Talk:Allen B. Reed

Complete failure of WP:RS and WP:NOR

I've removed huge chunks of the "Early years and family history" section because:

• This article is not about Samuel, James, or Allen G Reed, (or Jesse James or James Timberlake), per WP:IINFO and WP:DUE. Once any of those Reed ancestors becomes notable enough to have their own article, it will be worthwhile to mention them provided there is an WP:RS directly stating descent instead of the WP:OR of rebuilding the family tree on this page. The article is also not about his parents, but since other article give a couple of sentences room to immediate family, I've not removed everything, only what was undue weight.
• Ancestry.com, findagrave.com, and Samuelreedfamily.blogspot.com (though the last is run by my mother) are user-generated content and fail WP:RS.
• The remaining good sources do not connect Allen G. Reed to any of the claimed ancestors.

My mom is looking for a source for Allen B. Reed's birth date and parents. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:03, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Overly dependent on primary sources

This article borders a bit too much on original research because of all the primary sources being used. WP:BIO says that primary sources can not be used to establish notability. Are there any secondary sources that establish notability? Ian.thomson (talk) 14:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Merge Proposals

I'm replacing a few of these tags, {importance-section|date=October 2012}, with merge proposals since most of this material is not within wp:scope for this article. Thanks,   — Jason Sosa 20:33, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Notability

I'm not sure if the subject of this article is notable enough to warrant a page of its own. Although there is a great deal of effort and research shown in the context of this article, it seems to be only comprehensive, without an aura of significance to it. Also, much of what this article is made up of is what other individuals Allen B. Reed met, rather than what he himself did. DarthBotto _talk•cont 04:47, 08 October 2012 (UTC)

Pretty much. I think !WP:OWNer of the article has become discouraged and left when other people started to edit this page. I'm thinking that the sections on different ships should be merged to those different articles, and the !WP:OWNer given a deadline to provide a source establishing notability before this article is deleted. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:49, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree. This article appears to me, as giving undue credit to Allen B. Reed for military actions that involved teams or crews. The scope of this article seems to reflect the author of this article as being closely related to Allen B. Reed, who prepared content of military activity putting Allen B. Reed as the star, just as if you were to have Ben Afleck as the star of Pearl Harbor. It's as if you could replace Allen B. Reed's name with any other crewman's name who was involved in these military activities. If there is an ounce of benefit to merging the sub articles where I've indicated, then that would be great... but overall, I support the deletion or at least a drastic reduction of this article which I believe is in violation of wp:undue.  — Jason Sosa 15:19, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I suppose I didn't read through everything as thoroughly as I thought, but it's worse than I originally perceived. Practically Reed's entire early life consists of what James Timberlake did, with the only iota of contenuity being that they were in the same town at the same time. There is virtually no contenuity why it would matter that Timberlake was pursuing Jesse James at the time, much less that he was at James' funeral. DarthBotto _talk•cont 21:43, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Content that is uncited or without reliable sources

Through World War I

• Reed was born in Liberty, Missouri, on April 3, 1884, the oldest of four children of Clay County — no citation
• Sheriff James French Reed (1852–1909) and Fannie G. (Wymore) Reed (1857–1936), married on March 28, 1883. — this is a geneology page, need a better source  No
• He was named for his grandfather, Captain Allen Grigsby Reed (1812–1899). — no citation  No
• As deputy to Sheriff James Timberlake, Reed's father and Timberlake served as pallbearers at the funeral of the outlaw Jesse James. — Need to first tie Allen to his father.  No
• Allen B. Reed received an appointment to enter the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis, Maryland from Rep. John Dougherty .  No

Adding all this content is WP:UNDUE focus on the early part of his career, in addition there's not anything particularly notable in this content

