Talk:Alfred Clas

partner Shepherd, Shepard, Sheperd, what

Partner last name spelled variously as some NRHP doc writers confuse with other prolific architects of similar name. Currently I believe Prabook on John S. Shepherd with details from birth in England, etc., and Prabook on Alfred C. Clas. --</nowiki>Doncram (talk) 15:33, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

• "Born June 16, 1892 Barnsley, England, United Kingdom ; Died July 4, 1933 (aged 41)" Prabook on John S. Shepherd
• "Mr. Shepherd arrived in the U. S. in 1911, shortly after established residence in Milwaukee. He secured a position as draftsman with the firm of Ferry & Clas, but left within a few years to join A. C. and Ruben Clas in a partnership that was carried on until 1931. Comprising the firm's major works during that period was the Plankinton Hotel in Milwaukee; Whiting Hotel at Steven's Point, Wis. (1920); Nurses Home at the Milwaukee Hospital; Tripoli Temple, and the Rufus King School (1931),, Milwaukee; Lutheran Seminary at Thienville, Wis. (1907); and in addition residences in various cities. At uie time of his death Mr. Shepherd was employed as architect to the City Board of Education." Prabook on John S. Shepherd

Support (seek Milwaukee bd of education, findagrave, obituary in Milwaukee papers, etc.):

• a John Shepherd b. 1823 per 1881 census in Barnsley, Yorkshire, England --Doncram (talk) 15:38, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
• NewspaperArchive search Clas+architect+Wisconsin and ShepherdORShepardORSheperd yields article Manitowoc Herald News Newspaper Archives April 18, 1930 Page 2, with much about teacher Nagle memorial involving Reuben Clas and brother, one naming of firm "Clas, Shepherd and Clas".
• BUT NewspaperArchive search Clas+architect+Milwaukee and ShepherdORShepardORSheperd 1912-1950 (singular architect) yields
  • Sarasota Sunday Times Newspaper Archives July 12, 1925 Page 5 article re loyal Sarasotan Alfred Clas designing Ringling and other homes there states he is "senior member of architectural firm Clas, Shepard & Clas of Milwaukee" and mentions that firm has opened a Sarasota office too
  • HOWEVER ALSO Sarasota Herald 04 Oct 1925, Sarasota, Florida: "structure will be of the italian Type with two stories. Clas Shepherd and Clas are the architects"
• NewspaperArchive search Clas+architects+Milwaukee and ShepherdORShepardORSheperd 1912-1950 (plural architects) yields:
  • Waukesha Freeman Newspaper Archives April 21, 1921 Page 1: "Clas Shepherd & Clas are the architects"
  • Escanaba Daily Press 14 May 1930, Escanaba, Michigan new ornamental grills for Stephenson public library (in Marinette?) doors "were designed by Clas, Shepherd & Clas, architects of Milwaukee"
  • Manitowoc Herald News 30 Jun 1930, Manitowoc, Wisconsin more about teacher Nagle memorial "detailed drawings for the memorial have been completed Clas, Shepherd and Clas, Milwaukee architects"
  • Sarasota Sunday Times 27 Sep 1925, Sarasota, Florida "Herbert J. Grassold, manager of the office of Clas, Shepherd and Clas architects, announce the contract for" first of 10 homes...
  • Sarasota Herald 10 Mar 1929, Sarasota, Florida advertisement for a spec house in Poinsettia Park "designed by Clas Shepherd and Clas architects, Milwaukee, Wis."
• NewspaperArchive search Clas+architects and ShepherdORShepardORSheperd 1912-1950 (plural architects, not Milwaukee) yields:
  • Sarasota Daily Times 10 Nov 1925, Sarasota, Florida "Clas, Shepard and Clas are the architects drawing up the plans."
  • Sarasota Daily Times 01 Sep 1925, Sarasota, Florida "tentative plans for the buildings and the grandstand as submitted by Clas, Shepard & Clas, architects, were approved last night and instructions given the architects to get the building plans ready for immediate cons...

STOPPING, didnt go thru all 500 (max amount) hits.

• From searching in Google books: The American Architect not likely to spell a firm's name wrong. This was probably source for Prabook: 1921 notice of formation of partnership of Clas, Shepherd & Class, here in a google book (though that names sone "Rubens F. Clas", while Nagle teacher memorial item used "Reuben"). --Doncram (talk) 18:51, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
• ARGH, but The American Architect uses "Clas, Shepard & Clas" in notice of their doing some work for Bank of Baraboo, Wisconsin.
• I do trust advertisements more, including this one by a contractor Advertisement by contractor who did doors at Milwaukee Hospital in 1926, in Progressive Architecture, which uses "Clas, Shepherd & Clas".
• The Clay-Worker journal/magazine in 1921 states the architects were "Clas, Shepard & Clas".
  • The Bridgemen's Magazine - Volumes 22-23 - Page 83, in 1922 uses "2200 Cedar street , having plans prepared by Clas , Shepherd & Clas , architects , 445 Milwaukee street...".
• SO, IS CONCLUSION THAT SPELLING VARIED, INCLUDING IN CONTEMPORARY USAGE, although "Shepherd" seems most probably based on advertisements especially, even if we find super official documents, like some signed architectural drawings or other official papers of the firm, which establishes true spelling for sure. --Doncram (talk) 18:51, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Likely misspellings:

