Talk:Airedale line

Settle and Carlisle

I think that including the Settle-Carlisle Railway and the map is not right. This line (rightly) has its own map and article, and is not a part of the Airedale Line. I intend to remove it from the map, and replace it with a link. Canterberry 23:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

What is the Airedale Line?

All the sources I can find on the internet suggest that the name "Airedale Line" applies only to the routes between Leeds, Bradford and Skipton. Where is the evidence the name is also used to Morecambe (or, even worse, Carlisle which already has a name: the Settle-Carlisle Line)? --Dr Greg (talk) 17:05, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree - the only thing I can think is it being shown in the back of the Airedale Line timetable. Perhaps 'the industry' refers to it as such, or historically it was included? Guessing here though... Scrxisi (talk) 17:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Metro is the main user of the 'Airedale Line' name, and they only show the core part between Leeds/Bradford and Skipton on their map: [1] . I think this article should focus on that section, and leave the sections beyond Skipton to separate articles. -- NRTurner (talk) 19:01, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Further research seems to confirm this. I think the confusion is caused by some maps and timetables for the Airedale Line also showing through services to Morecambe and Carlisle. The name I am seeing is "Leeds to Morecambe Line".

I think there are two options: either rename this article the "Leeds to Morecambe Line" and have within it a section called the "Airedale Line", or else have two separate articles with these two names. Either way, I think the Settle-Carlisle section should be cut out (except for a brief summary) with a link to its own article. I note there is also a Morecambe Branch Line article which could be merged with "Leeds to Morecambe Line". The history of (most of) the line is already covered by the "little" North Western Railway article. There is some overlap between all of the articles mentioned above which could do with some tidying up.

(By the way, the reason I brought this up is because I noticed one editor is adding "Airedale Line" route information to all the stations along the Settle-Carlisle line.) --Dr Greg (talk) 16:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

That particular editor, 83.67.55.217, is starting to gain a degree of notoriety with their edits to the previous/next station boxes on station articles, particularly because they have never responded to any of the requests to interact with the community. This is just the latest chapter of that.

The term "Airedale Line", as far as I'm aware, is used solely by Metro for the Leeds/Bradford-Skipton services. I don't think there's any way that the term can reasonably be used for services beyond Skipton to Lancaster/Morecambe/Carlisle. The fact that Metro include these services in the Airedale Line timetable is probably the root of this. Obviously, between Settle and Carlisle the line has a well-understood name, Settle-Carlisle Line; for the lines between Skipton and Settle, and between Giggleswick and Carnforth it is less obvious what we should use. But I don't think that "Airedale Line" is really appropriate for any of them (not least because none of them are actually in Airedale!). I will remove this reference from the S&C station articles for now, as 83.67.55.217 has reverted Dr Greg's edits. --RFBailey (talk) 19:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your support, RFBailey. I have now removed (I think) all references to "Airedale Line" in all the station infoboxes northwest of Skipton, substituting either Settle-Carlisle Line, Leeds to Morecambe Line or both as appropriate. The latter link is currently a redirect to Airedale Line, but I intend to rewrite it as a separate article when I have time. (Anyone else is welcome to beat me to it!). I know there a number of other links to Airedale Line which will also need substituting. --Dr Greg (talk) 11:47, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I've sorted some of those out (as I put them in to start with as they were the only option available at the time). As a long time resident of Skipton and business & leisure traveller on the various lines in question, I can support Dr Greg's views on this - the Airedale line is indeed considered to be the commuter service operated by W.Y Metro that starts/ends in Skipton, and while there is a degree of overlap with the Settle & Carlisle and Leeds to Morecambe services, they are regarded in the industry as separate entities. If anyone wishes to start a Leeds to Morecambe Line page, I'll be more than happy to contribute to it as I did with the Morecambe Branch line page. Gmac67 (talk) 12:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I managed to find some time earlier than I thought! The new article now exists and I have cut-and-pasted material bewteen the 3 articles, Airedale Line, Leeds to Morecambe Line and Settle-Carlisle Line. Some of the material isn't that well written and could do with improvement. --Dr Greg (talk) 17:29, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Airedale line/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

. Requires addition of inline references using one of the {{Cite}} templates Requires photographs Requires better structuring to clarify Requires copy-edit for WP:MOS Keith D (talk) 19:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 19:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 06:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Airedale Line caps or no caps

@Dicklyon: Without wishing to resurrect the protracted discussion about naming conventions - why have the sections of this page titled Airedale Line been decapped? In the discussion about the changes it was stated by Dicklyon (Talk:Chester-Manchester line) that pages like East Coast Main Line etc would keep their caps because it is a proper noun in the context as opposed to Manchester-Chester line. The term line has been de-capped throughout the article, but the page has not been moved from Airedale Line to Airedale line. Therefore, all instances of the term Airedale Line should remain with caps throughout, surely?

