Talk:Alessandro Orsini (sociologist)/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Another leading source summary

Christiane Olivo, specializing in the politics of social dissent in post-Communist East-Central Europe, found Orsini to have produced a trenchant work on the way of thinking of fascists; she admired Orsini's portrayal of Fascism as a "spiritual way of life" grounded in the rejection of, according to him, bourgeoisie individualism.

This, to me, is tabloid-style dog whistle writing. ("She admired that Orsini portrayed fascism as spiritual" ... really???) User:SashiRolls, would you like to try your hand at a summary? --Andreas JN466 07:17, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

This is Silverseren's drafting. And imo, quite accurate. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:18, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

You would say that, as it's actually your wording. Andreas JN466 07:24, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Whose was the original wording?

The review has:

A striking feature of this study is its emphasis on Fascism as a spiritual way of life [...]

So, your objection lies in:

(1) parsing "striking" as "admiration".

(2) parsing "emphasis" as "portrayal". TrangaBellam (talk) 07:39, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I gave it a try, but am not overly convinced by the result. :/ -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 09:05, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I much prefer it to what we had. It communicates some of the actual flavour of the review. Andreas JN466 10:40, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

How about adding a reference to what is said in the concluding two sentences of the review? Something like: Olivio notes Orsini's declaration that "the most effective way to fight violence is to get to know it" and concludes that the book serves as a warning of the existence of a serious grassroots fascist movement. Dronkle (talk) 11:47, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Is there a source that compares Orsini's approach in different books of his? It strikes me that his talk of the "spiritual" way of life of the fascists exactly parallels his talking about the "religious" mindset of the BR. So he isn't giving the fascists a favourable gloss in referring to this spirituality. He's saying that they have exactly the same distorted ways of thinking as their equally fanatical political opponents. He might even say that in this book. But it needs someone with access to academic resources to check otherwise this will violate WP:SYNTHESIS or whatever it's called. Dronkle (talk) 10:53, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. Orsini seems to argue that the motivation for terrorism is ultimately a misguided religious impulse (the review discussed here speaks of "the creation of a parallel world that allows the militants to escape from bourgeois society"), and that this kind of utopian thinking is pretty much universal, or has the same roots, across the spectrum of ideologies. This naturally pisses off those scholars who are focused on tracing the unique historical circumstances of each group. Orsini might say they can't see the wood for the trees; they on the other hand might say that he runs the risk of overgeneralising. I think both viewpoints have potential merit. However, I am not aware at this moment of any sources containing a similar discussion. I agree it might be worth having a look. Andreas JN466 11:00, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

@Dronkle See the abstract of Orsini's book itself here (the site also offers a pdf of the entire book): Orsini has devised a micro-sociological theory that allows him to reconstruct the group dynamics leading to political homicide in extreme-left and neonazi terrorist groups. This "subversive-revolutionary feedback theory" states that the willingness to mete out and suffer death depends, in the last analysis, on how far the terrorist has been incorporated into the revolutionary sect. Orsini makes clear that this political-religious concept of historical development is central to understanding all such self-styled "purifiers of the world." From Thomas Müntzer's theocratic dream to Pol Pot's Cambodian revolution, all the violent "purifiers" of the world have a clear goal: to build a perfect society in which there will no longer be any sin and unhappiness and in which no opposition can be allowed to upset the universal harmony. Andreas JN466 14:00, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Andreas,

So I think we need something referencing the abstract along the lines of: "Orsini uses the Red Brigades as a case study of his view that political homicide, whether coming from the extreme left or from neo-nazi groups, whether from non-state actors or from groups, such as the Pol Pot regime, that have taken over the state apparatus, is motivated by a messianic form of thinking. Violent religious or political sects succeed in turning their members into terrorists only to the extent that they succeed in indoctrinating them into believing that the group has a spiritual mission to purify the world of corruption." Dronkle (talk) 15:33, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds good to me. Andreas JN466 16:11, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done [1] Andreas JN466 10:30, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

And another source that discusses Orsini as expressing his POV over mutiple works

Indoctrination to Hate Recruitment Techniques of Hate Groups and How to Stop Them Edward W. Dunbar (Anthology Editor) In particular Chapter 6 Dal Santo, E., & D'Angelo, E. (2022). Relationship of online hate, radicalization, and terrorism. Here's a whole paragraph from p.155

• Alessandro Orsini's theory is linked to Roy's analysis of the psychological frustrations that lead to terrorism. From the analysis of terrorists' biographies, Orsini has developed a model to explain the phase of the radicalization process known by the acronym DRIA (2011, 67): the first phase is represented by the disintegration of the social identity (D), followed by the reconstruction of the social identity through a radical ideology (R), the integration in a radical sect (I), and the alienation from the surrounding environment (A). Orsini clarifies (2013) that his analysis applies to what he calls "vocational terrorists," namely people that have decided to sacrifice their lives in the name of a spiritual goal, driven by ideological motivations and fearless of death (2012, 678-79). A vocational terrorist is characterized, according to Orsini, by several peculiar characteristics that can be described as: radical catastrophism, waiting for the end, obsession with purity, identification of evil, obsession with purification, exaltation of martyrdom or desire to be persecuted, and purification of the means through the end (Orsini, 2012, 671). These elements lead to the elaboration of a shared narrative on the basis of which vocational terrorists plan their actions in the framework of the "DRIA model": the psychological frustrations, also referred to by Roy, lead to a disintegration of the social identity (D), that is usually followed by the reconstruction of the identity through a radical ideology (R): jihadi ideology is one among other possible ideologies that allows the reconstruction of the identity providing new existential reference points (Orsini & Caillat, 2016, 784).

