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Page move suggestion

I believe the page should be moved to Annie Turnbo Malone and Annie Malone changed as a redirect to that. Annie Turnbo didn't marry Malone until some time after she had become a successful businessman. Users have mentioned this in the past and adjusted the text of the article (I'm not sure these edits have been maintained and that is moot here). See these edits:

Let me know your thoughts.--DiamondRemley39 (talk) 16:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

--DiamondRemley39 (talk) 16:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Changing the title to Annie Turnbo Malone seems like a fine suggestion to me. From a cursory Google search, it seems like both "Annie Malone" and "Annie Turnbo Malone" are pretty equally used for article titles, but in the actual text in sources, "Annie Turnbo Malone" seems to be used more frequently. - Whisperjanes (talk) 19:55, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for chiming in! --DiamondRemley39 (talk) 12:45, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

I took out 2 sources on this article, which seemed to make up the some of the article's content. I only did this because both sources seemed to be in question of their reliability, and I think there are more reliable sources out there at the moment.

This organization seems to be a motivational speaker, business/diversity consultant. The source itself doesn't seem to have editorial oversight and seems very promotional, which makes it questionable at best.
  • "A Friend to All Mankind": Mrs. Annie Turnbo Malone and Poro College by John H. Whitfield
This book is self-published by someone who does not seem to be an established expert in this field (although I can't seem to find any information on the author), so it doesn't meet WP:SELFPUBLISH standards.

- Whisperjanes (talk) 02:53, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I've previewed some of the book on Amazon, and while I don't have issues with the content I was able to view, I wasn't able to see the bibliography. The author is doing interviews in wake of the release of Self Made, so perhaps we will learn more about who he is and any credentials or experience he may have. I was able to verify almost all of what it said from modern and contemporary secondary sources. I added his book to a "Further reading" section as that is less controversial than sourcing it. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 16:26, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Greetings. My name is John Whitfield and have undergraduate and graduate degrees in terms of academic qualifications. I am the author of A Friend to All Mankind. A larger question is why did it take sixty years to write this biography? I can’t debate the veracity of my work with someone who has not read my book and sumerely removed its reference. If you have any questions regarding my sources that’s fair but actions such as replacing actual authorities on the subject diminishes the quality of this site. WhitHist (talk) 05:34, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi @WhitHist:. Glad to see you on the talk page. I'm sorry if what I said above sounded harsh, but I was only following a Wiki policy when I took out that source.
When I'm speaking about "reliability" above, I am using the Wikipedia definition for reliability (please see WP:RELIABILITY). I don't mean to say that your source is not reliable in the traditional sense. It's just that Wikipedia has specific policies as to what types of sources can be used to verify information on its articles. For example, self-published sources are held to stricter standards than other sources, since anyone can self-publish. This means there's a policy about self-published sources (see WP:SELFPUB). It pretty much says self-published sources should not be used except in one scenario: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." If you have multiple other works in this subject area that have been published in reliable & independent publications, then this would be that scenario. However, I couldn't find any evidence of that online, so I used my best judgement. I hope you can see why such a policy on Wikipedia is important in general. - Whisperjanes (talk) 06:28, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
A few more things, @WhitHist:
1. Would you link us to your CV or other publicly available material that would allow further consideration of your status as an authority in this area? Bachelor's and master's degrees alone don't make an authority. Did the book grow out of a master's thesis that went through IRB?
2. I looked at your book when it was available for preview online (it doesn't seem to be any longer), but there were no footnotes and the bibliography, if there was one, was not included in the preview. That and the fact that it wasn't traditionally published by a company that might fact-check mean that it simply is not a viable option to be sourced in an encyclopedia. As an historian, I am sure you are aware of the importance of appropriate sourcing of claims. At the moment, there is better sourcing for 1869 (the other biography, which was traditionally published; the Dictionary of Missouri Biography. Even the Library of Congress goes with 1869. While they're not always correct, they are, at least in name, authoritative. I'll start a new section for discussion of the birthdate where you can post any evidence you have for 1877.
3. Please do not continue to change the birthdate until you have consensus here. This is known as edit warring and you can end up with official warnings on your talk page or even with a temporary ban from the site. We can all work together here, but please meet us halfway. Whisperjanes and I have been watching the Malone and Walker pages for the better part of a month to protect it from vandalism (including fan writing and hate writing) as well as fiction as history writing. If you have the answers, help make the article better -- with reliable secondary sources or by demonstrating that you are an authority on Malone, early 20th century entrepreneurship, women's history, Chicago or St. Louis history, or the experience of people in color.
Thanks, DiamondRemley39 (talk) 12:53, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Annie Malone wiki entry