• Milwaukee Hospital NRHP dpc: "Wing The West Wing, power plant and laundry additions were built in 1925-1926, designed by Clas, Shepard & Clas, architects, of Milwaukee". Just names firm, no details indicating NRHP author has any familiarity with firm or its partners. I overrode that to use "Shepherd" in Wikipedia article. --Doncram (talk) 15:45, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
• Crisp Building (1926), 1970 Main Street in Sarasota, Florida. NRHP doc: "The building was designed by the architectural firm of Clas and Sheperd..." No supporting details re architects. I overrode that to use Shepherd in wikipedia article. --Doncram (talk) 15:53, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Doncram, thanks for doing all this background research. My only comment is that Prabook isn't a reliable source, so if there are reliable sources to back it up (maybe The American Architect?), those reliable sources should be cited instead. Prabook is a mix of user generated content and content scraped from other sources, like Who's Whos (which typically aren't reliable themselves, per consensus at WP:RSP for Marquis Who's Who and Who's Who (UK)). If it's obvious common sense that "Sheperd" is a typo, that should be fine to correct, but if there's an actual discrepancy, we should go with whatever the most reliable sources we have say. Best, Politanvm ^talk 02:52, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, User:Politanvm, for chiming in. I see however that what's said about Marquis Who's Who, is primarily that it is regarded as unreliable for Wikipedia purposes for establishing Wikipedia notability of a person, which is not relevant here (the firm is already established as notable).

Marquis Who's Who, including its publication Who's Who in America, is considered generally unreliable. As most of its content is provided by the person concerned, editors generally consider Marquis Who's Who comparable to a self-published source. There is a broad consensus that Marquis Who's Who should not be used to establish notability for article topics.

In this situation Prabook is the only source which gives specifics of a full name, i.e. John S. Shepherd, and that he came from England, started in architecture there, etc. It seems to me that however it scraped or obtained its info, it has done good. And the usage of Shepherd vs. Shepard in other sources is running in favor of Shepherd, corroborating Prabook. So, I am inclined to state in the article that the name in contemporaneous usage varied (citing newspaper examples), and also to cite Prabook as a source about John S. Shepherd as full name and as having come from England and started in architecture there. It does not seem reasonable to think Prabook is getting this wrong, in fact it is only reasonable to think they're getting it right because they are using the correct spelling and they found their way to some source(s) which are not showing up online for us. Again, this is not citing a questionable source to establish Wikipedia notability. Note that a Who's Who or IMDB (about movie/TV persons) which accepts self-provided information is likely to be more accurate for allowing covered persons to make corrections about where they are from, say, though I wouldn't necessarily trust them on the self-reported birthdate/age of an actress, say. I see no reason to suspect that John S. Shepherd, long dead, or anyone else, had reason to slant what information Prabook could collect. Okay? --Doncram (talk) 03:33, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Doncram, the sentence about Marquis not showing notability isn't the primary point - it's in addition to it not being a reliable source. But either way that's just one example of an unreliable source that Prabook scrapes. In reality, we have no idea where Prabook got its information, because it's a completely open wiki with no editorial standards.

Self-published sources like Who's Who's and IMDb are almost never considered reliable sources in the context of Wikipedia's reliable sources guidelines (see WP:IMDB for instance). They may happen be correct, but there's no way for us to know if they are correct without validating them with a reliable secondary source.

Prabook is completely unacceptable as a source on Wikipedia. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, and it does seem sensible that "Shepherd" is correct, but it needs to be attributed to a reliable source, not Prabook. Politanvm ^talk 03:46, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

User:Politanvm, I believe your statement "completely unacceptable" is too strong. Prabook is not mentioned at wp:RSP. I am familiar with IMDB, which allows some user-provision of information. wp:RSP about that comments about "majority" of Wikipedia editors not liking its use; I happen to be more in favor of using it, with care, than others on average perhaps, but I am in good company. The RSP passage states "The use of IMDb as an external link is generally considered appropriate"; i personally would always use IMDB about a film or an actor as an external link on an article about the film or actor. The negative essay about it (not policy or guideline) at Wikipedia:Citing IMDb asserts there are acceptable, disputed, and unacceptable usages of IMDB. In the disputed category is "Released films only: Sections such as the cast list, character names, the crew lists, release dates, company credits, awards, soundtrack listing, filming locations, technical specs, alternate titles, running times, and rating certifications." In the unacceptable category are things like "Any potentially contentious material about living persons (BLPs)" and "The trivia and goofs sections that are based on user submissions." Here, it appears to me that prabook got its hands on some info about John S. Shepherd that I can't find online, for which there is no possible reason to be suspicious of anyone claiming credit for anything, like being on a crew, or like claiming to be notable in a Who's Who. John S. Shepherd is long dead, and the info I would cite to prabook is that they came from a certain place in England and had worked in an architecture firm there, which is neutral information, not likely subject to any bias. I'd prefer not to argue here or elsewhere, and that you would back off from intervening in my intended careful, conservative use (like how one can use primary documents, e.g. I might word it as "This source (prabook) states that John S. Shepard came from England", which is 100 percent factual) of this non-banned source. --Doncram (talk) 19:41, 21 September 2022 (UTC)