I have no argument about de-capping the word line in various articles, but some (Wharfedale Line, Airedale Line, East Coast Main Line etc) should remain with caps. Otherwise, why has the page not been moved?The joy of all things (talk) 09:45, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

There was a brief delay as I had to ask an admin to help with the move. Fixed now. Dicklyon (talk) 15:45, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

@Dicklyon:However; I thought that this was one of the articles where its name was a proper noun and so should not be moved....?The joy of all things (talk) 16:17, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Books invariably use lowercase. So what's making you think it's a proper name? Dicklyon (talk) 02:57, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

In this content, the word 'line' is a noun, because it is part of the name/title. Therefore the title of this article should be Airedale Line. (Rillington (talk) 19:03, 17 December 2016 (UTC))

@Dicklyon: I have done some research and it seems to be 50/50. (BTW - your book search is empty, so I did my own and what came up was a lot of travel guides rather than actual 'railway' books. One of which (a Bradt guide) managed to mis-spell Haworth as Howarth, so I put no store by these.

• The Railway Magazine (about the absolute pinnacle of printed magazines regarding railways in the United Kingdom) mostly uses Airedale Line - March 2011, page 8; Hope for the revival of Embsay - Skipton route. However in March 2001, page 11, they use lowercase for describing the Airedale and Wharfedale lines
• Network Rail vary between Line, route and line - so that's no help.
• Northern (The TOC who operate most passenger services on the route) go for Line [Northern timetable]
• Books that I have by respected authors (Shannon, Bairstow etc) vary between the two, but I do not have an exhaustive selection so this is no help either. Alan Young's brilliant Lost Railway Stations of Yorkshire, still lists the closed stations on the line as being on the Leeds - Skipton line, which yields no help.

In summary, I acquiesce, because I cannot really be bothered to get into another argument with you or SMcCandlish about this. Suffice to say that I think it should remain capitalised and that I will hold you to your promise here (Talk:Chester-Manchester line) that lines like the East Coast Main Line, Midland Main Line etc be preserved as they are.

A Google book search is not sufficient to allocate line names. Books and magazines that cover railways as their primacy should be a reliable steer in these matters. Travel guides are, in my view, not up to specification when it comes to an authoritative source regarding railways. Regards. The joy of all things (talk) 21:15, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Not sure why my search link seems empty for you; for me, it shows all lowercase on first page of 10 book hits, and mostly lowercase thereafter. It seems clear from your results, too, that sources are not consistent in capitalizing this, so per MOS:CAPS we default to lowercase. And per your timetables link, surely your not suggesting that we should also capitalize things like "Full Timetable", are you? On the "Main Line" names, I agree there is a super-majority of caps; I have no intention of challenging those. Dicklyon (talk) 03:42, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

No I am not suggesting we cap full timetable - the link is there to show that Northern Train Operating Company, who operate about 80% of the passenger services on the line capitalise Airedale Line and not Airedale line. As for your book searches; on the first challenge on the Chester-Manchester talk page, one of the book searches you put there didn't work either, it just defaults to a blank Google search page. But it's okay - I am capable of performing a search. The joy of all things (talk) 07:46, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

My point on the timetable doc is that the phrase "Skipton to Leeds and Bradford Forster Square (Airedale Line) Full Timetable" can't really be taken as evidence that Airedale Line is being treated as a proper name, unless you believe that "Full Timetable" is also being treated as a proper names. And the phrase "Airedale, Wharfedale, Pontefract, Wakefield and Penistone lines" there suggests rather that they treat "line" as a generic noun. The referenced doc title "Timetable 40 Airedale" further suggests that they don't consider "line" to be a part of the proper name. Dicklyon (talk) 17:29, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough - Northern are a new TOC, but as long as I can remember, in printed timetables, Airedale line was always capitalized. Whatever, I would still see that as a higher source in reliability than random book searches. Regards. The joy of all things (talk) 09:08, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Quite the opposite. In timetables, you're pretty much looking at headings and titles. We need to look at use in sentences to see if it's treated as proper or not. Books and news are good sources for such. Dicklyon (talk) 15:36, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

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