Talk:Alternative comedy

Definition needed

I would like to help clean up this article, but there isn't a clear definition as to what 'alternative comedy' actually is. Could someone who knows explain it either in discussion or even the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.105.56.13 (talk) 13:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Read the history

If suggest you read through previous versions of this document. Basically, it's been written by two people. The first person wrote the bulk of the article and the second person added in some useful info but hasn't done in a very structured way. You need a Definition heading, and then a History heading. Despite what you say, the definition of alternative comedy is in there: (quote) "In terms of content, alternative comedy tended to rely not on racial or other stereotypes (which was the mainstay of the previous generation The Comedians-style comics), or even standard punchline jokes. Instead it used personal observation and intellectual humour" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.53.142 (talk) 10:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Notability (comedy)

I've created Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) to help editors in deciding the notability of comedy- and humor-related articles. Please help hammer it into shape. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 08:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality of the final section

I wonder about the neutrality of the following.

"Though alternative comics push the envelope and change the form for the better - Demetri Martin and Improv Everywhere come to mind - alternative rooms also have hack comics. While bad club comics often touch on hackneyed topics during their act (relationships, airplanes, the French), these hacks have made once-interesting alternative tropes trite (absurdist wordplay, cultural references to '80's pop, geek culture or hipster trends)."

that is a quote. The phrase Change the form for "the better" is subjective. Demitri Martin has made no changes to the form of standup, everything he's noted for was done before him (playing music while doing comedy (Jack Benny, Henny Youngman, Victor Borge), short one liners (henny youngman, stephen wright, mitch hedberg) use of visual aids and props (need i really list everyone from vaudeville until now who's done that?). That isn't to say he's not a noted alternative standup, but that he personally hasn't changed standup in any noticable way. Also, that any change is debatably "for the better" or "for the worse" is not neutral. ALso, the absurdist wordplay, cultural references to the '80s pop/geek culture, or hipster trends are not clearly defined nor are examples given. Absurdist wordplay, as based on linguistics, plays into the "expectation/deviation" format of comedy joke henri bergson , and has been a constant in comedy since at least Aristophanes (menander used it, plautus was a MASTER of it.) At least, if i read "absurdist wordplay" as the use of non-obvious puns, tricks of verbal tense and semantic logical conflicts within a single thought, and paradoxical or abstruse phrasings (ex. To have sex into a woman) Second, cultural references to the 80s pop culture clearly is a modern in use, as the 80s only ended 16 years ago, but reference to the past/childhood is not new, and it's debatable whether simply referring to another decade's pop culture ever constituted "alternative' comedy. Comedians have referenced out of date, formerly 'cool' but no longer 'cool' trends, things remembered fondly, and fads, for the entire last century. This is neither new, nor alternative. Perhaps, as the assertion has been made that "alternative comedy" demonstrates a generational divide, the 80s references falling out of fashion is an indication of the aging people who lived during the 80s no longer being part of the "young' crowd that creates alt. comedy. So perhaps, 90s cultural references will supersede them. Regardless, it seems ridiculous to consider referencing Transformers as "alternative" comedy, any more than Bill Cosby referencing Howdy Doody would be alternative. Reference comedy has, among comedians, been considered "hackneyed" for a long time, before it being specifically tied to G.I. Joe and Popples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.191.69.18 (talk) 23:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE: The section in question has been deleted. The multiple errors in spelling, capitilization and punctuation in the paragraphs above are so voluminous that I have decided to leave the author responsible for correcting them, though I must confess that "rediculous" is a shining example of absurdist wordplay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.194.132.20 (talk) 01:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Political satire and socialism?!

The line on political satire associates it with "...a radicalised political awareness rooted in socialism." This seems a very weird thing to say. It seems to me that most political satire is directed at the group in power, whoever they happen to be. And, obviously, comedians can have political beliefs right across the political spectrum. To say political satire is somehow "rooted in socialism" seems incongruous. Can someone explain this? -- FP ^{(talk)(edits)} 09:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

While The use of the term alternative began later in america, the claim that alternative comedy started later in America is inaccurate. The definition of "alternative" comedy given here is equally appropriate for the "Rebel Comedians" in America, who began in the '50s and 6'0s doing more character-based, story, surreal, and observational comedy. The use of the word "alternative" to describe the movement, is newer here. It's interesting that some American standups who deride the current American alternative movement are in the tradition of earlier comedians alternative at the time. Saying that America got in on this later is inaccurate: the Compass Players, Second City, Lenny Bruce, Jonathan Winters, Bill Cosby, Nichols and May, Robert Klein, Bob Newhart, Firesign Theater, and a host of others fit the definition of alternative for their time, doing something extremely different from the work of the traditional American standups. Shoot, Ernie Kovacs was dead for a few decades before this "alternative" comedy is said to have begun. At any rate, I'd say there has been some cross-fertilization throughout the post-war period, and a parallel movement away from traditional comedy. See Revel with a Cause and The Rebel Comedians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.117.222.175 (talk) 17:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course very little of what was "new" about alternative comedy was actually new. Other than the leftist or antiestablishment bent--which has been common among comedians since the early 20th century--the major innovation is supposed to be the end of the setup/punchline rhythm. Of course a decade before Elton and friends, Monty Python thought their greatest contribution was subverting the traditional setup/punchline rhythm--and then realized that some of their favorite comedians, including Spike, had already done away with it. Everyone thinks that if they're not doing Henny Youngman, they're doing something new--and then one day they realize that Henny Youngman was subverting the same comedy expectations they were. ("Take my wife--please" doesn't work except as deliberate sabotage to the usual rhythm.)

