Jump to content

Talk:Alfred-Maurice de Zayas/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3→Archive 5

Misc

(b. 1947) is a retired senior lawyer with the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, see Alfred de Zayas Private Site in Geneva, former Secretary of the UN Human Rights Committee and former Chief of Petitions, visiting professor of international law at DePaul University College of Law, Chicago, the University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Institut Universitaire de Hautes Etudes Internationales in Geneva, the Geneva School of Diplomacy and International Relations, the American College Switzerland, Leysin, Academie internationale de Droit Constitutionnel, Tunis, Universität Trier, and the Universitad de Alcala de Henares (Madrid), Spain. Consultant in public international law, humanitarian law, human rights law, world war II history (Discovery channel). Areas of expertise: United Nations, Guantanamo, Armenian genocide, Cyprus, Potsdam Conference, Nuremberg Trials.

US-citizen of Spanish-French descent, de Zayas grew up in Chicago. J.D. (Harvard Law School) Dr.phil. in modern history (University of Göttingen). A member of the New York and Florida Bar, he practiced corporate law in New York and family law in Florida, before leaving for Europe in 1974. He was Fulbright Graduate Fellow at the University of Tübingen, senior research fellow at the Max Planck Institut für ausländisches öffentliches Recht und Völkerrecht in Heidelberg. Member, Deutsche Gesellschaft für Völkerrecht. Member of the Beirat of the Zentrum gegen Vertreibungen in Berlin. Since 1991 President of the United Nations Society of Writers in Geneva and editor-in-chief of the literary journal "Ex Tempore". Since 2002 Secretary-General of PEN International, Centre Suisse Romande. Recipient of the "Humanitas Ring" (1998) and of the Walter Eckart Prize for History (2001). Catholic, married, domiciled in Geneva, Switzerland.

www.alfreddezayas.com

Works

rofessor Charles M. Barber, issued in a revised and enlarged paperback edition under the title "A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944-1950", St. Martin's Press, New York, 1994,revised edition to be released January 2006 by Palgrave/Macmillan, New York. "The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945", with the collaboration of Dr. Walter Rabus. Preface by Professor Howard Levie, Picton Press, Rockport, Maine, 4th revised edition 2000, originally published by the University of Nebraska Press. "Die Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle für Verletzungen des Völkerrechts" Universitas Verlag, München, 7th revised edition 2001, prior editions with Ullstein Verlag, Berlin. "Heimatrecht ist Menschenrecht", Universitas Verlag, Munich 2001. "International Human Rights Monitoring Mechanisms", co-editor and co-author with Gudmundur Alfredsson and Bertram Ramcharan , Kluwer, The Hague, 2001. "Human Rights in the Administration of Criminal Justice" in collaboration with Professor Cherif Bassiouni, Transnational Press, New York, 1994.

  • 18 entries in the Encyclopaedia of Public International Law, edited by Rudolf Bernhardt, Elsevier, Amsterdam, Vol. 1-5, 1992-2003, including "United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights", "Combatants", "Spanish Civil War", "Population Expulsion", "Repatriation", "Open Towns", "Curzon Line", "United States Dependent Territories", "European Recovery Program", etc.
  • four entries in the Encyclopedia of Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity, edited by Professor Dinah Shelton, Macmillan, 2004, "Aggression", "Ismail Enver", "Nelson Mandela", and "Raoul Wallenberg".

"The Status of Guantanamo Bay and the Status of the Detainees" in U.B.C. Law Review, Volume 37, Number 2, July 2004, pp. 277-341. "Human Rights and Indefinite Detention" in International Review of the Red Cross, vol. 87 pp. 15-38 (2005). "Petitioning the United Nations", American Society of International Law, Proceedings of the 95th Annual Meeting, April 4-7 2001, Washington D.C., pp. 82-87. "The Twentieth Century's First Genocide: International Law, Impunity, the Right to Reparations, and the Ethnic Cleansing against the Armenians" in Steven Vardy and Hunt Tooley (eds.), Ethnic Cleansing in 20th Century Europe, Columbia University Press, 2003, pp. 157-180, 255-267, 787-804.

  • Foreword to James Bacque, "Crimes and Mercies", Little Brown and Company, London 1997.
  • Foreword to Erich Helfert's "Valley of the Shadow", Creative Arts Book Company, Berkeley 1997.
  • Foreword to Brigitte U. Neary and Holle Schneider-Ricks, "Voices of Loss and Courage", Picton Press, Rockport Maine, 2002.
  • Foreword to Eva Krutein "Eva's War" Amador Publishers, Amador Publishers, 1990, trade paperback, 253 pages, ISBN 0938513087. Story of a German refugee from Danzig at the end of World War II.
  • Foreword to "Genocide of the Ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia 1944-1948", Munich 2003.

Has published poetry in English, French, Spanish, German and Russian. His German poem "Beglückt" was translated into Chinese and published in a literary journal in Shanghai, 2003. See http://www.alfreddezayas.com/Poems/Chinespoem.jpg

http://www.genevadiplomacy.com/?menu_id=6&page_id=15&full=1&faculty_id=24

http://www.armeniaforeignministry.com/conference/speakers.html

de:Alfred de Zayas

He is an advocate of "the right to homeland" as a universal human right.

