Talk:Alexander Rudnay

Page title

The original title was Alexander Rudnay and it was moved to Sándor Rudnay without a aproper discussion. Google Books source indicate that Alexander Rudnay is more common: 2.930 results vs. 307 results. User:Rovibroni, please stop the move war and present your arguments here Raysdiet (talk) 13:03, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Sources for Slovak ethnicity

User:Rovibroni, please expose your arguments. Why did you remove the sources added by me? [1] Raysdiet (talk) 13:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Sándor Rudnay de Rudnó et Divékujfalu

Where is this name from? It does not appear in any source Raysdiet (talk) 09:31, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Markó, Szinnyei and this all mention his noble title (de Rudna et Divékujfalu), which means rudnai és divékujfalusi. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:11, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Origin

Alexander Rudnay was born to a family of lower nobility, which originated from the gens (clan) Divék. The Rudnay family also preserved its coat of arms from the genus: a brown bear under an extensive foliage of tee with blue background

I could not find anywhere in the sources this information. I saw that there is a Rudnay family originating from gens (clan) Divék, but it was not mentioned that there is the same Rudnay family (there is possible to be 2 families with the same name). If you bring the quote, please also offer here the hu-en translation Raysdiet (talk) 09:40, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I provided the source, Iván Nagy also mentions Sándor Rudnay in his work. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:11, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Fakirbakir, can you please provide the exact quote where it's affirmed that this is a Hungarian clan? Raysdiet (talk) 13:33, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Cited:" Újfalussy: ....A honfoglaló 108 nemzetség egyikéből, az u. n. Divék-törzsből származott, épp ugy, mint a Bossányi, Rudnay, Rudnyánszky, Zsámbokréthy stb. családok...." Translation: "Újfalussy (family): they originated from one of the 108 conqueror generas (clans), so-called, tribe Divék, similarly to Bossányi, Rudnay, Rudnyánszky, Zsámbokréthy etc families..." Fakirbakir (talk) 13:54, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Source

Why was this source: Mária Vyvíjalová, Alexander Rudnay v kontexte slovenského národnoobrodenského hnutia deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raysdiet (talk • contribs) 09:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Please stop edit war and answer why you disregard this source Raysdiet (talk) 10:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

This source does not prove anything. Mária Vyvíjalová's work Slovakized Hungarian names (Rudnay and Dőry). Sourced do not mention that they were Slovaks. If you search for Máté Csák in Slovak publications, you can see the name variant of Matúš Čák Trenčiansky. As Naplóeon for Napoleon Bonaparte in Hungarian language, but these are incorrect forms. Rudnay was a Hungarian cardinal from an ancient noble family from the 14th century. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:11, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Your opinion is biased. Why isn't András a Magyarized Slovak name? The original forms from old documents were probably in Latin. The Slav (most probably Slovak) ethnicity is clear ("Slavus sum") Raysdiet (talk) 11:17, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

"probably", "most probably", it does not seem that these would be sources. However for my part, I provided relevant sources from lexicons and a geneology work, which also contains coat-of-arms, family tree, list of estates... So, your opinion is the one that biased. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:22, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't contest coat-of-arms, family tree, list of estates anymore. But the self-declaration shows that the person was not an ethnic Hungarian. My problem is that you keep deleting MY sources that present the Slovak version of the parents' names Raysdiet (talk) 11:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Not necessarily. It alsou could mean identity instead of ethnicity. Anyway he desribed himself as a Slav and not a Slovak. As a Hungarian noble and cardinal, he was a patron of Slav culture and literature. this conclusion, which says that then"he was a Slovak" is doubtful. Significant difference. Your source contain only Hungarian names with Slovak variant. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:35, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Hungarian noble and cardinal - here Hungarian defines citizenship, not ethnicty. It alsou could mean identity instead of ethnicity - and what defines ethnicity if not self-identification? Hungarian names with Slovak variant - this is a biased opinion. Andrej is the Slovak variant of the Hungarian name Andras, but in the same time Andrej is the Hungarian variant of the Slovak name Andrej Raysdiet (talk) 11:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes it could be, but sources confirm his Hungarian nationality (he was born into an old noble family which originated from the clan Divék, one of the ancient 108 genera of the Kingdom of Hungary). --Norden1990 (talk) 12:07, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I make a little change in the names order, not to say that the Slovak name has precedence. I hope you agree with the current version Raysdiet (talk) 15:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok. --Norden1990 (talk) 16:15, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

You write "Ok", but you modify it [2]. Why was this edit a correction? Raysdiet (talk) 17:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

You said: "I make a little change in the names order, not to say that the Slovak name has precedence". So I put the Hungarian name to the first place, as you did at Anna Dőry's. Secondly, I corrected her Slovak name variant (Dőryová). Thirdly, we put point before the reference. --Norden1990 (talk) 17:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I put the Slovak names in the first position in the infobox, for compensation (to avoid discussions about which of the two has priority) Raysdiet (talk) 21:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi there, I found some sources which claim that Alexander Rudnay had Slav/Slovak ancestry and it seems that even himself felt that way (at least the quote in the article supports this). Do we have sources which would directly claim his Hungarian ethnicity? I saw the family tree, coat of arms, etc., but deducing his ethnicity indirectly from these looks like WP:OR. If there are no direct sources, we should leave the lede as it is. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 17:13, 27 May 2013 (UTC)