Talk:Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Ethnicity

There is sufficient evidence to note that he may have been Afar, and this I believe deserves its own section. Franz-Cristoph Muth calls him Somali, but notes that it is not mentioned in Futuh:

"A. was of Somali origin, later called Guray, which is deliberately ignored by his Muslim chronicler." (Franz-Cristoph Muth, "Ahmad b. Ibrahim al-Gazi" in Siegbert Herausgegeben von Uhlig, ed., Encyclopaedia Aethiopica: A-C (Wiesbaden:Harrassowitz Verlag, 2003), pp.155.)

It is noted by Ewald Wagner, however, that: "The main population of `Adal may have been of `Afar stock." (Ewald Wagner, "`Adal" in ibid, pp.71.)

It is also noted by Didier Morin as follows:

"Although the exact influence of the `Afar inside the Kingdom of `Adal is still conjectural due to its multiethnic basis..."

Pankhurst further notes that Ahmad Gragn may have been Afar himself. I can't find the exact link right now, so give me a little time to find it. Still, do not revert without addressing my comments.

ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Reading the Futuh al-Habasha, I've noticed that there is some evidence in this primary source -- although not conlcusive -- that Ahmad Gragn could have been of the Belaw, a Muslim people who currently live in Eritrea. -- llywrch 04:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you mean the Belew (modern pronounciation - the vowels would be pronounced Balaw in Ge'ez). The name seems to refer to Arabized Beja groups or Beja-ized Arab groups who ruled in NE Sudan (in Beja areas) and parts of western Eritrea (i.e. Kunama and Nara lands). This is the definition given by the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica. However, it also seems to refer to Christianized rulers of northern Ethiopia (Tigray and Eritrea) of Beja stock during the Zagwe dynasty (version supported by Taddesse Tamrat). Their origins seem to be diverse, though, so the rulers may have been members of a group similar to the Tigre (who came about later) of nomadic Tigrinya (-related language) speakers (? some conjecture on my part). — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 18:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Mostly for entertainment purposes, I thought I'd mention that Samuel Gobat, a European missionary who lived in Northern Ethiopia around 1830, stated that the Imam was a "Mohammedan Galla"! While he offers no support for this statement, I can understand how he came to this wildly erroneous opinion -- but do we need this kind of information added to the article just to engage in borderline original research to refute? -- llywrch 20:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The author of futuh al habasha repeatedly distincts the imam from the somalis and at one time he chased them until a day's travel to the sea. Also Ahmad Gurey was distincted from the imam and expressed as the leader if some somali clan so most probably he was not somali. Bin Mulat (talk) 13:19, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Unsourced Zeila Birthplace claim

User:Ragnimo, the references are not reliable, Jamal Shokays book is self published and the other is a travel guide, see WP:RSSELF. Provide an academic source until then it should not be in the article. Magherbin (talk) 21:44, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

The sources you are using is a Tourism PDF, and another source that wrongfully claims Ahmad was brought up as a slave, going completely against scholarship and historic contemporary sources. Not very reliable. --GoldenDragonHorn (talk) 10:36, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Dont compare a travel guide with a government published history document. Seeing you have not provided any sources you're simply agreeing and want to divert the issue to his upbringing. The article makes no mention of his slave background, if you feel that shouldnt be added in, take it up with someone who is going to propose including it (not me). Even searching for keyword Zeila gives you results that he only imported arms from there. [1]. Professor Haggai Erlich also doesnt mention he was born in Zeila [2]. Magherbin (talk) 19:04, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

You should assume good faith, seeing as I haven't removed your two unreliable sources yet. A government published document isn't more credible than a internationally reviewed travel guide published by Bradt Travel Guides, so that source definitely will be reinstated. The credibility of your other source is also put into question as a viable reference for a historic figure's birthplace as it can't even get his biography right, and goes against both contemporary and modern scholarship. That no one has added that incorrect claim to the article is irrelevant, same way any source that claims Alexander The Great was born in Athens but at the same time claims he was brought up as a painter shouldn't be taken seriously as a reliable source on Wikipedia. Regardless of this, there are academic sources to corroborate Phillip Briggs' book about Ahmad's Zeila origins:

• Led by its chief Ahmed Ibn Ibrahim Al-Ghazi, or Ahmed Gragn, born in the Somali port of Zeila - Schools and National Identities in French-speaking Africa: Political Choices page 60
• Ahmed Gurey (left-handed in the Somali language) was born in the port city of Zeila in Northern Somalia. - Zakarie Abdi Bade - DYNAMICS OF RELIGION AND NATIONALISM IN SOMALIA: ALLIES AND OPPONENTS - International Journal of Contemporary Applied Researches Page 40.