Being rude on stage, mixing intellectual humor with fart jokes, insulting yourself, playing a parody or caricature of yourself (or, in Mayall's case, a parody of a caricature of yourself), and making pointed social commentary have all been there from the birth of comedy. As for the rhythm, that always changes with each new generation, to the point where you can immediately tell what generation someone is from by whether the best bit beings with "I understand..." or "So I was..." or "You ever notice...."

What makes the "alternative comedy" of the 80s "alternative comedy" is simply that they called it that (or, often, vehemently protested the label so loudly that if you'd never heard it before you couldn't fail to miss it). It's just like punk rock--the Sex Pistols weren't really that loud or fast or stripped-down or raw or angry compared to even Chuck Berry, much less the Stooges. And it's not like rockers were ever nice, polite chaps you'd invite to your gran's house for tea. But they called it "punk" and so it was. --76.205.26.9 18:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here so late in the day. A lot of the comedians from Alternative Cabaret and the Comedy Store self-identified as socialists, and had what can only be described as hard left views. It's all documented in the definitive book on the subject, Didn't You Kill My Mother In Law? by Roger Wilmut, which needs to be referenced in this article more. I think there is one, unsourced reference to it. Some of these people were heavily politicised, and to suggest otherwise is misleading. Political satire itself is not the same as alternative comedy (although a c can contain satire) , and it would be best not to confuse the two terms. Kaleeyed (talk) 22:16, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

removal

It should be noted that for an alternative comic to rise to comedic prominence does not mean that they rose to any public consciousness.- can this be deleted on account of it's being irrelevant? Denverjsmith 00:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)denverjsmith

Sources

Unless some sources can be found that document the use of this phrase and it's history, it should be put up for deletion as original research. I haven't looked through all of the external links, but it seems clear that many of them are blogs, forums and schedules that don't meet any sort of criteria for inclusion. 24.4.253.249 20:29, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

At least in the UK, everyone who was around in the 80s knew what "alternative comedy" meant: Ben Elton, Rik and Ade, Alexei Sayle, anyone who made jokes about "Thatch." Put simply, alternative comedy was the standup version of alternative music, aka postpunk. And, like alternative music, the term soon lost its meaning, as all of the alternative comedians either stopped being alternative or stopped being comedians (or, like Elton, both). That didn't stop young comedians who'd missed the boat, lazy journalists, or impresarios looking to make a buck from trying to carry on the term, any more than musicians, journalists, and record labels stopped looking for the new alternative music. And of course, just as there are still postpunk and alternative bands today, there are more sincere people trying to carry on the spirit of alternative comedy. (It's telling that LA's UnCabaret nights used the same venue as Amy Mann and Michael Penn's music nights.)

Anyway, as of 2007, "alternative comedy" doesn't have a single meaning; it has at least four:

• The comedy produced by the generation of left-wing, absurdist comedians popular in the 80s.
• Comedy that's similar in style and material to the 80s alternative comedians.
• Comedy that's intended to be a descendent in spirit from the 80s alternative comedians.
• Comedy that's as radically different from the mainstream as alternative comedy was from its predecessors (despite the fact that the mainstream today is made up of the original alternative comedians and their successors).

Trying to come up with a single definition that encompasses all four is as silly as trying to define alternative music post-Nirvana. --76.205.26.9 18:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Where the heck are any sources to back up the contentions about pre-1990 American comedy? There is this hugely conjectural establishment of alternative comedy in the U.S being "in contrast to the material onstage at the Comedy Store and the Improv"--which given the definition of "alternative," might be fine--that then goes on to limn that more "mainstream" comedy as "homophobic, xenophobic or misogynistic." The entire following section reads as if written by Lapides. Moreover,the section--not supported by adequately journalistic or scholarly sources--then goes on to be somewhat of a potted history of the Un-Cabaret, not really the topic of this article. Anyone have any reason why much of this should not be deleted as PoV and the rest collapsed? --Patchyreynolds (talk) 20:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Dave Allen's influence on Alternative Comedy

How about including a reference to Dave Allen as a precursor to alternative comedy? Alternative comics cite him as an influence, e.g.:

http://www.unesco.org/courier/1999_05/uk/dires/txt1.htm

And the observational style of much of his comedy was ahead of its time.