My family has been expelled from to-day Byelarus. I haven't authorized Mr de Zayas to be my advocate and I have never read any his pro-Polish text. Xx236 13:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The term "advocate of the right to a homeland" does not require nor presume the personal authorisation by every expellee. Mr de Zaya also makes reference to the expelled Poles in his books. The right to a homeland applies to Poles of modern day Belarus and Ukraine as much as it does to Germans of modern day Poland, the Czech Republic and Russia. (pejo)

Restifo 22:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)== Neutrality ==

User:Athena's daughter added Template:POV check to the article without starting a discussion on the talk page, so I am starting one. Her edit summary rationale was "this is a wierd article that portrays a sort of neo-Nazi as a human rights activist". Aside from the rather unwieldy "Selected works" section, I do not see how the article is in a poor state. Does Athena's daughter consider him a "neo-Nazi" because de Zayas has expressed sympathy with one of James Bacque's writings? Olessi 20:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


  • De Zayas is an avid skier, cyclist and scuba-diver - who cares.
  • de Zayas isn't a neo-Nazi, but he used to be attacked by German left, because of his work for the Bundeswehr.

Xx236 07:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

His hobbies can be removed easily- be bold, after all. Criticism of de Zayas from reputable sources can be added, of course. This search.com link, an apparent mirror, has "Some views by Alfred-Maurice de Zayas are controversial, eg. his support of James Bacque's book. His work for the Bundeswehr has been criticised by German left." If the information on that page was taken directly from the WP article at some point, I have not found which version it was taken from or why it was removed. Valid criticism from reputable sources can be added, of course, keeping WP:BLP in mind. Olessi 15:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It was my edit, removed by some anonymous de Zays' fan 81.62.101.49, who didn't care to explain his POV edits.

de Zayas is a complicated author and his interests span a rather large spectrum, as can be confirmed by anyone who ventures into his website. In some areas, like his peace activism and human rights work, he is close to "left wingers" like Noam Chomsky. He has made himself a name by advocating the rights of the "unsung victims" -- the Armenians, the Greeks of Pontos, the Assyrians of Anatolia, the Ukrainians during the Soviet occupation, the Greek Cypriots, the indigeous of North and South America, the aborigenes of Australia, the victims of ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, the victims of indefinite detention in Guantanamo, the victims of rendition and torture, etc. He has also written two important works on the expulsion of the Germans from East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia etc. after world war II, books that were positively reviewed in the American Journal of International Law, American Historical Review, Cambridge Law Journal, Historische Zeitschrift, Archiv des Voelkerrechts, etc. While acknowledging the crimes of the Nazis, he treats the German expellees like other victims of human rights violations. Political correctness in the United States, Great Britain and Germany avoided the subject matter for decades, and only now is the subject being "discovered" by Norman Naimark in the US, Guenther Grass and Wolfgang Benz in Germany. Unlike other authors, de Zayas does not try to explain away or justify the expulsion of 15 million human beings in terms of "collective guilt", but insists that guilt and innocence are individual, not collective phenomena, and that all victims of injustice are entitled to our compassion. This does not make a "revisionist" out of de Zayas.

His Guestbook contains pro-Nazi texts. Shame, shame. Xx236 09:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Says who? Should he erase all the spam that lands on his guestbook?

Wikipedia contributors should go easy with libelous labels such as "neo-Nazi" or "revisionist". I, Johannes van Aggelen, wrote reviews of three books by de Zayas for the Netherlands International Law Review -- all three positive. To even suggest that de Zayas is a "neo Nazi" is so ridiculous that it almost takes your breath away. His numerous human rights and scholarly publications on everything from minority rights to ethnic cleansing, to peacekeeping -- clearly place him left of centre. I am, of course, not blind to the deplorable tendency in some circles in Germany to defame anyone who does not bow to political correctness and who dares to identify crimes committed by the Allies in world war II, and who calls them by name. de Zayas condemns the bombardment of Dresden by the Allies in 1945 as much as he condemns the bombardment of Rotterdam by the Germans in 1940. I would suggest that critics take the time to read de Zayas and not just "about de Zayas". JvA.

I'm also a complicated person, my family was expelled and murdered both by Germans and Soviets. Unfortunately the number of our tragedies wasn't high enough to become interesting for de Zayas. De Zayas published his first book in 1977, Katyn crime was acknowldged as a Soviet crime in 1990, so he had at least 13 years to write at least one sentence about Polish victims. Do you know such sentence? Has de Zayas ever condemned:

  • destruction of the city of Wieluń, during which probably more people were killed than during the bombardment of Rotterdam?
  • destruction of other Polish cities eg. of Sulejów and Frampol?
  • destruction of the city of Warsaw after the 1944 uprising?
  • expulsion of Poles by Soviets 1937-1938?
  • expulsion of Poles by Soviets 1940-1941?
  • expulsion of Poles by Soviets 1945?

Support for Bacque makes de Zayas less reliable.