I do not know who has contacted me regarding the changes I made regarding this subject. Are they owners of the or do they represent Wikipedia? Regardless, what is written on this page will not affect my scholarship or further research. Most of the information therein comes from a Poro booklet which was published in 1922, which is not cited anywhere. Fortunately, my Find a Grave entry on Mrs. Malone is correct so those who desire accuracy may visit there. WhitHist (talk) 13:54, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia, as far as I understand, does not have "owners". It's a foundation. We who have contacted you are volunteer Wikipedia editors. I won't speak for my fellow editor, but I work on this page because I am interested in local and women's history. As a Find a Grave contributor myself, it behooves me to remind you that while you may have created and you manage this one memorial, it is not yours; it belongs to Find a Grave, which is owned by Ancestry. Are you saying that most Malone scholarship is based on a Poro booklet? Is it something you have access to and could upload?
No one thinks a Wikipedia article should affect your future research. You seem interested in having your research included here. Give us the sources for the information in your book and we can see if changes can be made. --DiamondRemley39 (talk) 14:37, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Year of birth

Instead of edit warring, let's discuss the date of birth here in a new section. While Wikipedia relies on references from reliable secondary sources, scrutiny may be needed here.

1869 birthdate:

1877 birthdate:

  • "Annie Minerva Turnbo Malone". Find a Grave. Retrieved 2020-04-15.(FG is notoriously inaccurate and this memorial doesn't even picture her stone)

These lists are not at all exhaustive! I'm not going to spend an hour listing every reference to birth in either year, but if you want to, knock yourself out and edit the above.