Peteinterpol (talk) 19:38, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Major alternative comedy scenes

I removed this from the article and bring it here for discussion:

Currently, alternative comedy is experiencing a renaissance in cities such as Seattle, Chicago, and Vancouver. Necessarily, what is alternative to one generation is staid to another, and the young comedians in the East Village and Toronto have put their new stamp on what is considered "not mainstream". The idea of a "non-physical venue" is also on the rise, with downloadable acts in the form of a video podcast using the viewer's iPod or computer as the new stage. Such groups as The Lonely Island, Crazy Asian Food and Train of Thought Sketch Comedy have been able to promote their unique brand of humor on the video sharing website Youtube, in the form of short skits and vignettes that you can either download or stream from their respective sites. Without the pressure of renting a performance space or getting a "bad performance time" the focus is put on providing a non-traditional form of comedy that not only plays with content, but with concept and medium as well.

In addition to having no references, this is written in a highly POV form. In addition, my guess is that the comedy groups mentioned here are not very notable---Crazy Asian Food, for example, has been added to a number of different articles by an anonymous user bent on promoting them. A section of this sort is rife for abuse because it is too vague. If any of this can be sourced, fine, otherwise, it should be left out. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 04:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Reorganzed the article

This article needs a lot more references. Based on the refs I just added, it looks like "alternative comedy" is like alternative music: a term that meant something specific in the early 1980s in certain places, but is vague enough to be redefined each decade or so. Television and other global mediums have help influence various regional definitions, but the regional definitions are distinct enough that I think the best we can do is give each country its own section, which is what I did. From the sources I saw the UK has a pretty good claim to the term "alternative comedy" first getting widely used in the early 1980s so I phrased it that way in my changes. It appears that once the term gained momentum, comedians and then audiences started retrospectively redefining comedians from earlier eras as alt comedians (e.g. Steve Martin, who clearly predates Ben Elton, and the numerous men like Spike Milligan who get called the grandfathers of alt comedy). 67.100.127.146 (talk) 01:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Definition

Quikc note : is the "definition" part really necessary? A regular comedian would rely on all of these aspects. Not just an "alternative" comedian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.170.39.33 (talk) 10:48, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Bill Hicks anyone?

Second wave perhaps. Jimthing (talk) 05:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Nothing like second wave, that was in about 1984. But he does belong here I agree.Kaleeyed (talk) 22:24, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Gutting of article

I've just cut out more than half of the article. Much of the article had been unsourced for a year and a half, and a good portion of that was definitely original research (people were describing comedians, shows, and clubs as alternative without any references or back up; my guess is the info just crept in over time). Any of that info can certainly be added back in if it is sourced. I still share the concern of the "Synthesis" tag, in that I'm not sure that all of the different sources are using "alternative comedy" to actually define a genre of comedy, and instead may just be using it as a general adjective. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Nice work Qwyrxian. Still needs a lot of work this article, it's so rambling and bitty and jumps about all over the place. It needs paragraphs and historical sections, mentioning precusers, first second and third wave. I would like to see people referencing actual articles and books instead of just writing off the top of their heads. Some of the tone is quite poor, needs formalising. I have an extremely good book on the subject, Didn't You Kill My Mother In Law? by Roger Wilmut which is referenced in the article once but the book is not named. It is in my opinion the definitive book on the subject, although it only goes to 1989. But for early formation and the background it is unbeatable and needs to be referenced more to make this article "stand up" (pardon the pun). Kaleeyed (talk) 22:22, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

US Alternative Comedy

I find this section problematic. It is all based around the 2000s, do these comics really identify themselves as alternative comedy? I think the difference is in the US it was never called alternative comedy in the 70s, it was just called 'standup'. Whilst I think alternative comedy may have been a definition that evolved in England, the Comedy Store London was set up by a British man called Peter Rosengard, who had visited LA and and Comedy Store there, and decided to try and import an American style of standup to the UK. When the Comedy Store opened, standup in the US sense did not exist in England. There were working men's club comics, but their style was very different, forulaic, although some could be very inventive within that formula. So although alternative comedy as a defintition is an British thing, it is very influenced by US standup culture, although there are British precursers to Alt Com, Billy Connelly, Victoria Wood and Tony Allen. There needs to be mention of 70s and 80s comedians such as Robin Williams, John Ratzenberger (yes really!) and Steve Martin, who were cited influences on British alternative comediansKaleeyed (talk) 22:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Suggest splitting the article in two: UK alternative comedy (clearly defined) and...the other stuff.

It looks like there are two entirely different meanings to "alternative comedy". The British version was a fairly clearly defined movement within a British context with a radical agenda (politically and comedically)in the late 1970s and 1980s, and has been documented in a number of books. If there is an American movement called "alternative comedy" it should go in a separate article. These are not the same things.OsFish (talk) 05:49, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Class and politics missing

The reason the likes of Alexei Sayle are called the father of alternative comedy, in the early 80s, despite such avante-garde alternatives to the mainstream as Spike Milligan/Goons/Python much earlier, is that they often dealt with issues of politics and class (especially working-class concerns) that were ignored by earlier comedians. Yet, not a single mention of this in the article. Pretty big omission, making for a rather skewed article. 2.31.164.21 (talk) 15:26, 1 August 2021 (UTC)