Google gives mostly BdV and neo-Nazi links for "de Zayas".

De Zayas is responsible for his guestbook. If he doesn't have any time nor money to control it, he should remove it.

You oppose my alleged accusation. I have written: de Zayas isn't a neo-Nazi, but he used to be attacked by German left, because of his work for the Bundeswehr, so your answer is unfair.

It's strange that the article doesn't contain any critics. Either de Zayas is a saint or he/his friends cenzor his opponents.

West Germany had influential organizations of the expelled since at least 1950. The documentation quoted by de Zayas was colleected at least since 1957.

My POV is that de Zayas is one of many who support the rich and influential ones against the victims of WWII, who didn't have influential friends till 1989. Allow me to have my POV.Xx236 14:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

This kind of criticism is ridiculous and defamatory. De Zayas is a brave human rights activist for all victims, including German victims. He is a distinguished lawyer and historian and author of books that have been brilliantly reviewed in the American, British, French and German media. Sympathy for German victims does not make Zayas a "neo-Nazi". It confirms him as an advocate of human rights.


I have asked a number of question regarding hundreds of thousands of Polish victims. I don't find my questions ridiculous. Xx236 15:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

De Zayas does write about the Soviet crime of Katyn in chapter 3 of "Nemesis at Potsdam" and devotes the entirely of Chapter 21 of "The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau" to Katyn. He was interviewed live on CNN on Katyn in 1990.

The expulsion of Poles by Soviets is also briefly dealt with in "Nemesis at Potsdam" and in his many articles on population transfer and ethnic cleansing.

It is advisable to read de Zayas before one criticizes him.

You seem to be reacting to the "subject matter" that de Zayas writes about, but cannot mention a concrete point of disagreement.

Does De Zayas write about ethnic expulsion plans made by German Empire in First World War against Jews and Poles ? Also does he write about first modern expulsion of people, which took place in Germany in 1885 and was aimed against Poles and Jews under orders of Bismarck ? How much does he write about the effect Pangermanism had on plans to exterminate and expell Polish people from German held terriotries both in WW1 and WW2 ? Does he mention the influence Selbstshutz played in final decision to remove German minority and how German discrimination of Poles and colonisation of Polish territories that took place in Imperial Germany. Is he interested only in European people, or did he write about the genocide of Herero people as well ? --KrzysztofM 20:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=93911145977033 On the one hand, the chapter by de Zayas makes wild accusations --KrzysztofM 20:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

http://www.uni-kassel.de/~schneid/geschpol3.html Seidler ist Professor an der Bundeswehr Hochschule in München und gilt - neben Alfred de Zayas - als einer der renommierten Apologeten der Wehrmach

Wild accusations, apologetic towards Wehrmacht. --KrzysztofM 20:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


Defended David Irving: http://www.politikforen.de/archive/index.php/t-33743.html Der Völkerrechtler Prof. Alfred de Zayas, ehemaliger Sekretär des UNO-Menschenrechtsausschusses, schreibt dazu in einem Leserbrief (Auszug): "Ich teile die Meinung von Andreas Wild, daß der PEN-Club seine Hilfsmaßnahmen überdenken muß, denn zu oft schützen wir nur die politisch-korrekten Opfer und vergessen die inkorrekten wie David Irving. Unsere Arbeit hat wenig Glaubwürdigkeit, wenn wir schweigen, als Historiker wie David Irving inhaftiert wurde. [..] Das einschlägige österreichische Strafgesetzbuch (wie übrigens das deutsche auch) ist menschenrechtsfeindlich und inkompatibel mit Art. 19 des UN-Paktes über bürgerliche und politische Rechte. Aber nicht einmal der UN-Menschenrechtsausschuß wagt es, diese Feststellung zu treffen. Auch der MRA muß seine oft feige, politisch-korrekte Haltung überdenken." --KrzysztofM 20:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC) 

    To call de Zayas a "revisionist" or "neo-Nazi" is absurd and defamatory (had he been a resident of Nazi Germany, the Nazis probably would have eliminated him as an enemy of the Third Reichand the Fuehrer).  De Zayas is a well known human rights activist and member of many left-wing and left-oriented human rights organizations.  His books have been positively reviewed in scholarly journals in the United States, England, France, Germany, Austria, etc.(see his personal site).  He is a retired senior lawyer with the UN and a friend and collaborator of UN high commissioners.

     De Zayas writes about many "unsung victims" of violations of human rights and fights for the recognition of the common human dignity of all victims -- whether Armenian, Cypriot, Greek, Jewish, indigenous, or German.  This does not make him a revisionist.  This is consistent with his life-long human rights perspective.  Restifo 22:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

DeZayas a fine man

I have known Alfred de Zayas for ten years, before that I knew him through his books. I have never heard a word that was anything other than supportive of the civil and human rights and the human dignity of ALL groups. His belief in the universal application of human and civil rights has caused (for example) the Turkish right wing to hate him (because of his stand on Cyprus and the Armenian Genocide), probably some other fanatic nationalist groups as well.

