Talk:Amman/GA1

GA Review

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Any remaining incidence of copyvio needs to be addressed.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass:

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Al Ameer son (talk · contribs) 01:06, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

I will review this article. After having read it in its entirety, the article has several issues but none which can't be fixed within 7 days. I will list the issues tomorrow and I'll try to help fix some of them with you. --Al Ameer (talk) 01:06, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: I've been copyediting the History section and I've noticed some material that was written dangerously close to the sources or was outright copy and pasted. I have rewritten all the material that I have found so far to be in violation of copyright and removed other copyvio violations that were not specific to the subject of Amman/Philadelphia/Ammon/Ayn Ghazal. It would be a good idea for you to go through the article and make sure there are no further areas of close paraphrasing or copy/paste. I will list the issues tomorrow or the day after, but this needs to be addressed. Another thing that needs to be worked on are the citations. They need to be detailed (author, title, publisher, year/date). --Al Ameer (talk) 03:37, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Sure, but isn't title and access date enough? Example : ref> ((cite web|url= |title= |accessdate= )) <ref

It depends. Most reliable sources will also have a clear publisher, which should be mentioned. If the source has an author, publisher and date, all of that should be included. --Al Ameer (talk) 19:41, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Take this link as example, http://www.jordantimes.com/news/local/amman%E2%80%99s-population-rises-around-4-million-%E2%80%94-biltaji . If you could kindly do it for me so that I try applying the same format to the rest of sources. --Makeandtoss (talk) 19:45, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Sure, for that source this would be ideal: ((cite news |title=Amman’s population rises to around 4 million — Biltaji |url=http://www.jordantimes.com/news/local/amman%E2%80%99s-population-rises-around-4-million-%E2%80%94-biltaji |accessdate=2015-09-21 |work=The Jordan Times |publisher=The Jordan News |date=2014-04-24)) --Al Ameer (talk) 20:04, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Thanks but what if it wasn't news, like this one ; http://cms.visitjordan.com/default.aspx?tabid=121 --Makeandtoss (talk) 20:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

For that site it would be: ((cite web |title=Amman: Religion & Faith |url=http://cms.visitjordan.com/default.aspx?tabid=121 |accessdate=2015-09-21 |publisher=The Jordan Tourism Board |year=2010)). General note: Tourism websites and travel guides are not the best sources because they are inherently promotional. Scholarly sources (books, journals and the like) are preferred particularly for material dealing with history. --Al Ameer (talk) 20:50, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for bothering you with my questions, but what if the content I want to add is only available on these tourism and travel guides (even though they are considered generally as accepted information)?--Makeandtoss (talk) 21:01, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

You're not bothering me at all, I'm glad to help. If the info is well-known, I'm sure you will be able to find it on google books. If there's anything you can't find, I can help you look for the info. --Al Ameer (talk) 21:13, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Review

I will detail the issues section-by-section. You could cross off items you have addressed. If you have a question or comment about a certain point you could type your reply under it. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:18, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

General issues

• As I mentioned above, any incidences of close paraphrasing need to be rewritten.
• References should be detailed, citation templates are the best route for this. The author (if any), title, url (if the source is online) publisher, date/year (if specified) should be mentioned.
• Redudant wikilinks need to be avoided. In other words, the same article should typically not be linked more than once in the article body.

Still a lot of the redundant linking throughout the article. From a quick scan, I've spotted Queen Alia International Airport linked several times.

I hope I didn't miss anything. --Makeandtoss (talk) 10:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

• Promotional or biased terms need to be removed such as "remarkable", "marvelous", etc.
• Unless context is necessary, all material in the article should be focused on Amman rather than broader subjects like Jordan, Christian/Islamic history, etc.
• The entire article pretty much needs some copyediting to fix grammar, sentence flow and style issues. I will help you with this part though. Note: Not completely sure

History

• It appears Amman's history stopped in 747 AD. It should be noted in either the end of the "Umayyad rule" or beginning of the "Ottoman rule" sections that Amman had been abandoned for all of that time between the mid-8th century and the late 19th-century.
• The British Mandate and Post-independence history should be expanded to fill in the gaps. I've added some sources to the Bibliography that contain information about these periods. I will help add new material to these two sections. Other than that, the History section is fine now. I'm glad you reduced that large quote in the Ottoman era section.