Census records from 1870s or 1880s would shed some light. I wouldn't even throw out a 1900 appearance, though it would be better for it to be paired with an earlier census. --DiamondRemley39 (talk) 13:07, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Greetings. I believe that I can discuss this with you now. First, my sole interest in this matter derives from the unfortunate fact that many of my people might consider this site, for whatever reason, as an authority on the life of Mrs. Malone and the history of Poro College. I have found,however, that quite a number of on-line sites including audio presentations have used the year 1877 as the birth year for Mrs. Malone.
While, of course,personal preference may play a part it is more likely that the source documented in my book was used. I have 30 rears as a professional genealogist and reasesrch which is why there is considerable genealogical material documented on all of the principal persons in my book and some of the lesser ones such as Mrs. C.J. Walker which is included, Thank you for your search suggestions but my methods which would seem simple they are most assuredly not.
For the purpose of brevity. the earlier an individual is found on the US Census the more accurate for legal use line entry will be. The earliest such example for Miss Annie Turnbo is to be found on the 1900 US Census, Metropolis City,,Massac County,, Illinois, Enumeration District 0054, page 4. :On that line you will find August 1877 given for her birth.
After that I examine all relevant family and associated personal birth dates for comparison and timeline accuracy.
I made the corrections on Ancestry in 2011 which was two years after I had found it and a year after my presentation on her life at ASALH. Here is an easy one. Mrs. Malone was married on June 25,1902. The Chicago Public Library has the record in the Robert O. French Papers. I found the paper original in the St. Louis city archives over a decade ago. On your page the references are incorrect as well as the sources claimed. But since my book is as you say self-published or unveted by the “right” people it is unacceptable. After my second edition is, hopefully, completed this year some of the gaps found in the fictional movie Self Made will be filled. WhitHist (talk) 15:41, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
Yes, the earlier the census record, the more likely it is accurate. Is there documentation of Malone in the 1880 census, when she was a minor?
When you say that you made corrections on Ancestry, do you mean that you suggested edits for the transcribed census records, or do you mean that you edited a tree, or something else?
Thank you for pointing out what I assume is an inconsistency with Malone and Pope divorcing IN 1907 rather than BY 1907 as the source says. I corrected that. I did not see a mistake with the other source. What was it? Regarding the date of that marriage: Wikipedia relies on secondary sources that are retrievable either online or offline, not primary sources. I will do further work to see if I can find some way to cite the 1902 date here. I will go look into the issue of birth and marriage and see what I turn up. At the least we may be able to note that the date of birth is contested with a note. Please provide other info/proofs if you have them.
Finally, two more things. First, this is not "our" page. This is not anyone's page... though it's kind of everyone's page. This is a Wikipedia page. Secondly, please do not put words in our mouths. No one but you said your book had to be vetted by the "right" people. Consider that your book was self-published and not footnoted on the pages people can see, that information about you as a researcher was scant (it looks like you've been doing some press lately, so that's changed), and that the information in question contradicts most of what has been published before.
Thank you for responding and have a nice day. --DiamondRemley39 (talk) 17:16, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
@WhitHist: I dug into census records and found:
  1. 1870 census: Her brother John is born about 1869--and she isn't on the page. One strike against 1869 birth.
  2. 1880 census: Couldn't find her. No 1890 record (lost in fire). These are my biggest concerns--the records most likely to have her birth correct are unavailable. I have not seen her as a minor in a census record.
  3. 1900 census: Date of birth given as in August 1877. But her brother is several years younger than he should be. Likely human error, but noted.
  4. 1910 census: Age given as 30, which is about 3 years off from 1877 or 11 years off from 1869.
  5. 1920 census: Age given as 40, which is about 3 years off from 1877 or 11 years off from 1869.
  6. 1930 census: Age given as 43, which is about 10 years off from 1877 or 18 years off from 1869. This is not a huge conflict with the previous--either someone lied about her age or the census taker recorded it incorrectly. In my opinion, it lines up with 1900 just as well as the two previous census ages because it shows that a round number was shaved off instead of three years.
  7. 1940 census: Couldn't find her. 1950 is not yet available.
I didn't look into other records because death records are notoriously incorrect (the person with the answers can't answer) and marriage records may or may not be (people used to lie about their ages at time of marriage, whether they needed to or not).
@Whisperjanes: It seems like there may be enough primary source information and vouching from her biographer to add that the date of birth is disputed and include the alt. date with a note. What do you think? DiamondRemley39 (talk) 13:00, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Hello all. Good job. Miss Turnbo and her family were in transit to Metropolis City in 1880 and were probably missed in the Census count. As regards the.adult ages given I am afraid that cultural mores concerning a lady’s age may have influenced the reporting. I will state also that there were only three Censuses in American history where month or quarter and year of birth were noted; 1890 (fire and water damage), 1900, and1960. Incidentally, the month and year of birth, given and accepted, for Madam Walker is also taken from the 1900 Census; there could be no other source, it’s a genealogical thing. Keep up the discussion and I believe you will understand more. I am still learning. WhitHist (talk) 16:47, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

I might also add that you are largely correct about death records. In fact, the only record for 1869 is her death certificate which found its way into the obituary and the press. WhitHist (talk) 19:05, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

This is all really interesting (I'm definitely learning a lot about how birth dates are sometimes incorrectly recorded, especially with women). @DiamondRemley39: and @WhitHist: thanks for all of your research! I definitely think it is worth including both the 1869 and 1877 birth dates, as long as these things are also added: 1.) A citation to the 1900 census and 2.) A note about how multiple censuses and the death certificates state (or imply) different dates. If there is a secondary reliable source that states the 1877 date, that would make that date's verifiability even stronger, but for now, I think there are definitely enough primary sources that point to the 1869 date being questionable (so I don't think we should leave it the on its own).
I don't think I've actually added a note to a Wiki article before, but it looks like Template:Refn might be the best to use in this case (since it can also include a citation (or possibly multiple citations?) attached to a note). Different options/info for adding a note can be found at MOS:NOTES. - Whisperjanes (talk) 23:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