He is a man of high moral values and his lifetime work for the good of the oppressed should be praised and held up as something that should be copied by more men of letters. His courage is unique, his energy astounding. All the best, K C Schemm, Jr

It is absolutely not true that de Zayas defends David Irving. De Zayas takes a position of principle which applies across the board to all persons who have different views from ours.. He defends the principle of article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which guarantees the right "to seek and impart information". De Zayas is against the misuse of criminal law for purposes of censorship and intimidation.. In America the right to freedom of expression is guaranteed in article 1 of the Bill of Rights. This is a precious right for every democracy. Surely it is not the function of lawyers to legislate on history. Nor is it the function of judges to punish individuals for "crimes of thought" or for the expression of dissident ideas. The whole purpose of the right to freedom of expression is to protect the right of those with whom one does NOT agree. Such laws criminalizing open discussion of historical events are simply totalitarian, and Professor de Zayas, the long-time secretary of the United Nations Human Rights Committee rightly criticises the totalitarian trends in our "politically correct" societies.

The author Kryzstof cites some abstruse sources to defame de Zayas. Why does he not cite the brilliant reviews of his books in the American Jourtnal of International Law, Cambridge Law Journal, Netherlands International Law Review, etc. ? Has Kryzstof read any of de Zayas' books? Or articles in the American Journal of International Law, Harvard International Law Journal, Criminal Law Forum, Archiv des Völkerrechts, etc. ? By the way, de Zayas was absolutely correct and has been proven right in his pointed criticism of Goldhagen's racist theses, which by now have been discarded by all serious historians and sociologists. Best wishes, Dr. Thomas Gertner, attorney-at law, Bad Ems (Germany)

Another self proclaimed specialist on Wiki ? Nothing new, there are millions of attorneys in the world. Why didn't "Why does he not cite the brilliant reviews" Because we seek neutrality and criticism has also be mentioned. I could also point out how revisionists sites have brilliant reviews of him, this should bee mentioned as well. As to "racism of Goldhagen" and Irvings "crimes of thought"(Holocuast Denial)-no comment needed. Interesting that nobody answered my questions: Does De Zayas write about ethnic expulsion plans made by German Empire in First World War against Jews and Poles ? Also does he write about first modern expulsion of people, which took place in Germany in 1885 and was aimed against Poles and Jews under orders of Bismarck ? How much does he write about the effect Pangermanism had on plans to exterminate and expell Polish people from German held terriotries both in WW1 and WW2 ? Does he mention the influence Selbstshutz played in final decision to remove German minority and how German discrimination of Poles and colonisation of Polish territories that took place in Imperial Germany. Is he interested only in European people, or did he write about the genocide of Herero people as well ? --KrzysztofM 07:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear Krzysztof, now, now, de Zayas cannot write about all victims of human rights violations in the world. He has written about Guantanamo, about the indigenous of North and South America, about the Armenians. Have you read his more than 25 encyclopaedia articles in the Encyclopaedia of Public International Law, Encyclopaedia of Genocide, Concise Encyclopaedia of the United Nations, Ostfriesisches Lexikon, Lexikon der deutschen Einheit etc. -- including entries on Nelson Mandela and Raoul Wallenberg? Are you aware that US Ambassador Robert Murphy, a participant at the Potsdam Conference and political advisor of Eisenhower wrote the preface of "Nemesis at Potsdam", that Professor Howard Levie, one of the foremost experts in the law on prisoners of war wrote the preface of "The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau", that Professor Charlie Barber, a left-wing Democrat and candidate to the US Congress wrote the preface to "A Terrible Revenge"? It is evident you do not like some of de Zayas' topics. Why don't you just forget his books on Germany and concentrate on his human rights publications on minorities, on Cyprus, on the Istanbul Pogrom of 1955 ? You will find his legal opinion on the Armenian genocide on the website of the Armenian foreign ministry, and his legal opinion on the "Annan Plan" for Cyprus in the Cyprus Yearbook on International Relations. He has also appeared before the European Parliament on the Cyprus issue, together with famous professors like the Canadian Peter Burns, the Swiss Andreas Auer or the Brit Malcolm Shaw. He has been on panels of the American Society of International Law in Washington, together with Professor Anne Bayefsky, and on panels of the Netherlands Society of International Law in The Hague, together with the first High Commissioner for Human Rights, Dr. Ayala Lasso. Or you may forget politics and read his translations of Rainer Maria Rilke into English ("Larenopfer" bilingual commented edition, Red Hen Press, Los Angeles, reviewed by Professor August Stahl, President of the Rainer Maria Rilke Society in Sierre, Switzerland), or you may read his translations of Eichendorff and Hermann Hesse. You may finds these more to your liking.

