Talk:Alfred Cortot

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, copy edit, and maintain all articles related to classical music, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.Classical musicWikipedia:WikiProject Classical musicTemplate:WikiProject Classical musicClassical music articles

France

	France portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Switzerland Low‑importance

	Switzerland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Switzerland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Switzerland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SwitzerlandWikipedia:WikiProject SwitzerlandTemplate:WikiProject SwitzerlandSwitzerland articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Biography: Musicians

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians.

World War II

I have shortened this section, and tried to limit it to facts supported by references.

I deleted the phrase "Cortot ... had to compromise with the Vichy regime" because (1) there is no reference to support the statement that Cortot 'had to' (i.e. was obliged to) compromise with Vichy; and (2) Cortot accepted positions in the Vichy government, which would appear to go beyond 'compromising' with Vichy.

I deleted the short description of the Vichy Conseil National - it is better that this is explained in its own entry. (The description in the French wikipedia is actually better than that in the English).

I have also deleted a number of phrases which seek to provide possible explanations for Cortot's activities in WW2, but which are without references - e.g. 'they may have arisen from nothing more than his lifelong championship of Teutonic musical culture'.

I have deleted (because not supported by references) the sentences - "his wife, Clothilde Breal, daughter of the linguist Michel Breal, was of Jewish origin, and Clothilde Breal's cousin Lise Bloch was married to Léon Blum, the first Jew to become President du Conseil or Prime Minister in France. Cortot and the Blums maintained a close friendship." I also cannot understand the relevance of this. Blum was a strong opponent of Vichy, he was arrested and tried by Vichy on trumped up charges; he was handed over to the Germans and from 1942 to the end of the war he was held in Nazi concentration camps.

Gwedi elwch (talk) 01:18, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do you believe that final paragraph to be untrue? If you believe it is all or mostly correct, why not just find references and/or tag ^{[citation needed]} rather than delete it? It seems relevant to me. This is a matter of ongoing bewilderment, discussion and dismay 75 years later. It is highly relevant to Cortot's biography. SPECIFICO talk 01:35, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that, without a reference, I simply cannot understand what point is being made here. Even if Cortot was personally friendly with Blum this would hardly justify Cortot's participation in the Vichy administration, or his participation in the propaganda activities of Radio Paris. Gwedi elwch (talk) 01:59, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But is that text trying to make a point? I just read it as presenting some of the disturbing circumstances surrounding his behavior. SPECIFICO talk 02:17, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thoughts on the Current Text Jan 2024

Could we please consider the current text. The article on Cortot in the French wikipedia could serve as a very useful model : it is fuller, and more fully supported by references. See : Cortot in the French Wikipedia.

In our current article, the rather lengthy quotation from Daisy Fancourt's short article has, I believe, a number of problems.

(1) The quotation contains a substantial error of fact - that Cortot was Swiss by nationality not French. Cortot had only French nationality, as stated earlier in this section of our article, and also in the article on Cortot in French wikipedia (Bien que qualifié de « franco-suisse » par son biographe Bernard Gavoty et malgré son attachement à son pays de naissance, il n'a jamais eu que la nationalité française).

(2) The quotation states that Cortot did not have nationalistic sentiments towards France. This is not consistent with his patriotic activities during WW1 - described in the French wikipedia article : En 1914, Cortot interrompt sa carrière pianistique pour se consacrer entièrement à des actions patriotiques. Il organise des spectacles pour le public du front et de « l'arrière »art 1. Précisément, il organise des Matinées Nationales qui se dérouleront jusqu'en 1918 en Sorbonne, à Paris. Il participe également au rayonnement de la musique au sein des spectacles du Théâtre aux Armées, destinés aux combattants des tranchéesw 9. Appelé par Albert Dalimier, sous-secrétaire d’État aux Beaux-Arts qui le repère dès 1916, Cortot se voit confier en 1916 un « service de propagande artistique ». Il organise de nombreuses manifestations, expositions, représentations théâtrales, concerts dans les pays alliés ou neutres It is also not consistent with his activities at the outset of WW2 - up until the French defeat, leading to the Armistice of June 1940, the Nazi Occupation of Paris and much of North West France and the establishment in the remainder of France of the Vichy collaborationist regime.