During the summers of 1901 and 1902 he made training cruises on the USS Indiana (BB-1) and USS Chesapeake. — no citation Asiatic Fleet Section, After "Paragua was part of Philippine Squadron..: "that along with other ships in the "mosquito fleet" of mostly seized ex-Spanish gunboats and steam yachts, patrolled the Philippine Islands primarily south of Mindanao in the Sulu Archipelago to intercept pirates, gunrunners, slave-traders and support U.S. Army and local Philippine Constabulary ground forces during the Moro Rebellion of 1899–1913. Asiatic Fleet Section, was 2nd paragraph: During the Third Sulu Expedition in May 1905, the gunboat transported the provisional company of the US Army's 17th Infantry to Pata Island on an expedition to kill or capture a Moro chieftain whose tribe had been robbing other islanders to the point that the panglima in charge of the island had requested the army's assistance. Midshipman Reed volunteered to accompany the expedition ashore and acted as signal officer to the gunboat using "wig-wag" flags and controlled the gunfire on a part of the firing line at the Battle of Pata Island on May 13, 1905. During the fighting the rifle of a soldier standing by Reed became jammed and the midshipman gave him his sidearm to fire. Reed was commended by the army company commander in his report to Major General Leonard Wood, who in his report commended Paragua for its assistance in the expedition. Promoted to ensign on February 2, 1906, Reed assumed command of Paragua that same day from Kerrick. Pacific Fleet, last sentence of paragraph 1: Charleston sailed along the west coast from Mexico to British Columbia on exercises and fleet maneuvers until entering Mare Island Naval Shipyard in March 1908 to prepare for transfer to the Asiatic Fleet. Nicaragua, last sentence of paragraph 2: Denver was recommissioned on July 25, 1912 at Mare Island for service with the Pacific Fleet cruising the west coast from San Francisco to Central America to protect American citizens and property. Pacific Torpedo Flotilla, last sentence: Iris was based at San Diego and serviced the Pacific Fleet torpedo ships and submarines. Panama, last sentence: While serving as Port Captain at Balboa, Reed was promoted to lieutenant commander on August 29, 1916.  No On April 8, 1904, Mohican was assigned as station ship at the Naval Station, Olongapo, Subic Bay, Luzon, Philippines and arrived at her new station on February 4, 1905. Reed served on Mohican variously as W division and signal officer before he was detached on April 17, 1905 to be executive officer of USS Paragua. — citation failed verification "On December 14, 1906, Reed detached from Paragua" - no citation On the Charleston: "from June 10, 1907 to April 18, 1908 as W & D division officer and senior assistant engineering officer."- no citation Ensign Reed detached from Charleston on April 18, 1908 to the protected cruiser USS Albany (CL-23), of the Pacific Fleet Second Squadron Fourth Division, as senior engineer, reporting for duty on April 19, 1908 at Mare Island where Albany was berthed. - failed verification, just shows he's on the Charleston, seems to be a dupe of the google book reference - got part of this from another source

Washington D.C.

• Following World War I, he was assigned to the Bureau of Steam Engineering in Washington, D.C.  No
• and permanently promoted to commander on June 3, 1921. No (just looked by year + commander)
• In 1923–24 he served as executive officer on the battleship USS Florida (BB-30).
• From June 1924 through July 1925, he was assigned to United States Naval Forces Europe and commanded the Clemson-class destroyer USS Worden (DD-288)
• Thereafter, Reed was assigned to matriculate at the Naval War College in Newport, Rhode Island for a year.
• He was assigned to the Ships' Movement Division of the office of the Chief of Naval Operations in Washington, D.C. from June 1926 through July 1928 and
• promoted to captain on March 16, 1927.
• From August 1928 through June 1929 he commanded Division 30, Destroyer Squadron 11, Battle Fleet from the flagship USS McCawley (DD-276) home-port Puget Sound Navy Yard in Bremerton, Washington and
• from July 1929 through May 1930 he commanded Division 45, Destroyer Squadron 11 from the USS Preble (DD-345) home-port of Naval Base San Diego.
• Returning to Washington, D.C. in June 1930, he was assigned to the Material Division of the office of the Chief of Naval Operations.

USS New Orleans

• The USS New Orleans (CA-32) was launched on April 12, 1933 at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, with Reed selected as the first commanding officer of the 876-man heavy cruiser while the ship was fitting out in 1933. Orleans was a lead ship in a class of seven "treaty cruisers", that collectively saw extensive service in all major engagements in the Pacific theater during World War II. - this kind of info can be obtained from the article about the ship
• New Orleans was commissioned on February 15, 1934 at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Under Captain Reed's command that ended on August 30, 1935,
• Background: USS New Orleans made a shakedown Transatlantic crossing to Northern Europe and Scandinavia in May and June 1934, returning to New York on June 28, 1934. I used this source, based upon its People page, and that contributors have to submit content, inferring an editorial process
• Background: On July 5, New Orleans sailed to rendezvous with USS Houston (CA-30), carrying President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, for a nearly 12,000 nmi. cruise through the Panama Canal to Hawaii and an exercise with the United States Airship Macon and her aircraft off the California coast. - Same source as the previous item
• Among New Orlean's junior officer plankowners under Captain Reed's command in 1934 were Ensign E.L. Jahncke, Jr., son of the Assistant Secretary of the Navy, and Ensign T.H. Moorer,who as Admiral Thomas H. Moorer was Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) from 1967–1970 and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 1970–1974.