I still didn't get an answer. It is interesting that De Zayas concentrates on "misfortune" of Germans but forgets why the misfortune happened. --KrzysztofM 15:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Krzyzstof, From what you have written above, it appears to me that you are a Polish fanatic, interested only in the suffering of the Polish people. Compare de Zayas: an American of Spanish-French ancestry who writes the truth about all the ethnicides he has studied. He is neither a German nor an Armenian, but sets the record right as to what was done to those peoples. He is not an American Indian, but he is passionate in his telling of the wrongs done to them. De Zayas can't write the history of the world. Not writting about Polish suffering may upset you, but I can assure you that de Zayas is not blind to the suffering of the Polish people. You refer to the "misfortune" (in quotes, as if this word is not true) that occured to the Germans of Eastern Europe and then state that de Zayas "forgets why the misfortune happened." Are you familiar with his book, "The Terrible Revenge?" What does his choice of the word "revenge" in the title tell you?

My advice is to write Prof de Zayas a nice letter, and ask him if he can research the wrongs done to Poles as well, he is a good enough person that perhaps he will try to do so. Calling him names for failing to do research into historical documents in a language he does not speak does not seem very productive to me. I view your comments against Prof de Zayas to date as slander by a fanatic. I hope if you keep them up that he will take legal action against you. KCS

The wrongs that have been done on Poles are historically recognised around the world. Neither Germany nor any other country has laws in place that state otherwise. Germany has dealt with her past like no other country in Europe since WW II. Germany paid and is still paying millions in damages to victims of the War, including Polish slave labourers and victims of the Holocaust. It is one of the driving forces of the reconciliation process in Europe. Germany remains the EUs largest net contributor despite the fact that its per capita GDP is only slightly above avarage and substantially lower than that of net receivers like Ireland or the UK. Poland's growing wealth is mainly built on German money. Germany provides examplary minority protection to her Slavic (Sorbs) minority with bilingual signage in the entire historical area of settlement of the Sorb minority. Bilingual signage in Poland (opole/Oppeln) has not even been put up yet in areas where Germans still constitute 20% of the population. If German minority protection standards were applied in Poland, most of Silesia, Pomerania and Masuria were officially bilingual. (pejo)

Irving and freedom of speach

Irving has sued Deborah Lipstadt. It means that Irving cares for freedom of speach for Irving, but not for his opponents.

Irving's methods are the same as used by Soviet genocide deniers. Xx236 08:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Slander against Mr DeZayas

My mother used to tell me as a little boy that it is wrong to lie. If you lie on earth or try to hide the truth it is only a matter of time before the truth of any actual occurrence will come to light. It might take 10 years or it might take 100 years, but as sure as night is day the truth shall prevail. Before God you can never hide the truth. It is wrong to throw slander at people of good character who only seek to bring the truth to light about any injustices of history. I admire Mr de Zayas who is a man of integrity and I am extremely grateful for his contribution to the truthful history of Europe as a whole. Sean.

In his writings about history of Europe as a whole does De Zayas write about ethnic expulsion plans made by German Empire in First World War against Jews and Poles ? Also does he write about first modern expulsion of people, which took place in Germany in 1885 and was aimed against Poles and Jews under orders of Bismarck ? How much does he write about the effect Pangermanism had on plans to exterminate and expell Polish people from German held terriotries both in WW1 and WW2 ? Does he mention the influence Selbstshutz played in final decision to remove German minority and how German discrimination of Poles and colonisation of Polish territories that took place in Imperial Germany. Is he interested only in European people, or did he write about the genocide of Herero people as well ? I am really interested about that. --KrzysztofM 15:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

When in 1885 did an expulsion of Poles and Jews ordered by Bismark take place? Do you have references about this expulsion? How many people were affected? From where and to where were these people expelled? (pejo)

How many layers

Are employed by UN ? Is it special position or is he just one amongst many. --KrzysztofM 16:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Krzysztof

I find it highly interesting how some Poles (not all) seem to view any support for expelled Germans as a personal attack on them or the Polish state.

Even most Polish historians recognise that the expulsion of the Germans drom PL, CZ (just like the expulsion of the Poles from modern day BY, UKR) was indeed genocide and a crime against humanity.

These people lost their property and identity (the second is often more important than the first) only due to the language they spoke (or better: the language their mother happened to teach them). It is one thing to expell, expropriate and punish known Nazi criminals. It is another to exepell an entire nation from their native land.

It is universally recognised that the former areas of settlement of the Germans now belong to the Polish, Czech and Russian states. The same applies to former Polish areas in the Ukraine or Belarus. However, this does not mean that expellees have no right to reclaim their personal property or claim the right to cultural and linguistic protection in their native land. Nobody is suggesting to take away any private property from Polish individuals. Restitution could be limited to state owned property with additional financial compensation for German and Polish expellees drawn from a joint German/POlish/Czech/EU fund. Poland should put up bilingual signs in formerly German speaking areas in the same way the entire historic Sorb speaking area in Lusatia is bilingual, regardless of the percentage of minority speakers left.

Instead of personally attacking Mr de Zayas, a very honourable man who has never been and will never be Anti-Polish, you should spend time convincing your Polish politicians to do something for German and POlish expellees in Germany, Poland, Belarus and the Ukraine in the spirit of reconciliation and equal rights for everyone. This is the only way we can build a fair, peaceful and truely reconciled Europe of the future.

Peter (pejo)


PLEASE, stop the nonsense with "revisionism" and such labels. The important question is whether the author is telling the truth, and whether his methodology is proper. The books of de Zayas are meticilously researched and his methodology is unassailable. The real question is why have other professional historians avoided this subject matter? Why has it been swept under the carpet for so long?