(3) A related point - there needs to be a clearer distinction between the period before the defeat of France and the period afterwards. Criticism of Cortot's relations with the Nazi Occupation and with Vichy relate to the period after June 1940.

(4) The balance within Daisy Fancourt's article is not well reflected in the current presentation.

(5) Fancourt's article is essentially a short summary piece. The current text of our Cortot article, with its lengthy quotation, gives it too much prominence. At the expense of other, and more substantial, sources. See on this the citation of references in the French article. For example Chimènes 2001.

(6) The reference in the quotation to Cortot 'fighting for' certain Jewish musicians - Maria Freund is named - is part only of the controversy on this issue. The anti-semitic laws affected all aspects of French musical life - including Cortot's own Ecole Normale. Unlike Furtwangler, Cortot never criticised these policies. He has been criticised for failing to assist Haskil and Perlemuter, who had been among his students. On the other hand there is evidence that he did assist a number of Jewish musicians. The controversy, with references, is laid out in the French article. But not currently in our article.

A final point - it seems to me that to follow the sentence about the verdict on his collaboration, with a lengthy statement of his defence, has again the wrong balance.

For consideration - it seems to me that the French language article is well composed and well referenced. It has considerably more content on this, and on other aspects of Cortot's life and career. Would it be open to us to approach the French editors and ask if they would permit the translation and incorporation of some part of their article? If we were to do this it would I think be appropriate to cross-refer to the history of the French article, and to the editors responsible for it.

Gwedi elwch (talk) 01:33, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would only add that there is no assessment of the value of Daisy's views. Why is she quoted as if an authority? 2A00:23C6:AA10:4501:5896:59B6:4BFE:42A1 (talk) 20:41, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Descombes

Was Emile Descombes a pupil of Chopin? Cortot doesn't list him in his discussion of Chopin's pupils (Cortot 1951, 27-9), and he's not mentioned in Eigeldinger's Chopin: pianist and teacher as seen by his pupils. DanLW 10:34, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No mention of his book "Rational Principles of Pianoforte Technique"? I would write something about it but I do not know a lot about its history, development etc, I just sort of use it. Still, I think it deserves a place, if not its own article. Hydraton31 00:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discography

The official SonyBMG Masterworks discography link for this artist is as follows

Discography at SonyBMG Masterworks

It (in most cases) contains a full listing of in-print CDs released on the SonyBMG labels within the US (for the moment), along with track listings and in some cases audio clips (which will become more robust in the new year). Ecommerce links are provided inobtrusively.

I have been informed that it creates a conflict of interest to post these links directly from my account, so please consider adding the page to the link section. Thanks. Softlord 23:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A SURPRISING ENTRY

The above "discography" contains exactly ONE item...

Whilst Sony has issued a CD collection of Cortot master classes at the behest of and as a courtesy to Murray Perahia, a great Sony artist, Cortot NEVER recorded for Sony during his lifetime and is not associated with that label in the least.

After a number of fine, early Victor [now BMG] records, Cortot was exclusively an EMI artist. Most of his recordings, of whatever make, are today available from independent labels such as Byddulph or Music and Arts, not from either BMG or EMI. 65.206.122.30 (talk) 22:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 02:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Alfred Cortot. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050306063111/http://www.rprf.org/Rollography.html to http://www.rprf.org/Rollography.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:32, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Alfred Cortot. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:32, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Alfred Cortot. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080516080050/http://www.wyastone.co.uk/nrl/gpiano/8814c.html to http://www.wyastone.co.uk/nrl/gpiano/8814c.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:41, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]