Its therefore not an 'unsourced' claim, and I will be re-inserting his Zeila origins with the above references. --GoldenDragonHorn (talk) 08:52, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

User:Magherbin Sorry i didn't even look at that other source provided for Zeila i just copied and pasted someone elses previous edit and moved it to the other section without giving it much thought. Ahmad thought as being born in Zeila is an academic view and there are different reliable source provided for that on the page. Hubat is most likely modern day Babille territory, like how the old capital of Dakar was actually Aw Barkhadle . The names of certain locations changes over time. But both locations have been added for neutral point of view.

User:GoldenDragonHorn pretty much summed it up well. Follow the guidelines WP:MAINSTREAM and also sources containing fringe theories are not allowed either WP:FRINGE such as adding sources that claims he is brought up as slave.

Cheers Ragnimo (talk) 09:09, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Ethnic Origin

GoldenDragonHorn and Ragnimo: The subjects background is not clear instead of pushing Somali POV which you two have been doing on various articles, it needs to be removed from the introduction otherwise this article is not neutral. If we were sure of his ethnicity, it wouldnt have an ethnicity section in the first place. Recent publications attempt to lean towards his Balaw origin. Case in point [3] [4]. Magherbin (talk) 20:26, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Magherbin The subjects ethnic background is discussed in the ethnic section, what's put in the lead is what is scholarly consensus that most scholars regard him as an ethnic Somali. It's a Mainstream POV WP:MAINSTREAM not a Somali one.

In the standard Ethiopian historiography,. Imam Ahmad is presented as a Somali.[5]

That one publication you linked is just another scholar's opinion that was included into the ethnic section for neutrality. Even in that publication it gives out that most scholars regard Imam Ahmad as a Somali and even in mainstream encyclopedias. And for good reasons in my opinion.

For example one in particular a popular Well Known Ethiopian Historian "TekleSadik Mekuria" was mentioned in that publication did an unbiased field research, drew from Arab Faqih chronicles , chronicles of Sarsa-Dengel and Traditions in Harrar and concluded Imam Ahmads genealogy is covered in the Hawiye Karanle Balow sub clan in Harrar region. That publication deceptively leaves out that information of how he arrived at that conclusion from the fact that they hold a tradition of 8 generations before him [6] , i was planning to add that to the page later on. The whole Balaw Beja claim started with a false assumption made by Braukämper who in his own admission said:

Whereas the Balaw remained as an ethnic subgroup among the Eritrean Bedja, they are hardly traceable in Hararge.[7]

He is linking it to a group that had no significant prescense or history in that area at all and neglecting that Balow was a refrence to a Hawiye clan in that region in Hararghe who still lives there. There is no tradition , proof or any evidence of Bedja Balaw having any ties to either Adal or the Imam. And Imam Ahmad was Harla from his maternal side according to Ethiopian chronicles as well.

Furthermore there other publications that are more recent than the ones you presented like this one on the history of Harrar affirming the scholarly consensus of him being regarded as a Somali [8]

Hope this clarifies it. Cheers Ragnimo (talk) 23:52, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

The Balaw are hardly traceable because of the Oromo migration as Ulrich pointed out, its not just the Balaw but the Gafat, Maya and Harla who have also disappeared. According to scholars its almost as if they never existed. You seem to take Mekuria's claims as fact despite the fact he never lived in that time period, he is no different from Hinika in this regard hence you can not call Mekuria's opinion an Ethiopian chronicle. An Ethiopian chronicle is text from the time period not modern scholar analysis. Mekuria claims Somali & Harla, Mohammed Hassan believes he was Harla, hinikia says Balaw & Afar, surprisingly Hassan and Hinika are the only two that have discussed the subject in depth. It should be noted Ahmed Guray is another individual and he was explcitly called Somali by Arab faqih, he is distinguished from Imam Ahmed. [9] Magherbin (talk) 10:53, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Ulrich doesn't point out anything about Oromo migration replacing them. But only that their ethnic substance in that regions is hardly traceable. His linkeage is based on name similarities and says the name only survived in a clan in Nole Oromo country. That clan he is speaking of is Karanle Hawiye that lives next to the Nole Oromo at Babile and they have nothing to do with Bedja from Tigray. Famous Ethiopian Scholar Mekuria explored this and investigated the traditions in Harar:

The well-known Ethiopian Historian Takla Sadiq Makuria has devoted a short chapter [1973-74) to the question of origin of the Gragn and the identity of the malasay in his rough monograph on the Gragn Wars (1973/19749. In it he draws on the evidence from Arab Faiqh of the Short Chronicle and the Chronicle of Sarsa-Dengel Takla was also able to draw on the oral tradition of Harar. Through mediation of Dagazmac Wargnah he interviewed Ahmad Ali Sami, a traditional scholar in Harar. This indicates that Gran's father comes from the Hawiya(Somali tribe) in the Ogaden; a genealogy of eight generations before Gran is known in this tradtion.[10]

You say Hinka discussed it in depth but they all left this out and mentioned Takla in the mere passing.

Mohamed Hassan believes he is Harla and that's his opinion. He is not wrong persay as he was connected to the Harla through his maternal side. Also Harlas ethnicity is disputed with modern traditions likewise associating it with Darood. Pockets of Harla in the exact area wehre they lived have been found to maintain a Darood lineage but speak a dialect similar to the lower caste Somalis .Harla_people#Language. So that doesn't even exclude them from being Somali. Somalis also didnt' assimilate them into the Darod because Harla Afaris have also retained their darood lineage which is shown in that second link you shared and has a historical document collaborating it.

Wont go into the naming sequence debate but i disagree with I'M Lewis although he also believes Imam Ahmad is Somali i believe he made that conflation then ascribes it to Somalis. Geri/Girri & Gurey are two different names. Not going to go into why, but even if that was true it doesn't eliminate the possibility of both being Somali. Futah just neglects to mention anything about his background, makes no ethnic distinctions between him or other Somalis. All Hinka does is provide an Argument_from_silence and that's a total fallacy.

In any case the scholarly consensus is that he is Somali and that justifies adding that on to the lead. Any alternative scholarly opinion is added to the ethnicity section.

Cheers Ragnimo (talk) 13:39, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

We have had discussions on other articles so let me repeat myself; Ancient Berbers from north africa were not proven to be Somalis neither were/are extinct and extant East African people such as Harla, Harari, Oromo, Afar etc. Darod itself can be debated, as they dont directly descend from Samaale, only through intermarriage unlike the other Somali clans. The Afar and Somali Darod both do not claim Samaale origin but to an Arab individual named Abdirahman bin Isma'il al-Jabarti much like the Jeberti people in Eritrea. The Balaw and Harla seem to be extinct according to most sources in the location of the subjects former kingdom however its clear they were adopted by the Oromo and Somali respectively. References indicate Harla were likely closer to Harari a non Somali group. This text alludes to the fact that Harla and Somali clans were clearly distinguished and later assimilated by Somalis [11]. Anyways without getting into ethnic origins discussions, the article isnt neutral as you're coming to your own conclusions about a subjects identity thats questioned in the article. It looks more like anyone who has done in depth papers on the subject do not agree he was explicitly Somali hence wikipedia shouldnt either, for example; [12]. Magherbin (talk) 06:13, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Not one not even myself have even claimed Berbers in North Africa were Somalis. You made the mistake of conflating the term "berber" being used. It has a modern meaning and a past meaning which is seperate, it was just an ancient greek word for "foreigner" and was applied to any non-greeker speaker and then it was carried on to be used by muslim medieval writers familiar with greek geography, it did not denote an ethnicity like it's being applied to North Africans today. Berbers in North Africa and the Berbers described in the Horn are two seperate people that had nothing to do with eachother. So that's your own misunderstanding.

Furthermore Darood is a Somali clan, Harla don't just claim Darod but Somali Ogaden sub clans in it Koombe, Kablah, Kumade, along with the Marahen, Harti, Geri etc. I mean it literally shown in the 2nd link you refrenced that list their genealogy.

Eritrean Balaw Bedja never existed in that area, there is no proof for that or traces left to prove that , either in language, culture, genealogy etc Braukamper even admits that. What did exist was a Hawiye clan with that name Balow and still continue to exist in that area and they have the genealogy of Imam Ahmad can list his forefathers and their descendants. Same goes for Harla, there is no real proof of them being seperate ethnic group and or even close to Modern Hararis even Braukamper admits linguistic evidence is lacking. All you have is assertions being made.