Geography

• The climate section is repetitive in some places and is filled with one or two-sentence passages. It should be restructured a bit. For instance, right after this line: Amman's position on the mountains near the Mediterranean climate zone places it under the semi-arid climate classification, you should briefly describe each season in Amman and keep all of that info in one passage. Anything that is referenced or redundant should be removed or replaced.
• The sentence that begins with "It is known among locals that some boroughs such as the northern suburb of Abu Nser ..." should be sourced. The ref used is a mirror site of Wikipedia. A different source is needed for this sentence, or it could just be removed.
• This stand-alone sentence "Amman's weather is comparable to the that of Damascus" should be removed, or at least sourced and then merged into the first passage.

Local government

• This section is fine, although it is pretty short. If it could be expanded further that would be great, if not then no big deal. Note: I can expand it, but there are no sources on the internet about it.

Ok, I'll try to find something on google books.

• The table listing Amman's mayors should be slightly restructured for layout purposes into two main columns. Note: I tried dividing them into two columns but putting them next to each other didn't work, instead they were placed on top of each other as before...

Ok.

Education

• The first sentence says "there are as many as 20 universities in Amman". It should instead assert the exact number of universities and colleges i.e. "there are 18 colleges and universities in Amman".
• The first and only passage in this section needs to be sourced, particularly the statements about the Applied University being the largest private university in the city and the bit about the National Orthodox School's student body composition.
• The table listing all of the universities should be titled.
• This section only discusses higher education in the city. Is there any info on primary and secondary education such as the number of primary and secondary schools (public and private) Amman has and the number of residents who are students? I understand it might be a difficult task finding this info, so I'm not going to make it a make-or-break issue.

Demographics

• The first passage is fine because it is specifically dealing with Amman. However, there are some interesting tidbits that should be mentioned about the city's population. For instance, I remember reading that nearly half of Jordan's population lives in the city. Another major aspect missing here is information about the composition of Amman's population i.e. Palestinian refugees and citizens, Transjordanians/East Jordanians, Iraqi and Syrian refugees, Circassians or Armenians. Note: these information are mentioned in post-independence section
• The religion section does not appear to be specific to Amman. It is mainly discussing the population, history and status of Christians in Jordan. This material should be removed and/or replaced by info dealing specifically with the population of Amman, not Jordan as a whole. Is there any sources out there discussing the city's religious make-up, its ethnic or religious minorities and majority?
• Unless I missed something, the source used for the first sentence of the Religion section states that the 6% Christian population figure pertains to the country of Jordan rather than the city of Amman. This needs to be clarified. Also, I couldn't find anything in the source that says Amman has a deeply-rooted Christian community. It could very well be that I missed something while reading the source, but unless I'm mistaken then this needs to be clarified/sourced or removed.
• The last part of the Religion section doesn't seem relevant to the demographics of Amman either. Do all of these schools of Islamic thought have a significant presence in Amman? If not, then it should be removed.

I might add some more info to the section. Also, because this section is supposed to focus on Demographics, the current ethnic, national and religious composition of the city is equally or more relevant here than in the history section. The history of each of these groups doesn't need to be mentioned in the Demographics section, but their existence and their numbers/percentage should be.

Cityscape

• The first sentence of the Architecture section does not appear to be supported by the citation. This should be referenced or removed.
• The last three sentences in the passage need to be sourced.

Economy

• This section is mostly fine.