World War II

• Later, he was appointed Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Army and Navy Munitions Board until 1939. Transferred from the active to retired list on June 30, 1939, he nevertheless continued on active duty for two more years. On July 1, 1939 he was assigned general inspector of operations for the United States Maritime Commission. His duties included advocating commission owned freight lines such as the Pacific Northwest & Oriental Line to shipping and rail companies. In 1940 and 1941 he was assistant to the Chairman of the U.S. Maritime Commission, Admiral Emory S. Land and Navy liaison to the Office of Production Management. After 37 years of service and the attack on Pearl Harbor still three months in the future, Captain Reed transferred to the inactive list on September 5, 1941.
• During World War II, he worked as an executive with shipbuilding firms in New York, Texas and South Carolina, before retiring in 1946.
• Personal life: The Reeds had a son and three daughters. Allen B. Reed, Jr. (1912–1996) graduated from Annapolis in 1935 and retired more than twenty years later as a captain.
• During his retirement, Captain Reed was a resident of Washington, DC and lived on Woodley Rd. NW where he and his wife lived from 1930 until his death in 1965. He is buried at Arlington Cemetery. - don't have citations for all of this
• Medals: Reed never held the rank of Lieutenant Junior Grade, as he was appointed a full Lieutenant after three years of service as an Ensign. For administrative reasons, Reed's naval record states he was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant (junior grade) and Lieutenant on the same day.

-- struck out the part that was found.--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:03, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Dates of rank

I moved this back to the article. I don't have sources for the exact dates he made ensign and lieutenant, but I put a comment and sentences for the first date he is recorded as having the rank.--CaroleHenson (talk) 16:27, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

moved back to article
United States Naval Academy Midshipman – Class of 1904 Ensign Lieutenant, Junior Grade Lieutenant Lieutenant Commander Commander Captain O-1 O-2 O-3 O-4 O-5 O-6 February 2, 1906 February 2, 1909 February 2, 1909 August 29, 1916 February 1, 1918 March 16, 1927 Source:

References

--Work in progress--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:36, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Decorations and awards

Navy Cross	Philippine Campaign Medal	First Nicaraguan Campaign Medal
Mexican Service Medal	World War I Victory Medal with Transport Clasp	American Defense Medal
Source:

Found a source that said that all officers and enlisted men of the Navy and Marines who participated in the Nicaragua landing - between a period of time, and including the ship that Reed was on - received the Nicaraguan Campaign Medal]. Reed commanded a group of men between those dates. There was already a source for the Navy Cross. So, I moved the table back with those two items.--CaroleHenson (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

1) For the Philippine Campaign Medal, this archived link from the article page says that he would have had to have participated in the MINDANAO1902-1905 and JOLO 1905, 1906, 1913 engagements. I am not seeing that in his cited content. But, this link mentions participation by vessel, including:USS Paragua: 15 Mar - 2 Apr 1905 and 23 Apr - 30 May 1905

He was on the Paragua in 1905, but I'm not sure when he joined the Paragua in 1905. Are the dates that he was on the Paragua known? Since this was given to everyone on the ship, it likely does not add to notability.--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:09, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

2) There currently are no citations that tie him to engagement in Mexico.--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:20, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I found information about USS Isis involved in the Mexican Revolution, and it seems that he was commander of Isis at that time, but it's not clear. It is clear, though, that he was on Isis during that period.--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:52, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

3) The World War I Victory Medal with Transport Clasp page lists one of the criteria for the navy as: "Atlantic Fleet: Service in the Atlantic Fleet 25 May 1918 11 Nov. 1918." The article said he began transporting troops in February 1918 on the USS Susquehanna (ID-3016) and made seven transatlantic voyages, for which received the Navy Cross. Not sure whether this is enough to conclude that he received it. It seems common sense that he received it, but perhaps since we don't have more specific dates, it would be OR. Again, also not sure that this adds to notability.--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:20, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

4) There is currently no cited content that specifically supports him receiving the American Defense Service Medal, per the criteria on that page: military service members who had served on active duty between September 8, 1939 and December 7, 1941. --CaroleHenson (talk) 00:24, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

There's information that he was at the Office of Production Management - but there are no specific dates. Someone typed "about 1940" in the caption, but I'm not seeing that in Library of Congress description of the file. I think it says date unknown, some time between 1940 and 1945 (or 1946, I am not remembering exactly).--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:22, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I summarized this info into a note that said that he might have received these medals, and explained why.--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:59, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The photo of him at the top of the article shows other medals.--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:19, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Necessity of info about other classes

How is this information necessary or relevant to this article?

There were 71 third class naval cadets in 1901–1902, 67 second class midshipmen in 1902–1903 and 62 first class midshipmen in 1903–1904.

References

Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 22:02, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Douglas E. Campbell, PhD - self-published book

I'm not sure if anyone is watching this page, but I thought I'd put this question out there. This book is self-published - Campbell, Douglas E. (July 2011). Volume I: U.S. Navy, U.S. Marine Corps and U.S. Coast Guard Aircraft Lost During World War II - Listed by Ship Attached. Lulu.com. p. 154. ISBN 978-1-257-82232-4. - so not one I would use as a source - unless the author is a known, knowledgeable person in his field. Does anyone know about Campbell or this book? Would it be considered a reliable source?--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:13, 8 December 2016 (UTC)