Talk:Al-Maqdisi

Name

I think the page should be al-Maqdisi (meaning Jerusalemite), not al-Muqadasi (meaning holy). Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 22:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm also pretty much sure the name should be al-Maqdisi, not al-Muqaddasi. Al-Muqaddasi makes no sense at all (I guess it's a mis-transliteration by non-native Arabic speakers). Maqdisi refers to someone from Bayt al-Maqdis (Jerusalem). Muqaddas (not even muqaddasi), on the other hand, means holy. Also in Encyclopædia Britannica he's referred to as al-Maqdisi. 37.142.217.183 (talk) 12:52, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

I see both of these in many places. The Encyclopedia of Islam calls him Mukaddasi. Quite a lot of Arab historians (writing in English) call him al-Muqaddasi. Guy le Strange, whose translations of the medieval geographers is still a standard text, used al-Mukaddasi. A large number of academic writings give both versions as alternatives. I'm not convinced that the question is so clear-cut as claimed here. Zero^talk 13:24, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Al-Maqdisi is presently a redir to Maqdisi, which is a dab page. There have been many people with that nisba. Oh, and "The Holy One" is one of the Islamic names of Jerusalem, see here, Huldra (talk) 21:07, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Both spellings are literally the same thing in Arabic. "Maqdis," from Bait al-Maqdis (Jerusalem) is rooted from the word "Muqaddas" (holy) which is pronounced the same way in Arabic. I've already changed the article for consistency in naming but the page needs to be migrated to reflect the new spelling. Dr.Greyhawk (talk) 20:17, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

This religious site [1] is not reliable source for Al-Muqaddasi. There are many good sources regarding this great Arab scholar and historians and this article needs to be expanded by them.Tritomex (talk) 13:29, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

The second source, is written by Zakariyeh Mohammed poet, who has no formal education from history. In my opinion this source is also unreliable. I still reverted myself to see reflection on this issues.Tritomex (talk) 13:43, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Zakariyeh Mohammed is a poet and a writer. In the cited source he is quoting directly from al-Maqdisi's book therefore it is irrelevant whether Zakariyeh has an education in history or not since the information contained in the revert is coming directly from al-Maqdisi's own book. BlackVolcano (talk) 07:57, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Poets and writers without formal education from history are not reliable source for historic scholarship.You have to find better source for this claim. If he quotes directly from Al-Muqaddasi, you may add his book with citation and book page. Otherwise, this source did not met the WP:RS criteria. Tritomex (talk) 21:22, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Again, Zakariyeh himself is not the historic source, the historic source is Maqdisi's book that Zakariyeh is directly quoting from. As a poet and writer with credentials, he is a reliable source when it comes to quoting other material. Historians or anyone with a historic scholarship would not have any more credibility in this matter. The reason why this source is used instead of Maqdisi's book itself is because it is much more easily verifiable. The only way to verify Maqdisi's book is to have a physical copy on hand which is not so easy to find. BlackVolcano (talk) 23:12, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Again Maqdisi's book is not given as source (name of the book, page and citation) but someone who describe himself as "a poet and writer" I did not find anything that would make Zakariyeh Mohammed reliable source,(in fact it seems that a bibliography of Zakariyeh Mohammed, poet does not exist online) for alleged quotations (and conclusions made on quotations) from Al-Muqaddasi book. If Zakariyeh is directly quoting from Maqdisi's book, which I dont think is a case, than use Maqdisi's book as reference, and I will not object current woriding. It seems that you are new editor, please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia rules, including those that objects removing tags regarding ongoing discussions.Tritomex (talk) 23:50, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

I found a reliable source [2], from a reliable author, Nazmi Al-Ju’beh ( PhD in Islamic Studies) [3] that can support the current wording. Be free too add this source, but also please remove "the poet and writer" source. Tritomex (talk) 00:40, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Okay thanks for finding that source. As for the other source, the book is cited at the bottom of the page and I have borrowed the book myself. As for the writer, here and here are short online biographies of Zakaria Mohammed. Either way I directly added the book itself as a source and I verified it. The part of the text where he writes the following is directly translated from the book:

One day I sat next to some builders in Shiraz; they were chiseling with poor picks and their stones were the thickness of clay. If the stone was even, they would draw a line with the pick and perhaps this would cause it to break. But if the line was straight, they would set it in place. I told them: if you use a wedge, you can make a hole in the stone. And I told them of the construction in Palestine and I engaged them in matters of construction.