Transportation

• This section needs to be copyedited and slightly rewritten to avoid sounding like an editorial. Words and phrases such as "it is impossible to connect some main roads together which results in the use of expensive infrastructure", "Immigration waves forced rapid construction", "becoming increasingly troublesome" and "futuristic solution" need to be reworded to read in a more encyclopedic way. If you're having trouble with this I could help reword these passages.
• The text should avoid speculation or predictions such as "A ring road encompassing the city will be opened by the end of 2015". Material like this should be removed until the construction is actually completed. Alternatively, you could write that the ring road is currently under construction if that is the case.
• Again, another line that is speculative is the follow: "There are also plans to construct a three-line metro system in Amman ... ". There is no indication in the text that this is even under construction, its just "plans". Therefore that entire passage should be removed until construction begins or is completed.
• The "Bus and taxi" section is fine, although it would be good if you added the exact year when the Raghadan station was built instead of the vague "newly-built".

Notable people

• This section is trivial and unnecessary. Amman is a large city and half the famous people of Jordan were probably born there. A new article called List of people from Amman could be created instead and a link to that article could be added to a "See also" section in this article.

Main sights

• This section should go. Good articles shouldn't have sections dedicated to landmarks. What should be done here is the merger of the passage on Downtown Amman into the "Cityscape" section and the merger of the King Abdullah Mosque passage into the "Religion" section. As for the Amman Citadel and the Roman Theater, these should be merged into the "History" section and if they are also currently used for cultural reasons like museums, concerts, recreation, etc., then you could also mention that in the "Culture" section.

Twin cities This section is fine.

Culture

• You need a source that says the Jordan Archaeological Museum is the "most famous museum in the city". The current source doesn't support that claim.
• A source is needed to say Amman is one of the most "liberal cities" in the Arab world. The current Russia Times sources just supports the "one of the most westernized" part of the sentence and the ref 115 is a dead link and the archived link doesn't show anything.
• Ref 116 is not a reliable source and shouldn't be used.
• Neither ref 116 or ref 117 mention McDonalds so that should be removed.
• The following line is too close to the source: The city's culinary scene has expanded from its shawerma stands and falafel joints ... Asian fusion restaurants, French bistros such as La Maison Verte and Italian trattorias. The source also doesn't mention anything about American fast-food.
• The source doesn't say "Alcohol is widely available". Also, it mentioned that alcohol is available at nightclubs and bars and there are 222 liquor stores, so this fact on its own is redundant. It would be more noteworthy if you write: "unlike other parts of Jordan, Alcohol is widely available in Amman" or something along those lines. Either way, it would need a source.
• The second passage of the "Lifestyle" section isn't sourced.
• The "Nightlife" should just be merged with the "Lifestyle" section.
• There's some repeated information in this section about nightclubs such as "Nightclubs have sprouted across Amman", "there are numerous nightclubs" and "there are 77 registered nightclubs"
• This section needs copyediting. One thing I've noticed frequently in the article is referring to Amman as "the capital city". Those instances should just be replaced with "Amman" or "the city".
• The line "The New York Times has praised the cuisine of Amman" is an extraordinary and odd claim. For one, the source is an opinion piece in the travel section of the newspaper so it is a stretch to say that The NY Times has made the claim. Second, the source doesn't say anything about Amman's cuisine being praised, and third the source isn't talking about a distinct Ammani cuisine, but rather about the food scene in Amman, which is different.
• Unless it could be demonstrated from reliable sources that Amman has a distinct cuisine such as Aleppo, Damascus, Nablus, etc. then this section should be removed or parts of it merged into the "Lifestyle" section.
• There is an unsourced sentence in the "Sports" section with a citation needed tag.
• The "Media" section is good.
• The "Music" section should either be merged with the "Media" section or the "Lifestyle" section.
• The first line of the "Events" section is not backed by the source. Also, anytime there's an extraordinary claim like "the most famous" or "one of the most famous", a source explicitly supporting that claim is needed.