Anyways, i only spoke at lenght to clarify against some of the stuff you said, making the point that the few differing opinions don't exclude the possibility of him being Somali and the evidence supporting it.

As someone else pointed out in a different talk page discussion above: "The lede in the Holocaust article says it is an historical fact, but some don't agree with that, so there are paragraphs containing the view of the "non-believers" in the Holocaust. So if the mainstream scholars accept his ethnicity, it is added in the lede, but an encyclopedia paves the way for other views, just to remove it for a singlular type of source...well, that is what we call an "undue weight"

Likewise it would be non-neutral to remove the lede just because a minority disagrees or have a differing view. Read WP:WEIGHT again.

Ragnimo (talk) 11:49, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

The recent "additions" [13] are not helping, you intentionally left out the claim in the source that the Harla lost their identity to Somalis and other Adal peoples also excluded the claim in multiple sources that state his mother was Harla. You've just made the article more bias than it already is. Selectively picking material from a source and ignoring what you disagree with is not neutral. Ogaden and the other clans you mentioned are considered Darod. Darod exist in Afar region of Ethiopia and Eritrea, Futuh al Habasha always distinguished Harla and Somali as explained on p. 20 [14]. There's two issues that violate neutrality here, first you're questioning balaws identity referring to them as Somali and their presence in the area despite multiple academics linking the subject with balaw ethnic group. Secondly you're claiming Harla were Somali despite most sources indicating the contrary. A ruler can be of an ethnic group not largely found in the region, for example Muhammad Ali of Egypt was Albanian descent so the argument falls on its belly. Adal sultanate extended into Sudan where beja and other ethnic groups lived. There were considerable North Africans in Adal as well. Magherbin (talk) 19:27, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

I can't add what's not in the source i refrenced and not relevant to the page. Read it for yourself [15]. I only translated what was in it from German ,it didn't mention any of what your saying. If it mentioned his mom being Harla i would add it with no problem. The Balaw view is included and it's a tiny minority opinion and it was mentioned in the ethnic section. There is no multiple academic sources mentioning it and if we go by WP:WEIGHT i'm not even sure if it even should be added to the page at all . As it says "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not"

What's not neutral POV is giving undue weight to a minority POV above the majority POV and want to remove the lead for it. Because Imam Ahmad being regarded as a Somali should be in the lead because thats a consensus POV WP:MAINSTREAM " This is why Wikipedia gives the most space and prominence to descriptions of a subject that conform to the expert understanding while marginalizing in space and prominence the minority understanding, or even excluding some descriptions or issues that cannot be reliably sourced. To do otherwise would create an encyclopedia that experts would not accept as being of the highest quality"

And read WP:CREATELEAD

"Just as with an article, a lead must adhere to neutral point of view (NPOV), which does not mean "neutral", or that there should be a false balance between opposing POV. All opinions are not equal"

"The mainstream view should get the most weight, so the due weight of the article should read in favor of the mainstream view."

Cheers

Ragnimo (talk) 20:49, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

The statements which you omitted are the following: "This indicates that the father of Gran comes from the Hawiya (Somali tribe) in the Ogaden; a genealogy of eight generations before Gran is known in this lore about the mäläsay who are said to be among the Harla tribes. In the course of history in the land of Harar they would have met with the local Somali, Adal peoples and mixed losing their identity." If you read the full German document, it basically explains that the Harla and Somali were different ethnic groups that got into a heated argument and the subject (Ahmed) divided them into seperate units. This endorses Mohammed Hassan's argument who also claims Imams main guards the malassay were Harla/Harari (who speak closely related languages) see p.33 [16]. It was you who claimed that the same individual persumed his mother was Harla, here [17] but provided no sources. This is the issue despite knowing there's sources that refute your claims you ignored them even after I accused you of Somali POV pushing. We dont claim he is Somali and then create a whole section debating if he is one or not hence why the intro should be left out. Anyways theres too much Somali POV in this article as it is and you're not helping which needs to be addressed by neutral editors at NPOV board. Magherbin (talk) 23:32, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

This is what the text says:

"Through the mediation of Daggazmac Warqnah, he interviewed Ahmad Ali Sami a traditional scholar in Harar. This gives an origin for the father of Gran from the Hawiya (Somali tribe) in the Ogaden; a genealogy of eight generations before Gran is known in this lore. The malasay are said to have belonged to the Harla descent and were originally from the Indian Ocean. In the course of history they had mixed up with the Somali, Adal people and Somali in the land of Harar and lost their identity. Interesting is the close relationship to the Somali, which this oral tradition also emphasizes

You tried to mis-translate the text on purpose to fit an angle and there is full stop cut off between Gran is known in this lore and the next sentence about Malasay. It doesn't say anything about them losing their identity to Somalis, and it's more about their close relationship to Somali if anything. Also says they came from the Indian ocean originally and then mixed in with the people there. Secondly i ommitted the part about Malasay because it has nothing do with his ethnicity or relevancy to the page and the part about him being maternally harla is not mentioned in the text either. So i can't add that even if i wanted to.

