Talk:Alban Berg

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Internal links

I do not think that linking to music is gratuitous in an article about a professional composer. Hyacinth 05:28, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hmm.. you're right. I guess I just have bad memories of everything2.com style linking :) I've put them back in and added a few -- I also didn't think about the fact that there are articles, some quite substantial, for those links. Bleh fu --BenK 13:41, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

Great. Hyacinth 19:09, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Link to list of compositions

I just added a list of Berg's compositions. Should a link be added on the Lulu, Wozzeck, and Seven Early Songs pages? --BenK 03:07, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

Uncited Quote

The very last sentence of the "Life and Work" section is almost a direct quote from the Conclusion of the Grove Music Online article "Alban Berg". I don't know if this is indeed where this sentence came from or not -- but it either needs to be removed or rephrased or placed within quotes and properly cited.

A comparison:
Grove - "As the 20th century closed, the ‘backward-looking’ Berg suddenly came as Perle remarked, to look like its most forward-looking composer."
Wiki - "As the 20th century closed, the ‘backward-looking’ Berg suddenly came as the American composer George Perle remarked, to look like its most forward-looking composer." --Tnmusikherr 02:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You were correct: indeed it seemed copy-pasted (even the curly quotes were the same). I did it as a literal quote; it's short enough, and it actually sums up pretty well. Antandrus (talk) 03:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class, but on the weak side; its musicology needs expansion. My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 16:59, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect info on Wozzeck

Berg did not begin work on Wozzeck in 1917, as Wikipedia's own article on the opera confirms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.195.221.206 (talk) 13:55, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrische Suite

Hi, I'm new to Wiki; would it be OK to include information on the orchestration of Lyrische Suite? In addition to the three movements orchestrated by Berg himself, the other three movements have recently been orchestrated by Theo Verbey. This makes it an interesting piece to program.... [[1]]. Maybe as an external link? Thanks, Stevey-22 (talk) 14:05, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy section: Berg's relative importance

I'm having trouble with the "one of the most important 20th century composers" line. It doesn't appear to be cited? Anyway, is this actually true? Most of my music reference books, while recognizing his art, always list him as second-tier in terms of importance. Is Berg really looked at as an equal of Schoenberg, Shostakovich, Stravinsky or even Copland in terms of relative impact? I love his instrumental music but I would be loathe to claim him as one of the historically top 20th century composers ... perhaps an argument can be made that along with Schoenberg and Webern he was the most important in twelve-tone technique (which is undeniable). If we take out the "most" I'm fine with it.HammerFilmFan (talk) 11:10, 24 October 2010 (UTC)HammerFilmFan[reply]

Yes, he is looked at as on par with Schoenberg, Webern, Bartok, Stravinsky, Debussy. In fact, I was thinking at "Berg" should perhaps redirect to Alban Berg since it does for the other composers I just mentioned- albeit there are more people with the surname Berg. I suppose one could clarify that is "one of the most important European composers of the first half of the 20th century," since all of the composers I just mentioned were that, but in any case he was very groundbreaking as he really reconciled a sense of tonality with a lack of key.165.82.76.44 (talk) 15:48, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What RS's are you basing your claim on? Not just some mucico's opinion in a liner note, but some consensus of critical opinion that states this? Otherwise the statement will have to go. I've read a bit of musical criticism of Berg, and at no point in that material was he ever stated to be "one of the most important 20th century composers." Also, please register/sign in - an anon will not be a good way to state your case. Also, ensure the RS is in English, or has a ready English translation not reliant on an online translator - this is the English wiki. HammerFilmFan (talk) 12:08, 1 April 2011 (UTC)HammerFilmFan[reply]

I'm not the anon in question, but as I understand it: 1) Being an anon should not be a dis-qualification for a good faith editor (although you are actually more "anonymous" if you use an id as the IP itself tells something about you). 2) We do not require English sources - they are preferred but non-English sources are not disqualified. My opinion, we might be able to remove the "most" from the sentence in question: he is covered in most 20th Century music text, for example. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 15:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

English wiki's are supposed to use RS's in English - just as German sources are to be used in German wiki articles, etc., etc. unless an easily accessible translation (online) is available - that's been stated and enforced many, many times in Wikipedia. Also, unless one is registered it is difficult to maintain a running dialogue on the talk pages because you can't tell who you're talking to unless they sign with some name. Registration is encouraged on Wikipedia. HammerFilmFan (talk) 19:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan[reply]

