comparing this anti-German song (referred to as such by multiple academic sources in English) to the Star Spangled Banner (which unlike the Rota, is not associated with violence against an ethnic minority) is really out of place, and really irrelevant.Icewhiz (talk) 08:51, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

As for "hateful" - this book by Patryk Babiracki, published by University of North Caroline Press contrasts Rota with anti-German invective in Pravda, saying that ""the demonization of the Germans helped generate hatred and a fighting spirit".Icewhiz (talk) 10:11, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Rudolph Rummel estimated that 1,585,000 Germans were killed in Poland and another 197,000 Germans were killed in Czechoslovakia

Why do you quote Rummel, if there are many other sources? The example of Czechoslovakia shows his inflation of errors.

Rummel's method was (minimal value+maximal value)/2 or mor egenerally (Sum of speculations)/(number of speculations). It's not exactly academic.Xx236 (talk) 11:14, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

The contexts of German genocide

I have added German people murdered millions of people during WWII. It made families and friends of the victims anti-German. Lack of the basic information makes the section biased - poor Germans are hated by evil people.Xx236 (talk) 11:18, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Flight and expulsion of Germans

The section is extremely biased, it accuses Poland and Czechoslovakia. The expulsions were decided in Potsdam, not by Poland or Czechoslovakia. Germans run away or were expelled from many countries, why two of them are listed?Xx236 (talk) 07:07, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Israel allegedly in Central Europe

Before the rise of Hitler and the NSDAP (1920s to 1933), many but not all Central and Eastern European Jews - the Jews were Czechoslovak, Polish, Hungarian citizens. Xx236 (talk) 08:57, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Prior to 1918 - there were no Czechoslovak or Polish citizens. The stmt that central-eastern European Jews (Ashkenazi Jews) were generally more Germanophile than the non-German Slavic populations is generally correct - prior to the Holocaust (German being a regional Lingua franca of sorts, closely connected to the Yiddish vernacular spoken as a mother tongue by many Jews, Jews generally travelling between communities in the area, and with many Jewish communities located in towns and cities (as opposed to villages) where Ostsiedlung were). During the pre-state period, Ashkenazi Jews in Palestine mainly followed Ashkenazi Jewish general opinion - with the added exception that Imperial Germany was somewhat supportive of the Jewish cause in Palestine (see Arthur Menachem Hantke and the  5 January 1918 declaration by Freiherr Axel von dem Bussche-Haddenhausen, as well as intervention in Tel Aviv and Jaffa deportation). That being said - the whole section here is uncited. There is some relevance in that Ashkenazi Jews (in Israel and outside of Israel) were mildly favorable to Germans prior to 1933 and the subsequent Holocaust - and almost entirely dis-favorable afterwards. What this whole section really needs is actual cited sources. Icewhiz (talk) 09:29, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

"the role of Germans as the primary perpetrators of the Holocaust"

The Germans murdered more Slavs than Jews. This crime should be mentioned.Xx236 (talk) 06:41, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

RfC: Rota

Should the contents in this diff be included in the article:

The anti-German poem Rota,[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] was proposed in the 1920 as the national anthem by the Polish right which opposed the Józef Piłsudski government.[2] In the 1930s amidst anti-German violence against the German minority, Rota was sung so frequently that some considered it the second national anthem.[6] During World War II, the Communists used Rota to demonize the German enemy and the song was made the official anthem the 1st Tadeusz Kościuszko Infantry Division.[1] Rota is taught at Polish schools, and despite its use by the communist governments to drive up anti-German feelings in Poland it was also sung in Polish churches. Almost every Polish person educated during the communist period is familiar with the song.[3] It is the official anthem of the Polish People's Party. In the beginning of ceremonies by self-professed "patriotic" movements, such as the All-Polish Youth, Rota is sung.[5]

Please indicate Yes, No, or something else - with a rationale. Icewhiz (talk) 09:08, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

text with references

The anti-German poem Rota, was proposed in the 1920 as the national anthem by the Polish right which opposed the Józef Piłsudski government. In the 1930s amidst anti-German violence against the German minority, Rota was sung so frequently that some considered it the second national anthem. During World War II, the Communists used Rota to demonize the German enemy and the song was made the official anthem the 1st Tadeusz Kościuszko Infantry Division. Rota is taught at Polish schools, and despite its use by the communist governments to drive up anti-German feelings in Poland it was also sung in Polish churches. Almost every Polish person educated during the communist period is familiar with the song. It is the official anthem of the Polish People's Party. In the beginning of ceremonies by self-professed "patriotic" movements, such as the All-Polish Youth, Rota is sung.