You are persistent in making this into a long ethnic debate. It has less to do with me pushing a Somali POV more to do with your own nationalism removing sourced Somali personalities from article and giving undue weight to a minority opinion. The wikipedia guidelines are very clear the Mainstream POV is put in the lead while the minority POV is either not included into the page or marginalized.

The consensus POV among scholars is that Imam Ahmad is Somali and therefore it should be remain on lead.

In the standard Ethiopian historiography,. Imam Ahmad is presented as a Somali.[18]

Same goes for the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica who also mention him as a Somali, its a mainstream POV. There is nothing to debate here.

Neutral POV does not mean "Neutral". Read Wikipedia:How_to_create_and_manage_a_good_lead_section#NPOV,_neutrality,_and_false_balance

"NPOV does not mean "neutral" or neutered content, nor does it mean that there should be a false balance between opposing POV. All opinions are not equal."

"The mainstream view should get the most weight, so the due weight of the article should read in favor of the mainstream view."

Ragnimo (talk) 09:25, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

As stated by another user on the noticeboard [19], the subjects identity is clearly disputed hence you should drop this. Not sure why you bolded the statement that Ahmed Ibrahim had a close relationship with the Somali, this doesn't insinuate his identity was Somali. It only indicates he probably had Somali companions. Based on the evidence I provided on the board [20] its clear that the Ethiopian historians did not consider him to be Somali either Magherbin (talk) 19:46, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

How does Ethiopian historians not consider him Somali? When the source above states that he is presented as a Somali in standard Ethiopian histography. I have added like 8 different sources from different scholars all giving the view that he is Somali. I'M Lewis, Huntingford who translated Futah etc . This is the mainstream view. Even the Famous Ethiopian historian Tekle Merkuria shares this view after he did his investigations in Harar and the information he obtained from Harari traditional Scholar Ahmed As-Sami.

Several reasons are given even on the page for why he is widely considered Somali. He was not only close in relationship to Somalis like companions, several of his family members were married to Somalis and were Somali. His sister Fardowsa married to his general Mattan Al-Somaal, His aunt had a Son Muhammad bin Ali, who was Sultan of the Somali clan of Zerba, He recruited mainly from amongst Somalis as well etc .

All of the major cities associated with Awdal civilization from Dakkar, to Zeila, Abasa, Amoud , and the ruin towns in Ogaden etc and where he was born etc are in Somali inhabited territories.

Hence:

Of the early history of the Imam Ahmad but little is known. He was the son of one Ibrahim el Ghazi, and both he and his father were common soldiers in the troop of Garad Aboun. Nothing even is said as to his nationality. He was certainly not an Arab : probably he was a Somali, for we find him closely connected with many who were Somalis

Explanation like he was not mentioned as a "Soomaal" makes no sense considering at the time , that was an occupational identity worn by Somalis who were nomadic and not an ethnic name, whereas Somalis who were primarly sedentary, urbanites and agriculturalist werent called that. Soomaal only became an ethnic name after the fall of Adal, when the Somalis shifted their lifestyle to mainly pastorialism. You can see this fact explained by archeological research as well:

"But other fatal problems in the form of famines epidemics and the Oromo (Galla) invasion appeared on the horizon. In the end we have a social pattern very different from what we have before the the sixteetnh century upheavals. 'Since all other modes of life were brought to end, pastorialism became the pre-dominant one. As a result, the name, Somali, which was only an occupational name prior to Jihad, evolved into an ethnic name'"

[21]

In the same way early Sedentary Arabs referred to Bendouins(nomads) as "A'raabs" even though they themselves were Arab ethnically/racially:

Muslims of Medina referred to the nomadic tribes of the deserts as the A'raab, and considered themselves sedentary, but were aware of their close racial bonds. The plural noun ʾaʿrāb refers to the Bedouin tribes of the desert who resisted Muhammad, for example in at-Tawba 97,

[[22]]

Same goes for Somalis, some were sedentary urbanists ,farmers and some were nomadic. If distinctions were made they were occupational not Ethnic.