English sources are preferred but not required. If a higher quality source is available in another language, then by all means use it. See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English_sources. By the way, I strongly object to taking out "most" from the sentence in question; Berg's importance and influence are massive. You could use as references (picking three that happen to be within arm's reach) either the entry in the current Oxford Dictionary of Music ("Austrian composer whose output ... is among the most influential and important of the 20th cent."), Paul Griffiths's article in the Oxford Companion to music, or the enormous article in the current New Grove by Douglas Jarman ("At once a modernist and a Romantic, a formalist and a sensualist, he produced one of the richest bodies of music in the 20th century, and in opera, especially, he had few equals.") Antandrus (talk) 20:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But his music was almost completely unplayed and forgotten until the very end of the 20th century, and is still hardly part of the standard concert fare [violin concerto-exception] (not that that is the sole judge of quality.) WOZZECK was very important but LULU is not judged at anywhere near the same level. If "importance" in 20th century music means influence on musical trends and other major composers, it would seem he was not one of the most important? Again note I am a fan of the atonal school - I just want to get it right here. Nowhere did Berg have the historic impact in the media, etc., that Stravinsky or Bartok or Shostakovich did. 98.67.189.100 (talk) 21:02, 6 April 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan[reply]

article needs a photo!

Yes indeedy-do ! HammerFilmFan (talk) 12:22, 1 April 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan[reply]

Lyric Suite cryptography

Perhaps at this date the mention of the cryptography in the Lyric Suite could be expanded a little to refer to Hannah Fuchs-Robettin (whose papers provided the source for much of what we now know about the work, and the words Berg added to the finale, which have been occasionally sung in performance. Both the Wikipedia articles on Hannah Fuchs-Robettin and the Lyric Suite itself are much more explicit. Delahays (talk) 16:02, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do you not think the link to the article on the Lyric Suite is sufficient? There will always be a question of balance with the rest of the article, and it is a judgment call concerning how much is too much in a basic biography when there are subordinate articles discussing works in detail. Personally, I find that the "Early life" section is much more in need of fleshing out here, before considering the expansion of other sections.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It certainly strikes me as odd that there is no mention of Hanna Fuchs in the article at all. Even Marie Scheuchl is mentioned, but Hanna Fuchs isn't? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 23:58, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

23

User Arthur Rubib has expressed a wish to move material relating to Berg and 23 from the article on the number 23. I think it is better there and rather unbalances this article and would support it's removal from here.Sceptic1954 (talk) 19:26, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Alban Berg/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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;Composers Project Assessment of Alban Berg: 2024-12-1

This is an assessment of article Alban Berg by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano.

If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.

Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status.

Origins/family background/studies

Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?

ok

Early career

Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

ok

Mature career

Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

ok

List(s) of works

Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.

ok

Critical appreciation

Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?

Sketchy.

Illustrations and sound clips

Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)

Surely a PD picture can be found? No sound

References, sources and bibliography

Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?

Article has references; tagged for inline citations.

Structure and compliance with WP:MOS

Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)

Footer sections misnamed, out of order. Lead could be lengthened.

Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review

Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE)
Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD)
Article footer material needs organization (WP:LAYOUT)
Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE)

Summary

This is a decent article, but it is somewhat shorter than I might expect, given the notability of the subject and the amount that has been written about him and his music (as evidenced by the mis-named "Bibliography" section). The biographical summary is adequate. I feel that the musicology is weak; while it touches all bases, it does so in relatively little depth.

An attempt should be made to locate a public-domain photo of him; it seems odd that an early-20th-century figure doesn't have such a photo here. Additional photos and sound clips would also be a welcome addition. The footer material is out of order (per WP:LAYOUT), and the "Bibliography" should be labeled "Further reading"; "Bibliography" is intended for published works by the subject.

Article is B-class, but a bit weak; the musicology really needs expansion. Magic♪piano 16:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 16:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 07:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:37, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Innovation

What is the purpose of this section? There is nothing that describes any innovations that Berg may have introduced to music. The paragraphs here are mostly additional biographical pieces of information. Why would his marriage to Helene Nahowski be included in this section? I suggest removing the heading. Jaco66 (talk) 12:10, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Jaco66: Thanks for pointing that out. I was also irked by that (very old) section but was lazy to do something about it until now.

There are still a few paragraphs that seem out of place (the one starting with Berg was a part of Vienna's cultural elite and the one about number 23), but I can't find them a suitable home under the current structure – they belong to some kind of "Miscellaneous" info. No such user (talk) 13:27, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Quote box

@MONTENSEM: Thanks for your work on the article. The only thing I don't like is that giant quote box occupying a good portion of the right margin. [2] Apart from being visually jarring, I find it hard to interpret (it's Berg quoting Ernst but accompanied by refs from Hailey and an efn) – it would be much better if incorporated in the text somewhere and given context. No such user (talk) 13:35, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, it could probably become the basis of a section on his music, since that's what it's really getting at. Sooner or later ... MONTENSEM (talk) 01:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]