I have read all of the books by de Zayas and consider him a pioneer -- both as an historian and as a human rights lawyer.

Wikipedia readers must avoid defamation and mobbing.

Other readers who can and care to read will want to actually read his works and then make up their own minds.

And, regarding revisionists and revisionisms at large; if not for them, people today might actually still believe in the propoganda that the Nazi's made soap and lampshades out of their victims, that the Massacre of Polish officers in Katyan forest was a Nazi atrocity, that there were 4Million Jews gassed at Aushwitz (current numbers spouted by the museum itself lists about 1.5 million total deaths). Of course, some people STILL believe these wrongful 'facts' and brand anyone who attempts to correct them as hateful anti-semite, neo-nazis! These people need to wake up and understand that history is to be examined and re-examined for the truth! Revisionism and revisionists are not evil!

Heinz 209.246.17.74 21:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

maybe these reviews are helpful

Nemesis at Potsdam (Picton Press, Rockland Maine, 6th revised edition, 2003. German version Die Nemesis von Potsdam, Herbig Verlag, Munich, 14th revised and enlarged edition 2005.

"His is a lucid, scholarly and compassionate study. Most pertinently he insists that we deny what the lesser histories conspire with us to invent--that there are stopping places in history." Tony Howarth, Times Educational Supplement

"The author traces the genesis of the relevant territorial arrangements and ensuing population trnasfers and then gives a well-documented and horrifying account of the exodus, the sufferings and deaths of millions, the ruthlessness of the new masters -- a travesty of the 'orderly and humane' fashion in which the measures were supposed to be carried out." William Guttmann, Observer

"These Volksdeutsche were tragic figures, unfortunate enough to have been located in the wrong areas at precisely the wrong times. The circumstances leading to their abysmal situation are tellingly related by de Zayas in this most important work." Norman Lederer, Worldview

"An interesting, well-written, and important book covering a topic on which almost nothing has appeared in English" Choice

"The lesson from this well-organized and moving historical record is not merely that retribution which penalizes innocent human beings becomes injustice, but that acceptance of political realities may be a better road to human fulfilment than the path of violence. Alfred de Zayas has written a persuasive commentary on the suffering which becomes inevitable when humanitarianism is subordinated to nationalism" Benjamin Ferencz, American Journal of International Law

"Books such as this ... deserve a respectful welcome. There can be no dispute that the eviction and resettlement of some 16 million people which occurred in Eastern Europe at the end of the war caused enormous suffering. It is important that authors such as Mr. de Zayas should form time to time remind us of man's inhumanity to man." Michael Balfour in International Affairs

"L'ouvrage est édifiant et sera pour beaucoup une révélation. M. de Zayas n'est pas tendre pour les Alliés, qui ont fermé les yeux sur l'une des entreprises les plus inhumaines de l'histoire de la civilisation occidentale, la responsabilité des démocraties anglo-saxonnes étant a cet egard primordiale." Revue Générale de Droit International Public

In minuziöser Quellenarbeit zeigt de Zayas, dass in Polen und der Tschechoslowakei schon lange vor dem Krieg die Absicht gehegt wurde, die dort wohnhaften Deutschen aus ihrer rund 700-jährigen Heimat zu vertreiben. Beide Staaten missachteten ihre völkerrechtlichen Verpflichtungen zum Schutz von Minderheiten ... De Zayas erkennt darin einem Präzedenzfall fuer spätere Vertreibungen in Palästina, Zypern, Bosnien oder Kosovo. Sein engagiertes Wirken gegen solche 'Kriegsstrategien' hat bedeutdenden Anteil daran, dass sich das Recht auf die Heimat in den letzten Jahren als fundamentales Menschenrecht etablieren konnte. Patrick Sutter in der Neuen Zürcher Zeitung, 2006.

Reviews of The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau (Picton Press, 4th revised edition, 2000. German version Die Wehrmacht Untersuchungsstelle (Universitas Verlag, Munich, 7th edition 2001)

"De Zayas is undoubtedly one of the world's leading legal scholars addressing forced population transfers ... [his] work provides massive confirmation of the truism that atrocities are committed in war by all sides, that many go unpunished, and some are part of national policy....the possibility that truth might be misused in argument by the devil is not a reason to suppress truth. I have no personal doubt that this book is a useful attempt to preserve an important truth. By writing it, the author -- whose own humanitarian sympathies are beyond question, as is Levie's scholarly detachment --has done a service to scholarship." Alfred Rubin in The Fletcher Forum

"Every victim of inhumanity, regardless of nationality, race or creed, should be inteitled to the equal protection of the law. The stated primary purpose of this interesing and well-written work is to hlep minimize the vicolations of international law in any future armed conflicts. if that goal is to be achieved, it is not enough merely to know that the rules are often broken by all sides. Americans learned that leasson at My Lai. There must be continuous improvement in the codes in order to meet the changing modes of warfare. There must be inculcation and acceptance of humanitarian values, even in time of war. Most important, there must be a more certain, objective, and effective judicial machinery, national and international, to improve the enforcement of international law and the rules of war. The de Zayas book shed light on a problem that has not yet been resolved." Benjamin B. Ferencz, American Journal of International Law.