References

Survey

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• No - In the 1930s amidst anti-German violence against the German minority - you apparently don't know history. 1933 in Germany, "Mein Kampf"? NSDAP?Xx236 (talk) 11:06, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

  This is what the source says. Note that in 1921 Polish mobs attacks Germans and Jews in Ostrowo and Bydgoszcz.[2][3] Attacks in 1933 were also directed at the German minority party in Poland and the offices of the anti-Nazi Deutsche Rundschau.[4] The abominable Nazi party in Germany does not excuse ethnic violence against the German minority in Poland. Icewhiz (talk) 11:39, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

in 1921 as an example of In the 1930s. This must be a joke.Xx236 (talk) 08:59, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• Yes it should be mentioned, but not as written above. I think the context of why it was written should be included. Keep in mind this article is specifically about anti-German sentiment, not about the song. Given that only one verse is apparently anti-German (and pretty mildly at that), if all the times the song has been used are going to be mentioned, I think the sources need to be very clear that a certain use is anti-German. "During World War II, the Communists used Rota to demonize the German enemy" --> well sourced and clear instance of anti-Germanism. "Rota is taught at Polish schools" --> so... is it taught to encourage schoolchildren to be anti-German (as implied), or just as a folk song? The source given doesn't mention schools, and it refers to the poem as "patriotic, and anti-German", not simply as "anti-German". I can think of a number of songs where some verses are ignored now – are all four verses of Rota always sung? Ivar the Boneful (talk) 12:00, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

  There are various variants. The first ("enemy" or "foe") and second ("Teutonic") verse refer to Germans as well. In regards to "source given doesn't mention schools" - see cited book, page 38, top paragraph - "has been taught at schools ever since Poland regained its independence. Even though used by Communist governments to keep up anti-German sentiments in Poland, the song was also sung in Polish churches". Icewhiz (talk) 06:16, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• No - UNDUE, POV, and WP:TENDENTIOUS. There's lots of songs from lots of countries that are written for lots of reasons and sometimes some of them are used by some people in some way. So fucking what? Icewhiz is once again misrepresenting and cherry picking sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:13, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
• Yes. Un-sourced opinion above, laced with profanity, asserting some misrepresentation (when the cited sources are all available above) should be disregarded. A multitude of cited sourced refer to this song as anti-German - they explicitly say "anti-German". There is also a lesser known anti-Russian version of this song as well - with various instances of German turned into Russian / Soviet - "Sowiecka zawierucha" (Soviet storm) [5][6] - showing the targeted nationality can be changed. Sources describe many ugly uses of this song throughout the past century. Following a 1925 incident in which a German schoolboy (in a school with a German department) was kicked to the ground by the headmaster and ordered to sing the "Rota", League of Nations affiliated mixed commission president Felix Calonder issued an advisory ruling banning the Rota from schools in Silesia ("songs that express feelings of evil, hate or contempt for the nationality of one of the two parts") - as a violation of article 133 of the 1922 Geneva accord (Polish source, German source). The song is mentioned in the context of anti-minority violence in the 1930s.[7]. Used by communist Polish troops in WWII: "[referring to Rota] As with the anti-German rhetoric in Pravda, the demonization of the Germans helped generate hatred and a fighting spirit"[8]. Later government sponsored hate mongering - "used by Communist governments to keep up anti-German sentiments in Poland".[9] And current use by the ultra-nationalist/fascist All-Polish Youth.[10] To sum-up, the anti-German character and use of this song are well-attested and described in WP:RS, amply passing WP:V and definitely WP:DUE some space in this article.Icewhiz (talk) 06:04, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Actually, since you started the RfC it's kind of disruptive for you to vote separately rather than just saying "as proposer". It's very disruptive for you to insist that a particular opinion "be discounted" simply because you disagree with it. And you are absolutely misrepresenting sources. Hell, there's a perfect example in this very comment. You quote the parts about Colander but omit other crucial quotes. In fact that sources literally lists dozens of instances in which the song was sung but you WP:CHERRYPICKed just one. The one that suits your POV. And even there, you omit the fact that Colander also "rejected the accusations by the Volksbund (the entity which objected to the song)" and "expressed respect for the song and its historical role". You also omit the author's words that "It's hard not to be surprised by the reaction in Poland" - i.e. the author thinks it perfectly understandable that Poles objected to Colander's statement that the song shouldn't be sung in schools. You also omit the part where the author indicates that Colander, being a foreigner (neither a Pole nor German) completely misunderstood the situation. This is an obnoxious twisting of underlying sources to pretend they say something they don't. It really is exactly the kind of WP:NOTHERE behavior that should lead to quick topic ban for you.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:52, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

This was but a one sentence summary, and the German language source seems to have a different POV take here - German source - though both sources agree on Colander's advisory banning this.Icewhiz (talk) 18:10, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