Furthermore Arab Faqih mentions almost nothing about his background, clan or otherwise. He just gives vague unexplained impressions throughout the book, so historians have to connect the dots themselves. Ragnimo (talk) 05:40, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

No response yet to the citations I posted on the board, infact you disappeared after that and came back only when I edited the article. Magherbin (talk) 20:15, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

The board has been archived so i decided to respond here. I didn't dissapear, we both was blocked and i decided to take a break, which i will do from time to time. Wikipedia isn't my job. Like i keep repeating it's a mainstream POV : And 9 different citations from different scholars sharing this view is cited behind this sentence:

Imam Ahmad is regarded by most scholars as an ethnic Somali.

Heck even Huntingford says: [23]

Ahmad Graň was , it has been said , a Somali , ' and his headquarters were on the edge of the Somali country

I could add several more citations that basically echo the same thing that this is a mainstream POV Ragnimo (talk) 13:27, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

References

RFC on ethnicity of Ahmed ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is consensus not to state his ethnicity in the lead. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 09:52, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

---

Should the articles lede state his ethnic background, yes or no? Magherbin (talk) 07:04, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

• No (Summoned by bot) reading the many discussions above and the content of the ethnicity section of the article itself - it appears that the strongest that any claim about ethnicity could be framed is that many, or possibly most, sources think he was probably Somali. A trillion sources claiming that something is probably true would never translate into "is true". Further complications would seem to hang on whether ethnic terms had the same meaning then as now. Since the ethnicity issue cannot be summarised adequately in the opening sentence, the default position would be to omit. This does not appear to be a situation in which a broad sweep of sources strongly hold one view, while a minority hold a contrary one, rather a range of views are held with varying degrees of certainty and no real way to ultimately verify. If that is the case, we should not be imposing certainty in the lead on an inherently uncertain matter, then hoping to present a more nuanced version in the 'ethnicity' section. Pincrete (talk) 10:03, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
• No per Pincrete. Magherbin (talk) 19:58, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
• No I've been following this for a while. Given that there is some disagreement, this is better discussed in the relevant "Ethnicity section". Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:05, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
• No per Pincrete. The Ethnicity section does a good job of discussing the different theories and makes it clear that the issue isn't as straight-forward as just calling him Somali in the lede. PraiseVivec (talk) 13:58, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
• No, because as Pincrete says this is complicated. Probably Somali is not surely Somali.Nyx86 (talk) 16:15, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
• No. After following up on the discussions above, his ethnicity is not that straight forward and should be hence be removed from the lede. BristolTreeHouse (talk) 13:13, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
• No per above. ~ HAL333 18:24, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
• No per Pincrete. --Whiteguru (talk) 01:28, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2021

Ahmed gurey didn’t belong to the Abadir dynasty, since his brother Umar Ad Din belong to The Walashma dynasty according to J. Spencer Trimingham, Islam in Ethiopia (Oxford: Geoffrey Cumberlege for the University Press, 1952), p. 86. Monarer (talk) 08:08, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:26, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

@Monarer: Spencer Trimingham 1952, p. 86 may be a bit ambiguous, but when one looks at other sources (especially Tamrat, Taddesse (1977). "Ethiopia, the Red Sea and the Horn". In Oliver, Roland (ed.). The Cambridge History of Africa. Volume 3: from c. 1050 to c. 1600. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 98–182. ISBN 978-0-521-20981-6. p. 169) it is quite clear that Umar Din was a brother of sultan Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad rather than of Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrahim (I've updated the relevant articles accordingly).

However, our current mention of the Abadir dynasty appear to be entirely unsourced. @Magherbin: since you appear to be the editor who added the mention of the Abadir dynasty to the infobox, can you cite us a reliable source for that (I've added a {{citation needed}} template in the mean time)? Thanks! ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 15:59, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

MA thesis referring to a tourist bureau a reliable source?