"The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1495 is a fascinating book. It is well-organized and elegantly written ... a sobering new look at the Second World War and ourselves .. With the appearance of this new book ... our innocence comes to an official end." Arnold Krammer, Journal of Soviet Military Studies

"The facts were painstakingly resarched by the author. Archives were consulted and cross-checked and survivors interviewed. It is an academic job well done, and a must for students of small islands of sanity in the ocean of madness called war" Lt.-Gen. G.C. Berkhof, Netherlands International Law Review

"thoroughly and skillfully researched"- Col. Ernest Fischer in Army

"This well-written book, which is based on thorough research of original sources... triggered a broad discussion... It is timely and necessary to discuss the legal, sociological and psychological problems involved in the investigation of war crimes during and after armed conflicts." Dieter Fleck, in Archiv des Völkerrechts

"a well-founded book" Professor Norman Stone in the Sunday Times, London

"an excellent book" Professor Christopher Greenwood in The Cambridge Law Journal

"an important book" Professor L.F.E. Goldie in the American Journal of International Law

Reviews of A Terrible Revenge new revised edition (Palgrave/Macmillan, New York, 2006) German version Die deutschen Vertriebenen, Leopold Stocker Verlag/Ares, Graz 2006.

"This popularly written but still scholarly study follows the author's other successful books in the fields of history and international law [which] were hailed by historians as well as lawyers as masterpieces of academic craftsmanship. His book.presents in a nutshell the history of the ethnic German population which had settled in the early 13th century in large parts of what is nowadays Eastern Europe." Netherlands International Law Review

"The author has given the history of these expulsions a dramatic immediacy through a series of eyewitness accounts ...The remarkable sequel to this recital of inhumanity is that this displaced population has, in the 50 years since the war, managed to find a new home in a reunited Germany where nearly 20 percent of the population is made up of first- or second-generation descendants of these exiled millions." Army

"Western historians have long averted their eyes from the stupendous crime authoritatively described by Alfred-Maurice de Zayas in this grim, essential book. The author has impeccable credentials for this work: a law degree from Harvard, a doctorate in history at Göttingen, mastery of five languages. He has worked in foreign archives and interviewed many survivors for this book, his fourth. For many years he has been a senior legal adviser on human rights to an international organization in Switzerland... The author conservatively takes the lowest available estimate of the deaths: over two million people died in the expulsions...." Otttawa Citizen

"De Zayas, a lawyer, historian and human rights expert specializing in refugees and minorities, has uncovered testimony in German and American archives detailing these atrocities, adding a new chapter to the annals of human cruelty. His carefully documented book serves as a reminder that many different peoples have been subjected to ethnic cleansing." Publishers weekly

"In stark and gruesome detail, Mr. de Zayas presents the personal testimony of literally dozens upon dozens of these German victims during those years of expulsion. Soviet soldiers were given carte blanche to rape and plunder tens of thousands of people. In their thirst for revenge, Soviet troops gang-raped women over and over ... Though the American government did not overtly endorse the brutalities that accompanied the expulsions of the Germans, support for the deportation of these millions of people was laid down as official U.S. policy while the war was still in progress." The Future of Freedom Foundation

"Fast ein Klassiker" Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, 2006

Reviews of Heimatrecht ist Menschenrecht (Universitas Verlag, Munich 2001:

"The central thesis of this unique and timely book is that the right to one's homeland belongs to the most fundamental human rights, since its observance by state and non-state actors is a prerequisite for the enjoyment of most other human rights. Indeed, human rights are not exercised in a vacuum, but in a concrete geographical and temporal context, which is most frequently the place where one was born, where one's historical and cultural links lie. The denial of the right to live in one's homneland by mass expulsion or ethnic cleansing entails not only the obvious violation of the right to self-determination, which is considered by many international legal experts as jus cogens, but a breach of most civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights." Netherlands International Law Review

Excerpts of review of: Rainer Maria Rilke: "Larenopfer" (bilingual commented edition, translated by A. de Zayas)

"Ebenfalls ganz neu und frisch ist die erste Übersetzung von Rilkes zum Jahresende 1895 erschienenem Gedichtband Larenopfer ins Englische. Die Übersetzung stammt von Alfred de Zayas (einem Mitglied der Rilke-Gesellschaft wie Frau Ada Brodsky), und sie liegt vor als eine »Bilingual Edition«. Selbst für deutschsprachige Leser ist ein solches Unternehmen eine große Hilfe. Das Nebeneinander der Texte, des Originals und seiner Übersetzung, bringt einen Dialog in Gang, der sehr zum Gewinn auch für den muttersprachlichen Lesers werden kann. Gelegentlich entdeckt man erst im Vergleich die besondere, von der Regel abweichende Wortwahl, die syntaktischen Figuren, die Ausklammerungen, und auch dies: die spezielle Bildlichkeit, die sich im anderen Medium nicht wiederholen läßt. Die im Namen der Brunnenromantik (»holde Brunnenpoesie«) formulierte Kritik an der modernen Wasserversorgung im Gedicht Brunnen (S. 46) macht besonders die Übertragung ins Englische deutlich. Und schon der bestimmte Artikel in der Übersetzung des Titels (Brunnen -- The Fountain) macht auf die Besonderheit aufmerksam, verweist auf die Identität in der Differenz. Was Alfred de Zayas mit seiner Übersetzung erreicht, eine erneute und intensive Beschäftigung mit dem Rilkeschen Text, das erreicht auf einem ganz anderen Weg der Altmeister der Rilke-Philologie: Walter Simon." Professor August Stahl in the Blätter der Rilke Gesellschaft, 2005, page 275