The RfC is worded neutrally so I think the nom has the right to vote... through a disclaimer might be nice, to what degree the text disputed here is of his authorship? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:58, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• No - I clicked on the sources that were given, and while I wasn't able to read all of them, I did get some of them, and what I read seems to frame the song as much more pro-Polish than anti-German. Yes there's one line that talks about not letting Germans spit in their faces but even that seems to be meant more as defiance by the Poles rather than aggression against Germans. In any case, the sources certainly do not support the paragraph as written. The paragraph does not even come close to neutral, based on the sources. Mike Winowicz (talk) 23:49, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
• Something else Some of the content discussed here should be in the article - but important considerations include NPOV/UNDUE, as the paragraph as worded above is very, very biased. There's no consensus IMHO the poem is anti-German, but it has been described as such and this should be discussed; my main issue here is that anti-Germanisation is not the same as anti-German, but I agree many sources desribe it as anti-German and this should be mentioned here - but NEUTRALLY, and the paragraph above sounds like taken from some anti-Polish neo-Nazi leaflet, missing only some claim that this was sung in 1945 when Germans where expelled from the disputed bordelands... I studied history of those times periods quite a lot and WTF, excuse me, is " In the 1930s amidst anti-German violence against the German minority"?? This is like something straight out of Nazi propaganda (as in, Hitler didn't invade Poland in '39, he intervened to protect German minority, and in response to Polish aggression... Operation Himmler, anyone?). The next sentence ("Rota was sung so frequently that some considered it the second national anthem.") is uncontroversial and of course fine, nobody disputes it. " During World War II, the Communists used Rota to demonize the German enemy and the song was made the official anthem the 1st Tadeusz Kościuszko Infantry Division" - demonize is not neutral, I'd just rewrite this to talk about Soviet anti-German propaganda. "Rota is taught at Polish schools, and despite its use by the communist governments to drive up anti-German feelings in Poland it was also sung in Polish churches". Again, this is a major POV issue, this sentence suggests that Polish schools teach anti-German sentiments. Idiotic. What's next, Polish school teach antisemitism because they cover the literary figure of pl:Jankiel from Pan Tadeusz? "Almost every Polish person educated during the communist period is familiar with the song" - not controversial, but inaccurate - I think since the song is still tough, this also applies to Polish people educated in post-communist times too. "It is the official anthem of the Polish People's Party." - sure, why not (source needed). " In the beginning of ceremonies by self-professed "patriotic" movements, such as the All-Polish Youth, Rota is sung." - yep, this can stay (suprised?); ideally boosted by some reliable sources saying how this song became popular in those groups. This should also be balanced by discussing other places Rota is sung at, as its not only the self-described patriots/nationalists who sing it. Few other tidbits: according to [11], Rota, sung as an official anthem in Gdansk for many decades, has been replaced by another song as a political gesture to Germany; and recently the city of Kalisz] had a big festival where several orchestras and thousands of people sung it ([12]). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:54, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
• No seems UNDUE, that there may be/have been animosity between Poles and Germans seems obvious, but to place so much emphasis on a nationalistic song appears disproportionate, given the breadth of the article subject. Pincrete (talk) 13:05, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
• No per WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. There's a difference between "Anti-Germanisation" and "Anti-German". Cherry-picking sources to demonize everything Polish seems to be Icewhiz's hobby here.--Darwinek (talk) 00:38, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
• Yes per sources, but contextualization would be needed, per Ivar the Boneful. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 13:13, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
• Something else. Rota is certainly anti-Germanisation, but there's a difference between that and being anti-German. And considering that you only need to alter three words of it (out of over a hundred) to make it anti-Soviet instead, as was sometimes done, the degree to which either of those is the main point (either of the song or as perceived by those who sing it), rather than being against oppression of Polishness in general, should surely be up for debate in reliable sources. That some purveyors of anti-Germanism in Poland have made use of the song is relevant; that there are differing points of view about whether Rota is anti-German is also relevant; but framing it as the above text does to focus on the song is tendentious. Double sharp (talk) 08:05, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Canvassing

There is also some blatantly inappropriate WP:CANVASSing going on here by Icewhiz. He's notified the following projects of this RfC: WikiProject Austria, WikiProject Prussia and WikiProject Germany. Now... what could possibly be missing from this list of canvassed projects about an RfC concerning a Polish song? What do those three have in common? Freakin' a. This is a blatant and obnoxious attempt to WP:GAME an RfC by canvassing projects which could reasonably be thought to support his position and purposefully avoiding an obvious project which would not. And this fits in with Icewhiz long standing pattern of WP:TENDENTIOUS editing and is frankly a good reason for a topic ban, regardless of what the outcome of the RfC is.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:22, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

I posted to all 4 listed WikiProjects, including WikiProject Discrimination, listed on this article talk page.Icewhiz (talk) 21:25, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

But not the obvious one, WikiProject Poland.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Nor to Wikipedia:WikiProject Songs which is perhaps of even greater topical relevance. My selection criteria was WikiProjects this page belongs to.Icewhiz (talk) 21:35, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Please don't pretend that you don't understand what the issue is. It only proves once again that you're editing in bad faith.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:42, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Posted [13][14] to both aforementioned Wikiproject talk pages.Icewhiz (talk) 06:09, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Extended discussion

Bund Jewish band performed Rota in pre-war Poland. This tradition will be continued. http://warszawa.wyborcza.pl/warszawa/1,54420,9930172,Zydzi_z_Gory_Kalwarii_grali__Rote___Bedzie_reaktywacja.html Xx236 (talk) 07:15, 30 April 2019 (UTC)