Discussion

@Al Ameer son: Kindly check the notes... --Makeandtoss (talk) 23:24, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll begin the rest of the review which will focus on the History, Economy and Culture sections. Also, note that there is still an issue with an unsourced statement in the Climate section and several instances of redundant linking. --Al Ameer (talk) 00:00, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: By redundant linking, do you mean repetitive linking of same article or linking in general? Also, perhaps you can try to re-arrange the list of mayors into a shorter (in height) format? --Makeandtoss (talk) 12:23, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Repetitive linking of the same article. --Al Ameer (talk) 18:14, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: I had a weird encounter with some random user, he viciously insisted on that quote and some random 1878 picture, after discussion he agreed to add it to the reference.. Anyway;

• I can't see why the metro passage can't stay. Yeah sure its plans, but why can't we mention the plans?

Because they're just plans. As an encyclopedia, we're not in the business of speculating. If they're currently building roads, you can mention that such a project is currently under construction. But if they're just plans, there's nothing to say yet. What if the plans never become real? That kind of info belongs in a business/investment flyer or even for tourists, but not an encyclopedia. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:43, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

• I personally think the notable people section is a great addition to the article.

These sections are more appropriate for small towns or villages who have a handful or notable sons or daughters, but with a city like Amman which is a capital city and contains nearly half of the country's population, the number of notable people who were born there is naturally going to be huge. See Category:People from Amman. What is to stop another user from adding all of the people in that category to the sections's list? As a compromise, you could create an article called List of people from Amman and link it in a "Notable people" or "See also" section. Take a look at other good or featured articles on major cities such as Ahmedabad, Hong Kong, Washington D.C.. None of those articles have such sections. However, others like London and Dubai have that section but they contain only a link to a list article. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:43, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

• I have no idea how to rephrase the road section into a more encyclopedic way

I'll copyedit it. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:43, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

--Makeandtoss (talk) 22:04, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Btw, do you have anything extra in mind that we could possibly add to the article? --Makeandtoss (talk) 23:28, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

You've done a pretty good job covering all of the bases, so as far as extra subjects that should be added, I can't think of any. However, there is some modern-day history that is missing and could be added. I will help you with this because I have found some online book sources with that kind of information. It's available in the Bibliography section. If you're interested, take a look at other good articles about cities to use as a frame of reference: [1]. I'm going to critique the Culture section tonight or tomorrow and then this review will pretty much be finished unless I find some major issues. --Al Ameer (talk) 23:52, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Kindly check an error in second book in bibliography section. @Al Ameer son: --Makeandtoss (talk) 00:25, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

• This article has a lot of copyvio. The very first paragraph in the geography section is a direct copy-paste of this page (which it cites). I'm not sure if this is a mirror or a case of citogenesis, yet in any case it presents us with problems. I'll err on the side of caution and assume it is copyvio, and will try re-writing it using actual book sources. Elspamo4 (talk) 00:58, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Please do. There's no way I could pass the article with copyright violations, which Wikipedia takes very seriously. I've rewritten many instances already and will continue to look for more, I urge the nominator to do the same. --Al Ameer (talk) 01:01, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: @Elspamo4: The geography paragraph was there before I started editing so I assumed it was OK. I tried to look for violations but all I found was closely written content in the history section, which I have rewritten again. Notify me if you find anything else. --Makeandtoss (talk) 13:05, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: all done, but would you say I should add the district section to administrative division section as sub section or directly? --Makeandtoss (talk) 21:29, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

It should be merged directly under "Administrative divisions". The first passage of "Local government" and the "City council" section should also be merged. Because copyvio has been a concern, I have to make sure there is no more close paraphrasing. Once that is checked thoroughly and addressed, I'll promote the article. Until then, I have placed the nomination on hold. The Duplicate Detector is a good tool to find any instances of copyvio. Just type the article's url at the top box and the url of any given online source at the second box and then enter. You should set the minimum number of words at 3. --Al Ameer (talk) 21:56, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Is that a side note or are you saying I should do that for all the references? --Makeandtoss (talk) 22:14, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

• The lead contains the unreferenced statement "With the exception of Persian Gulf cities, Amman has a faster growing economy than any other Arab city.". The Brookings' Metropolitan Policy Program released an economic performance report for 2013-14 that shows cities such as Cairo, Alexandria and Casablanca ahead of Amman. Perhaps I wasn't thorough enough in looking for sources, can either of you verify this statement? Maybe its status as a regional business hub could be referred to instead if no suitable sources are found. Elspamo4 (talk) 22:06, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

@Elspamo4: I couldn't verify it, so unless it can be proven by a reliable source, this sentence should be removed. Thanks for finding that.