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.169.133.249 (talk • contribs).

Thank you. First of all, please sign your posts in talk pages, to identify who said what. Second, the above wasn't really necessary. There are plenty of reviews that may be found on internet, in particular at de Zayas's own website, eg. here

I, Dr. Dr. Johannes van Aggelen, believe that the archived discussion was lopsided. What is important is to come to grips with the questions raised in the books of de Zayas, and not to discuss who likes or dislikes him. The talk page of the German article in Wikipedia contains ridiculous allegtions by some authors who evidently would prefer that the subject matter of some of the books by de Zayas had remained tabu. True, de Zayas did break two important tabus, and this has brought him both recognition and ad hominem attacks. Only now are Germans starting to ponder the human rights aspects of the expulsion and its wider implications in the context of ethnic cleansing. The first UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Dr. Jose Ayala Lasso, did recognize the negative precedent value of the expulsions and deplored the discrimination among victims, which remains prevalent to our days. JvA.
I see your worries, but once again, as long as the article remains balanced, you don't have to engage in verbal fights in talk pages. According to wikipedia rule "No original researh", any personal opinions in the talk pages cannot influence article's content. The only valid sources of changes are published reliable sources. So please don't vaste your valuable time on "lopsided" discussions. Each time they go off track, you simply ask the opponent: "what are your suggested changes and what published sources support them?" `'mikka 17:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Once again, please think carefully what I wrote: we have to discuss the article about de Zayas, not de Zayas himself. If you really want to contribute to wikipedia, please think about writing articles about other de Zayas books, similarly to A Terrible Revenge article. Notice, however, that wikipedia has certain rules about writing articles, which basicvally say that all fact s and opinions you contribute to wikipedia articles must be already published in reputable sources; see the corresponding policies WP:VERIFIABILITY, WP:CITE, "reliable sources". `'mikka 23:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Alfred de Zayas; A man of compassion, humanity and TRUTH.

I have never met Alfred de Zayas but he is clearly a man of compassion and truth which shines through when the time is taken to study his works with an unbiased mind. He believes in the right to ones homeland and to anybody who doesn’t believe in this I would ask this; as you sit there in front of your computer in your own home with your children running around, with warmth, peace and tranquillity around you; don’t you have a right to this, a right to live in peace in your own home in the country which you were born in? Or, if not, would it be ok to evict you and your children into the streets with no money, clothes, possessions just because of the actions of somebody else of the same race, culture or creed to yourselves. This is partly what gave Alfred de Zayas the label of controversial when he gave light to the horrors endured by, amongst others, ethnic-German children who were raped, murdered and suffered horrors which I’m sure Wikipedia would not allow me to describe in detail, just because of the actions of others many miles away. Being a well versed lawyer de Zayas has protested for many years against the concept of collective guilt and the barbaric punishment of the innocent. To those who object to this I just wonder how you would feel if your family suffered unimaginable horrors due to the actions of, say a British or American soldier in any of the current war zones around the world. Would you be ok about that or would you then start to agree with de Zayas in objecting to the concept of collective guilt and the punishment of the innocent? This is what Alfred de Zayas has protested against for many years and I for one would stand beside him, shoulder to shoulder, and support him in his quest for a humane world where the innocent are not treated as criminals just because of their nationality, ethnicity, colour, creed, race, religion or beliefs etc. Alfred de Zayas has also been accused of revisionism. If telling the truth is wrong; if telling history as it was and not as our respective governments and educational establishments would have us believe is wrong then so be it, but history is always evolving as new facts become available. This is not revisionism it is just telling the TRUTH. I agree with another comment which said that if de Zayas was in Nazi Germany he would have been disposed of as an enemy of the state; but we live in a free society so lets not dispose of him as an enemy of free compassionate speech but support him as a spokesperson of the humanity, compassion and truthfulness with which we should all treat each other. Read his books; study his works and then object to his considerations on collective guilt, unlawful internment and conviction of the innocent, be it adult or child……..if you can. I have chose not to edit others’ points of view as I and no doubt de Zayas agree that only by open unedited dialogue can the world be understood and made a better place. We all have the right to freedom of speech, freedom from oppression and the right to ones home; all of which are key points in the works of Alfred de Zayas.Doug 13:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alfred-Maurice_de_Zayas/Archive_1&oldid=786772377"