The master stonecutter asked me: Are you Egyptian?

I said: No, I am Palestinian.

He said: I heard that you carve stones like you would carve wood.

I said: Yes.

He said: Your stones are malleable and your craft gentle.

Anyways, I will remove the Zakariya Mohammed source and I will put the source you found instead. BlackVolcano (talk) 01:04, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

date and place of death

As far as I have been able to determine, his place of death is unknown. He was an avid traveler so it could have been anywhere. As for the year, I can find "ca. 991", "ca. 1000" and "after 1000". I think that nothing is actually recorded and these are just estimates based on his writings. Zero^talk 04:21, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

What are WP:RS saying?--Shrike (talk) 13:06, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

False information

This article moderators are trying to promote agenda rather than facts!!! The birthplace of al maqdis wasn't palestine but rather the Fatimid Caliphate WHICH IS MENTIONED AS HIS BIRTHPLACE ON THIS ARTICLE! and specifically Al‐Bayt al‐Muqaddas (Jerusalem). This region was NEVER called palestine besides of the times of the British mandate. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)#:~:text=Some%20other%20terms%20that%20have,%2C%20Retenu%20(Ancient%20Egy

The link to this sentence "According to historian André Miquel, al-Maqdisi "was very much attached to the Palestine of his birth and to the town whose name he bears". DOESNT EXIT!

Roneln (talk) 05:04, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

It is perfectly common for historians to refer to the region as Palestine even for pre-historic times. It is not a political designation but a geographical one. Also the quotation appears in the source on page 492 exactly as stated. Zero^talk 07:41, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

No! Absolutely No distinguished historian will ever call a region by a name that never existed at that time!!! This is why in this article it's clearly stated in

Born:

Jerusalem, Fatimid Caliphate

Unless he will say "our days..." or "currently"

which wont be true cause it is now israel.

Second you didn't provide an explanation why there is no source for the citation here :

"was very much attached to the Palestine of his birth and to the town whose name he bears". [4]

The name he Bears is al Muqadis which comes from Al‐Bayt al‐Muqaddas which is literally the holy temple of the jews בית המקדש.

The fact that you are trying to disregard facts shows how political this article is.

I Demand not to change this unless you provide legit sources and observe the information. Roneln (talk) 23:17, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Pay attention! The sentence is an exact quotation from the source. Around here we go by what reliable sources say, not by what you believe and not according to what you can reach with a click. Go to a library if you can't find it online. You are also totally wrong about the historical use of the word Palestine. I don't have any sympathy for that because it is very easy to check that there are thousands of examples of what you claim is impossible. Look at this : what was it called in the chalcolithic times? (Answer: nobody has any idea, as writing didn't exist yet.) Here is an example from one of the most famous Israeli historians for the early Islamic period. Here is the Crusader period from one of the most famous British historians of that time. Here is Ottoman Palestine from another prominent Israeli historian. You are WP:Editwarring and you had better stop before you are blocked. Zero^talk 01:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

sorry pal but its an embarrassing display.

And since now we know that you are here to spew propoganda and not facts lets go over what you wrote and give you a true history lesson.

1. Do you know what palestine means?, it comes from the ancient word philistinoi in Greek or philstinus in classical latin which came from the hebrew word פלישתים.(Which literally means infiltratrators) And refers to an ancient people the philistines which DO NOT EXIT ANY MORE " lost their distinct ethnic identity and disappeared as a people from the historical and archaeological record by the late 5th century BC." Philistines
2. the region of Israel always used to have a distinct name: -land of Canaan (2100-1550 BCE) -israel and Judah (1209 BCE) -Syria Palaestina (a name that was given by the ROMANS to the region to insult the jews naming the region by their enemies at the time the philistines 136-390 CE) -at the Muslim period it was name after various Caliphates and dynasties from rashidun to Umayyad and fatimid. (635-982 CE) -kingdom of jerusalem (named by the Christian crusaders (1095-1244 CE) -Mamluk Sultanate (1258-1516) -old yishuv (during the ottoman period 1517-1864 CE) -Mandatory Palestine (the only time we're the region was actually called palestine by the British empire which was under the British mandate 1920-1948) History of Israel
3. ALL the citations you brought written by ISRAELI historians referred to the WEST BANK! which is not under Israeli governance! and not a part of Israel! This is why they referred to it as palestine since Yasser Arafat decided to embrace the word in 1964. But palestine under arabs in israel was NEVER DECLARED AS A COUNTRY! Even after 1964. You obviously not familiar with the history of this region. West bank
4. As ive showed muslims were actually the few ones that didnt name the region with any form of Philistines but rather used the names of the Caliphates and dynasties.
5. and as I've said The link to this sentence "According to historian André Miquel, al-Maqdisi "was very much attached to the Palestine of his birth and to the town whose name he bears". DOESNT EXIT, Nor the book, page and paragraph. Please check.