The only other sources, of a.legal nature would be a notarized family bible record, a dated insurance policy, or an affidavit signed by someone who was present at her birth. So you see we are left with her 1877 birth. I can understand the reticence at overturning a state historical society’s findings but, and I know how this is done, but if I was to establish a date of birth in court I would offer the 1900 Census and her passport dated August 9th and would likely prevail against a death certificate. On that the defense rests. WhitHist (talk) 03:20, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not sure if I wrote clearly enough! In summary of my long reply above: I agree with adding the 1877 birth date. I just think we should probably mention the 1869 birth date as well, along with a note about the discrepancies of her recorded birth (especially for anyone who might want to research further into her birth). Something like: "Malone was born in either 1869 or 1877", or near the top: "(August 9, 1869 or 1877 – May 10, 1957)", along with inline citations.
Also... this just occurred to me, but aren't censuses usually self-reported? I really wish there was a way to see her birth certificate, but oh well, we can only work with what we have! - Whisperjanes (talk) 05:20, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
You're good, Whisperjanes. Sorry for my belated response. I saw your message but got distracted on some other Wiki fronts this past week. I also got to thinking that I might try to get the Library of Congress to update her record based on the census information--but I don't know when they'll be fully back at work, so that might take a while!
Yes, census records are self-reported, and sometimes reported by someone other than the self... better hope the person giving the info to the census taker knows a thing or two about you!... I'm no expert, but I don't think I've seen a birth certificate before 1900, which is around when the federal government started requiring the keeping of vital records. Illinois might have done them earlier, but I'm guessing not by much. I also thought of another avenue and quickly turned around: What I know of newspapers and small towns of this time and what very little African American genealogy I have done (one family, and much later) suggests there would be no mention of her birth in a newspaper, and from what I've seen in my own experience that, even if her birth had somehow been covered, there might not be mention of her name, just that a girl was born to her parents. Again, I doubt newspaper coverage happened with any Turnbo family births and probably(?) none of the family's other activities, either... I know little of county records and most of my research in Illinois in this time period (which I've done for my own family) has led to surprisingly little... In short, as her biographer has said, I doubt we'd get anything better than a census for Malone's, unless there is some record of her being in high school, which the article says she attended. An appearance in a class photo or on a roster or something would help determine the likelihood of 1877 over 1869. Or a family Bible, as WhitHist mentioned above, but for all I've heard of Bibles being good sources, they are not very common, at least in coverage of my supposedly Bible-enthusiast ancestral stock... I would think the Turnbo family, just coming out of slavery and, I assume, into literacy and property ownership, would be not very likely to have one in 1877 (and quite unlikely to in 1869). But that's my assumption. It could be that there was one that either does not survive today or followed another line of descendants who did not make it public. I'm sure you have been down all of these roads, WhitHist, but please weigh in to correct me on any of my brainstorming or just educate us (well, at least me) in general, if you like.
Thanks for the info on how to add notes, Whisperjanes! I will start working on inline citations in the next day or two-- and add census roll info. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 02:42, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

I am pleased that at least Mrs. Malone’s birth year will be documented on this site. I mentioned the other possibilities for birth to demonstrate the importance of the Census report. I can, however, offer secondary sources for events already mentioned on this site. This would include marriage date and more information on personal life. Some of the references attributed on the site do not have the information. Talk to you later. WhitHist (talk) 00:52, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Ohh, I see now about why you were mentioning the other documents. And any secondary sources you can add to the article would be greatly appreciated, WhitHist! Thanks for all your work so far, both of you :) - Whisperjanes (talk) 02:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
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