Talk:Anglo-Irish big house
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This needs to go
[edit]"The Anglo-Irish occupied a social space where they were in Ireland yet not fully Irish, and English in manner and origin yet far removed from life in England."
This is not entirely accurate. The Anglo-Irish as a social class consisted of some who were English in origin, some who were Irish in origin, and many who were mixed Irish-English. As a matter of fact, one of the more palatial country houses of the Penal Era was the Castletown House, built for the Connolly family, who did indeed have an Irish origin.
There's more problematic wording in this article, in particular the statement about "native" Roman Catholics. Anyone versed in Irish history knows it is nonsensical to talk about "natives" in Ireland. And to the editors who write this stuff -- to whom are you referring? The Gaels? The Norse? The Normans? All of these groups, along with the English, Scots and Welsh (who also mixed with the Norse and Normans), had a long history of populating Ireland and intermixing with its inhabitants, insofar that it would be completely arbitrary to select a cut-off period of, say, 100, 300, 500, or 1,000 years of settlement to define just who these Irish "natives" are. This period is best understood in terms of religion and social class: the small Protestant elite, and the largely Roman Catholic underclass. Statements about "natives" and "origins" are unnecessary and confusing.Jonathan f1 (talk) 02:15, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Title
[edit]I think that I (just about) understand the apparent rationale given from the recent (unheralded and WP:BOLD) move. From "Anglo-Irish big house
". However, even if there were agreement that this title wasn't/isn't correct, I do not see how the new title ("The Big House in Ireland
") is appropriate. It seems problematic relative to several Wikipedia naming conventions. Including:
- WP:THE - Per this norm, titles normally only include a definite article its inclusion/exclusion changes the meaning of the term (which isn't the case) or if it would be capitalised in running text (which also isn't the case). Why is "The" included?
- WP:DAB - Is "in Ireland" a form of disambiguation suffix? To distinguish from a "big house" in the Southern US? Or a "big house" in New Zealand? If so, then I don't see how "in Ireland" meets WP:NCDAB?
- WP:COMMONNAME - Is there evidence that the new/extended title meets WP:COMMONNAME?
Thoughts? Guliolopez (talk) 20:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- Bump. Unless there are other thoughts, I propose to move this title to "
Big house (Ireland)
". For the reasons noted above. Namely that "the" shouldn't be included (as its inclusion doesn't change the meaning of the term or constitute a DAB prefix). And "house" shouldn't be capitalised (as it's not a proper noun and the term isn't a title or brand name). And "in Ireland" appears to be included for DAB reasons (but doesn't conform with DAB suffix norms). Thoughts? Guliolopez (talk) 12:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)- I think "The Big House in Ireland" looks nicer visually than "Big house (Ireland)", but I guess aesthetics are not what we're going for here. I don't know much about proper naming conventions. I once made the gaffe of naming a new page The Old Custom House, Dublin when really it should have been "Custom House, Dublin (1707)", or something like that. Ridiculopathy (talk) 14:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yes I can see how it doesn’t need capitals. I think the whole page could be renamed Irish country houses with a section on ‘the big house’ term. The Irish country house history goes beyond the terms Anglo-Irish big house or the big house so would make more sense. Heloeheod34 (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- I'd also be OK with Irish country house. Comparable to the equivalent English country house title. Which would solve the (kinda clunky and vague) 'big house' issue. Without reintroducing 'Anglo-Irish'. And also addressing @Ridiculopathy's concern about jamming "Ireland" in brackets at the end (which, I agree, is a somewhat complex and Wikipedia-only non-natural language framing).... Guliolopez (talk) 15:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)