Roy is Olivier Roy (political scientist). The authors reference works from 2016 and 2017 (i.e. ones that postdate the Orsini references) so we should avoid implying that Orsini is influenced by him.

My suggestion is that we include much of the above paragraph in a section above discussion of the specific Orsini books. The writing is so dense that I think it is going to be unrealistic to attempt to distil its essence without Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. Hence it's better to quote verbatim but without the fist sentence and replacing ", also referred to by Roy," with ellipsis. The ellipsis might even cover the whole text between the colon after the second mention of "DRIA model" and the colon after the "(R)" that follows. This is just repetition of material earlier in the paragraph.

This is a reliable secondary text and therefore saves us from having to make the choice of which parts of the primary texts encapsulate the key elements of Orsini's theories.Dronkle (talk) 10:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@Dronkle This is great, thanks. (Chapter authors: [2], [3]). Would we lose much if we stopped the quote at "through the end (Orsini, 2012, 671)."? Andreas JN466 11:20, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

We might be able to avoid a long verbatim quote by sourcing some of this from Orsini himself and citing him as an ancillary (primary) source. His introduction of the DRIA model begins on page 67 of the book available in pdf format here; that is the page Dal Santo and D'Angelo themselves are partly citing and paraphrasing in the passage above. Andreas JN466 13:00, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm open to the suggestions in these comments of Andreas. I notice that Herf's review of the BR book is already expository rather than evaluative. So it can be used as in indicator of what the book is about. As opposed to the current emphasis on whether people like it or not. Dronkle (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Based on the above – thanks again – I've created a section on the DRIA model here. Andreas JN466 10:32, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Andreas. I've since noticed [4] A 2020 article in which Orsini says he developed the model when going through the histories of 39 jihadi terrorists. That doesn't quite make sense to me as some of their actions postdate the first appearance of the theory. In presenting the article mentions a number of authors who he says influenced him. In the conclusion he discusses Kuhn and remarks Not to mention how much the idea of progress is affected by the type of data collection method employed by social scientists in their investigations. For instance, ethnographers who are used to establish direct contact with violent people in order to become “participant observers” would probably have a different idea about “progress” and “stagnation” in radicalization research compared to that of sociologists who prefer to gather statistics.. This sort of addresses some of what you have said about the historians who were most sever in their criticisms effectively having different paradigms (to use the word most associated with Kuhn) from the socially minded researchers who liked Orsini's books. Dronkle (talk) 15:41, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

And here's another article that [5] examines the DRIA model. In this case it also looks at a second model of Orsini's about the lethality of attacks and seems to think it works better than an alternative that was also considered. I'll see if we can find other citations of that model. The DRIA certainly seems to be well recognised within the field of terrorism research. Dronkle (talk) 18:58, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Dronkle, very useful. I have expanded the DRIA section accordingly. [6] Andreas JN466 09:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Another source which would need to be handled carefully

No Pasaran by Shane Burley. (who is profiled at https://jewishcurrents.org/author/shane-burley) I get the impression that he is a polemicist - albeit one I would agree with- but this means that we would have to be very careful about quoting his criticisms of Orsini in Wikipedia's voice. Google Books provided a preview of much of Burley's discussion of Sacrifice. Here are some fragments:

*he sees the antifascists and fascists as mutually reinforcing parties. with each creating a "parallel world" that makes the other possible, and does not seem to fascism as necessarily more violent in its ideology or its praxis than antifascism.

*Orsini closes his book with a reflection on his own experiences with violence, and it is clear that he comes from a place of both fascination with and opposition to ideologically motivated violence.

Burley is quite critical of Orsini in parts I have not quoted, considering him too soft on the fascists and also accusing him of bringing others into danger. I'm wary of quoting this material verbatim.

Wild speculation and certainly WP:OR but these two quotes give an insight on where Orsini is coming from on the Ukraine war. Dronkle (talk) 09:44, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Having probed a bit further I've found that the situation is a bit more complicated than I thought in that No Pasaran! is an anthology and the version on Google Books is sufficiently cut that I do not even know who wrote the piece from which I have quoted. In summary, what I found is by an unknown author of unknown pedigree and published in an activist anthology printed by an activist publisher (AK Press). It's an interesting read but not one likely to count as a WP:Reliable Source. Dronkle (talk) 12:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Two Orsini articles that could be useful if someone has access to an academic library

A Day Among the Diehard Terrorists: The Psychological Costs of Doing Ethnographic Research [7] and ETHNOGRAPHY WITH EXTREMISTS: LIVING IN A FASCIST MILITIA [8] both seem to concern his experiences around doing ethnographic research on the BR and the group behind the alias "Sacrifice". They might seem to provide some useful insights for the BLP. Dronkle (talk) 13:26, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Actually it looks as if the Wikipedia Library will let me into both. Dronkle (talk) 13:45, 28 June 2023 (UTC)