Roneln (talk) 04:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

The book is on my computer and I checked it before the first time I responded to your edits. There has never been a requirement that sources are on the internet. The rest of what you write is rubbish too. Items 1, 2 and 4 are irrelevant, and item 3 shows that you didn't read the examples I gave or look at the thousands of other examples you can easily find. Zero^talk 05:35, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

the author said from Emek izrael to the Northen part of beer Sheba which is LITERALLY the length of the west bank! Dude check your own resources please! Roneln (talk) 21:52, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

and BTW...if you knew the history of that region you might understand the relevancy. Roneln (talk) 22:01, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Haha, I clicked on the link given for Miquel's article and although most of it is behind a firewall all of the words "very much attached to the Palestine of his birth and to the town whose name he bears" are visible. So you are wrong about that too. Zero^talk 05:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

you are lying!!!! There wasn't any link nor a source (book & page). It's embarrassing dude please. Roneln (talk) 21:54, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I’ve checked the sources and agree with Zero that they all support this material and that Robeln is, in his words, lying. Restoring the well sourced material. nableezy - 13:44, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

and here's another one from their army.

The good thing here is naleezy that i got the entire conversation with you guys to show The entire world how badly articles in Wikipedia are being abused by propoganda.

2 questions about this quote:

"very much attached to the Palestine of his birth and to the town whose name he bears".

1.(never mind the horrible grammar) but how can al muqdisi could have been attached to palestine if palestine didn't exit on his time! It was literally as ive showed the fatimid caliphate AS ITS WRITTEN AS HIS BIRTHPLACE ON THIS ARTICLE! are you going to not only dismiss history but Wikipedia itself for your propoganda?

2.the town which it name he bears as ive showed and as written in THIS ARTICLE is Bayat al muqadis. Which is the holy temple of the Jewish people which was the name of jerusalem. How could it be that palestines holy city will be the name of the holiest place for the jews? In fact who are the palestinias if you may explain it to us using actual history, facts and documentation?

• just so you know, your block of that account to serve your lies and agenda didn't do nothing. Not only that I'm going to go public with this issue ill also use a lawyer if I need to because I know that the owner of Wikipedia would like his readers to get the truth and not fabrications of agents working to damage this platform. Roneln (talk) 10:20, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

BTW

This is the source for that quote:

Miquel 1993, p.492.

This is not a name of a book. If it is pls provide a link to that book to verify this issue. Roneln (talk) 10:25, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

(a) Look in the bibliography section. (b) Read WP:Competence is required because it was written for you. Zero^talk 13:00, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

So some people don't want to believe it

I have added a new link to the Arabic text of Al-Maqdisi's book, since the previous one seems to be paywalled or dead. He uses the place name فلسطين (Palestine) at least 20 times and describes himself as a فلسطيني (Palestinian) at least once. That passage reads "The master stonecutter asked me: 'Are you Egyptian?' I said: 'No, I am Palestinian.'". Zero^talk 11:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Potentially relevant for inclusion on Palestinian identity too. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Missing book

Muthir al-gharam fi ziyarat al-Quds wa-sh-Sham ("Arousing love for visiting Jerusalem and Syria"; c. 1350-51). There is a whole genre developed during the counter-Crusades, which deserves an article. Arminden (talk) 21:22, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey. You are lucky. The work is on the internet , though it's a manuscript rather than print. As a student of Arabic for 3 years , this orthography is quite hard for me to read , and I don't think native speakers find it easy either.

Besides , that Al-Maqdisi is a different Jerusalemite from the one here , with the difference between the two individuals being roughly 4-5 centuries.

I can see you are much experienced editor , but as a short reminder , you can only start a new article if that other Al-Maqdisi is notable enough. You can then link it to that disambiguation.

Hope that helped. TheCuratingEditor (talk) 21:32, 16 November 2024 (UTC)