@Magherbin: I wrote: A MA thesis is generally not a reliable source, which turns out to be quite true in this case: Wondimu's reference for this is "The Harari Culture,Heritage and Tourism Bureau, p.239"; we will need something better for this, preferably a widely respected academic scholar. Your reply: Get consensus. [24]

Really? I was assuming you picked up this ref ([25]) somewhere without verifying it. But are you really telling us that you consider that MA thesis, or a tourist bureau, a reliable source? Should we really go bother the poor people at WP:RSN with this? ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 17:45, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Common sense states a succession of rulers is considered a dynasty thats why I didnt bother adding a reference. Abadir founded the Harar Muslim state and Ahmed was its leader sometime in the sixteenth century. See this source [26] Magherbin (talk) 17:54, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

That is the timeline of a book on the Ethiopian city of Harar, which obviously starts with its founder Abadir Umar ar-Rida, and goes on to mention Imam Ahmad's religious wars against Ethiopia, either because of Imam Ahmad's purported ties with Harar or because of the impact of these religious wars upon Harar and its environs. Of course, that doesn't establish anything about Imam Ahmad belonging to the Abadir dynasty: it's just two events of historical significance to the city of Harar.

I know not of which succession of rulers you are talking about, and it seems to me that you're unduly inferring a few things here (according to some, Imam Ahmad was from Harar + at some point Imam Ahmad ruled over Harar, so Imam Ahmad must have belonged to 'the' Harari Abadir dynasty), but that's not really important: if Imam Ahmad is truly regarded by scholars a forming part of the Abadir dynasty, it should be relatively easy to find a reliable source saying that in so many words. Without such a source, we can't state it. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 18:21, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

The reference I posted is a timeline of the Harar plateau not the city. You're bringing up the same talking points as GoldenDragonHorn, if editors are going to show up pushing Somali POV, i'll continue cleaning up these pages."According to some"? Its clear you're a Somali POV pusher masquerading as a neutral editor. How are you an RSN volunteer within 4 days of creating an account? The nationalist editors cant distort history here, Ahmed is connected to Harar, the only reason I didnt remove Zeila is due to the fact that the region is historically called this but its up to you guys, if you push a misleading narrative especially on talk pages, I cant allow false information to remain in the articles. Its no surprise that this page is sock prone. Historical revisionism fails here since clearly Ahmed married the emir of Harar (Mahfuz)'s daughter Bati del Wambara, thats why he was leader of Harar. What state with continuous Emirs do you know that doesnt have a dynasty? Read p.44 [27]. See also the reference i've added which specifically states Abadir's successors such as Ahmed took the title imam and were fellow saints. [28]. Magherbin (talk) 03:57, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Magherbin, please slow down a little. If you take a closer look at my account or at my edits, you'll soon find that things are not as you stated.

I'm actually not really familiar with this topic; I just picked up from the article itself that Some sources assert Ahmad was Harari, while others regard him as Afar or Balaw. (which I parsed as "according to some, Imam Ahmad was from Harar"). And yes, having conquered large parts of Ethiopia and having married Bati del Wambara, he obviously at some point became the ruler over Harar. But that does not a dynasty ("a sequence of rulers from the same family") make: Imam Ahmad came to rule over Harar, a city founded centuries before by Abadir Umar ar-Rida, by conquest and marriage, but he wasn't born from a family called "Abadir" descending from Abadir Umar ar-Rida and being the traditional rulers of Harar. That latter thing, a Abadir dynasty, just doesn't seem to exist (cf. Google Scholar). I see just now that you created that article, which explains a lot. I will be nominating it for deletion.

Please rest assured that if you find a reliable source explicitly mentioning an "Abadir dynasty" and pointing out that Imam Ahmad belonged to it ([29] is not it: it just lists rulers of Harar, no dynasty, let alone an Abadir dynasty), we can perfectly keep the Abadir dynasty article and the info here in the infobox. I have absolutely no stake in any of this, except the encyclopedic standard of verifiability. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:40, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Well if you're not familiar with the topic area yet posting walls of text, lets start with the basics. Harar is not an ethnic group but a town and historically an entire region, I think you have it conflated with Harari people. The subject is associated with Harar, one can be non Harari and be a citizen of Harar and vice versa. Anyways you have not addressed the references I posted which tells alot, i'm not interested in looking at the user interface (this isnt an spi case). Lets see how that AFD discussion you opened goes before we continue this discussion. Magherbin (talk) 20:31, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I certainly looked at the references you added to the article, but when I found that they didn't support your claim, and when I then started realizing that this whole Abadir dynasty itself did not actually exist, the whole question became a bit moot, and I plainly forgot to address the new references. But I will do so now (sorry for the wall of text, but you asked me to address this):