@Makeandtoss: You should do that for all of the references. I've already checked Refs 1 through 43. I found several instances of copyvio and rewrote them. You could start from Ref 43. Here's one example of copyvio caught by the Duplicate Detector (Ref 47): [2]. The material in bold print needs to be rewritten. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:17, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: What about the phrases that are mere coincidences? --Makeandtoss (talk) 17:50, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: If by "phrase" you mean two-word phrases, I wouldn't worry about those. If you notice three or more words that are exactly the same as the source, the wording should be rewritten. --Al Ameer (talk) 17:54, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Here's an example: 'of the population' .. --Makeandtoss (talk) 18:07, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Common phrases like that are fine. I guess three words is a bit much. It's fragments like this (of which there are many) that are the problem: "positioning itself as a hub for business and new projects are continually transforming the city's skyline following the 2003 iraq war". That's an exact copy of what the source says. --Al Ameer (talk) 18:18, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: So this one is all good? http://tools.wmflabs.org/dupdet/compare.php?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.riteme.site%2Fwiki%2FAmman&url2=http%3A%2F%2Frt.com%2Fnews%2Fmedia-jordan-breaking-taboos%2F&minwords=3&minchars=13 Elsampo4, I will try finding a reference.

And if we could delete some of the talk page, as it is getting quite troublesome to reply --Makeandtoss (talk) 19:14, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Done, I found only one sentence concerning BRT, which I have rewritten. All good now --Makeandtoss (talk) 20:44, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: The source you added for the lead [3] doesn't really justify that statement. Something like "Amman has one of the highest rates of economic growth in the region [or 'Middle East']" might work though. Elspamo4 (talk) 20:55, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

@Elspamo4: I can't find anything, so I guess it has to be rephrased into 'Amman has a high rate of economic growth' --Makeandtoss (talk) 21:09, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok I rewrote a few more lines I thought were too close to the source, but as far as copyvio, that matter now appears to be addressed. Last major issue is the references:

• Refs 63, 84, 85, 92, 96, 99, 100, 102, 104, 106, 113, 124, 125, 139, 144, 145, 147, 149, 151 and 156 are all dead links! And if they're not dead links, they're homepages or redirects. These obviously need to be fixed, or the material that they support needs to be removed/replaced, otherwise the refs would be meaningless.
• Refs 29, 82, 85, and 151 need titles (the last three are actually dead links and should be replaced anyway)
• All sources that are in Arabic should have the following parameter added to their citation template: ( |language=Arabic ).
• Ref 101 is unreliable and needs to be replaced.
• General note: Travel and tourist websites should not be used because they're inherently promotional and not the most reliable for encylopedic facts. So far, I'm fine with them, but after this review, they should be gradually replaced with scholarly sources. If the article is to ever advance further than GA, these types of sources won't do. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:42, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son:(After editing references the number you used to mark them might have changed)

• Concerning reference 84: Concerning mayors of Amman, I tried searching for another reference but all I found is the same list from Arabic wikipedia article of Amman.
• I managed to find archives for other references and in some cases, completely replaced them.--Makeandtoss (talk) 19:21, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: Thank you. The article still has some issues (i.e too much usage of travel sites) that I think should be dealt with, but none that I believe prevent me from passing this nomination. Congratulations and thank you for your patience and hard work on improving this article, I hope you continue this good work for other Jordan-related subjects. Cheers --Al Ameer (talk) 18:33, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Great! I will try to find an alternative to these sites. Thank you too for helping me out here --Makeandtoss (talk) 20:16, 1 October 2015 (UTC)