Hecht 1987, p. 13 speaks about the Fatḥ madīnat Harar's claims of Harar being founded by the medieval saint Abadir and being ruled after him by a succession of (unnamed) 'saints' (probably awliya'), until it came to be ruled by the secular Walasma dynasty. The secular rulership of the Walasma was then (quite some time after the rule of the saintly successors of Abadir in Harar had ended) contested by a number of religious leaders who took the title of imam, for which Hecht gives the example of Imam Ahmad (clearly implying there were others like him). This does not in any way constitute a claim that Imam Ahmad belonged to the 'saints' who succeeded Abadir: all he had in common with these 'saints' is that he based his rule again on religious motives, opposing the secular hereditary claims to rule such as those of the Walasma dynasty's sultans. Moreover, Hecht explicitly calls the narrative about the 'saints' succeeding Abadir a "legend", indicating that he regards the entire pre-Walasma history of Harar as semi-legendary. Of course, there's no talk at all of any "Abadir dynasty": it appears that these legendary 'saints' themselves were not even supposed to have been descendants of Abadir, let alone the historical Imam Ahmad. Their rule seems to have been based on religious righteousness (a bit like Sunni Muslims regard the early caliphate), not on bloodlines (like Shi'i Muslims envision the caliphate). Of course, any dynasty is fundamentally based on bloodlines, and semi-legendary figures have imaginary bloodlines at best.

As for the Lindahl, Local History of Ethiopia source, there must be a mistake: the pdf doesn't even contain the word "Abadir", and it mentions Imam Ahmed (as it transcribes his name) two times without any reference to something relevant here. Perhaps a wrong pdf?

Anyways, before pointing to a reliable source that explicitly speaks about Imam Ahmad as belonging to the Abadir dynasty, I would like you to point us to a reliable source which speaks about the Abadir dynasty as such. It will be on this that the result of the AfD will depend, and of course if the AfD ends in deletion this discussion would be moot. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:53, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Abadir's real name is Umar or in English Omar perhaps search for that keyword (omar), if you dont want to read the whole page. Pious rulers are considered saints thats the point of the source, this would include Ahmed even his successor Nur ibn Mujahid was a saint, his tomb is venerated. You can be a ruler and a saint thats what Omar was according to the sources. Your interpretation of references is wrong and also the meaning of a dynasty will need to be explained as you seem to have a narrow view for the usage of the term. Magherbin (talk) 23:15, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

A Dynasty of Saints, like Harar is the City of Saints, right? I see where you get the idea. Except that a real dynasty is based on bloodlines, and that your idea is rooted in folk belief rather than in a scholarly treatment of the historical sources. Most importantly, it's your idea, i.e., original research that is not to be found in the existing secondary literature. But let others now judge the merits of our arguments. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 23:29, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

His ethnicity

he was a pure somali , and he belonged to the Mahmed case clans Gadabuursi, a tribe that inhibits zaila since the 13th century, there are no other ethnicity that inhibits zaila till this day.the tribe that sultan sa'ed diin colonized and oppressed, and its the main reason why imaam ahmed gurey declared a war against him, and later on took his throne. It's the Tribe that gave the land , where masjid Qiblaten was built. So i am suggesting that you need to do more research on zaila and the adal empire. It's a clear infringement of the rights of this tribes , when you are saying he was not somali. Deeq rooble wacays (talk) 21:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Is imam ahmed is harari or somali

He is harari 196.191.49.77 (talk) 07:08, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

He was somali darod mareexaan radamir Habarciise 172.58.86.215 (talk) 04:57, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

What sources support either of these? —C.Fred (talk) 11:43, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Ethnicity

If it is largely accepted that he is of Somali ethnicity with minor disputes, why does the detail for early life frame it as if it's equally disputed and puts Harari first? Somali should be listed first with the detail for scholar acceptance of ethnicity being a majority. This seems biased given the countless sources people thow at contrarians. Togawa11 (talk) 09:33, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

There is no general consensus on his ethnic background. محرر البوق (talk) 19:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Building destruction

It states in the article that Ahmed ordered infrastructure to be destroyed however there was a reason for this, the Church specifically was used as a military garrison by the Ethiopians. Perhaps someone can find sources on that as Islamic law forbids destruction of buildings for no apparent reason. Magherbin (talk) 14:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

@Magherbin Well he did destroy numerous Christian buildings. That is a fact. But if you do find a source stating that the churches were used as a military garrison (which actually might be accurate considering that Dawit and his predecessor camped around these sites to oversee their construction) then you can add them. محرر البوق (talk) 19:30, 25 April 2023 (UTC)