Talk:African Americans/Archive 27

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“But not Excusively” in lead Not Needed

But not exclusively not needed in lead. It not only looks tacky but it is also stated in the second paragraph that some Black immigrants come to be called AA due to assimilation. Furthermore, it was already concluded that the Black immigrant statement would be placed in the 2nd paragraph. Now someone is coming to state what is clear in the 2nd paragraph back in the first. ??????

The but not exclusively statement in the lead should be taken out.

We have had this discussion for a long time. African American is its own ethnicity and ppl assimilate to it if they are immigrants into the country. Citation: https://ipr.osu.edu/becoming-black-african-immigrant-integration-united-states

“Immigrants from Sub-Saharan Africa constitute the fastest growing group of immigrants in the United States today, yet we know less about their processes of assimilation and integration than other groups of immigrants. Research on black immigrants from the Caribbean suggests that the immigration experience of African immigrants will look quite different from many previous groups of immigrants, largely because assimilation for black immigrants risks exposure to the many forms of discrimination and inequalities faced by native-born black Americans.“

“African- Americans have rightly laid claim to a unique identity” Smithsonian Scholar (see previous thread)

Also see first paragraph at this link: https://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=cfssr_publishedwork

Even genetics can point it out: “Our results also indicate that the genetic architecture of African Americans is distinct from that of Africans” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812948/

Ethnicity points it out by the whole fact it is an ETHNIC GROUP: “Ethnicity is more than skin color or physical characteristics, more than language, song, and dance. It is the embodiment of values, institutions, and patterns of behavior, a composite whole representing a people’s historical experience, aspirations, and world view. Deprive a people of their ethnicity, their culture, and you deprive them of their sense of direction or purpose.”

The government and social studies has even noted how Black immigrants can HIGHLIGHT their own ethnicities to get ahead in some cases, meaning that Black immigrants do in fact have their OWN ETHNICITIES. “Several authors suggest that black immigrants’ ethnicity gives them an advantage over U.S.-born blacks in dealings with whites (Bashi Bobb and Clarke 2001; Foner 1985; Waters 1994). If this holds true, black immigrants may improve their residential outcomes by highlighting their ethnicity to distinguish themselves”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8713952/

Also see this link on assimilation: https://sociology.princeton.edu/events/black-immigrants-use-african-american-strategy-mobility-through-higher-education

WayMaQueen (talk) 14:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

@WayMaQueen: A WP:BLUDGEON is not the best instrument for using in discussions with your fellow editors. Rsk6400 (talk) 15:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Wasn’t trying to. You would always send me here constantly whenever I tried to utilize another way and requested I put up citations and links. That’s the only reason I did so. No issues with anyone or any discussions as some are necessary, which is why Talk is utilized as discussion. WayMaQueen (talk) 17:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• We now have similar sentences back-to-back:

  "The term "African American" generally denotes descendants of Africans enslaved in the United States.

  Most African Americans are descendants of enslaved people within the boundaries of the present United States."

  Can we merge into the second sentence with something like

  "The term "African American" generally denotes descendants of Africans enslaved in the United States, and most African Americans are such descendants."

  Could use some more wordsmithing. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:45, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

  I personally feel like it works good as is because the other stresses within the boundaries of present day USA and leads into the next sentence well. WayMaQueen (talk) 18:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Black American Music

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 18 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kananstark, Kylaalexander (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by 752Sunvoices! (talk) 21:17, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

New map

Black Americans (alone) in each US county

Following this discussion, I created this map mostly to replace File:Absenceblacks.png, but also to complement File:Black Americans by county.png. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks. M.Bitton (talk) 02:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

North American ?

@Freee Contributor: First: Please read WP:BRD and don't edit war. Then: Why should we call African Americans a "North American" group ? Black Canadians and Afro-Mexicans are not called "African Americans". Then: "North American ethnic group consisting of Americans" sound a bit funny, doesn't it ? Rsk6400 (talk) 12:19, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not referring to Black Canadians or Afro-Mexicans. I'm referring to the African-Americans who've settled Canada for 2 centuries setting up towns and villages in Canada. Namely, the Black Nova Scotians. If you see the Afrikaners page, you can see they're called Southern Africans because they've lived in Namibia and Botswana for 2 centuries, even though the bulk of their history in Southern Africa has only been in South Africa. Freee Contributor (talk) 12:22, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Would you prefer "North American ethnic group whose ancestors primarily date back to the Colonial United States as slaves or freemen"? Freee Contributor (talk) 12:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

No, I think the lead sentence is less confusing as it is now. Rsk6400 (talk) 12:25, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

But African-Americans are a North American ethnic group. Freee Contributor (talk) 12:26, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

There are African Americans in many places. More than 99% are in the United States. It's fine to refer mainly to the vast majority, and mention the few exceptions in some lower-profile places. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

But there have been African-Americans in Canada for centuries. If you look at the Afrikaners page, you can see the vast majority live in South Africa but because they've also lived in Namibia and Botswana for 1-2 centuries, they're called Southern African. Freee Contributor (talk) 14:30, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

For how long have African Americans been living in Sierra Leone or Liberia ? According to African Americans in France, their presences in France started in the 1800s. Rsk6400 (talk) 16:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes but the ethnic group in question came to be in North America Freee Contributor (talk) 17:30, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not convinced by your arguments. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The fact remains that African-Americans are a North American ethnic group Freee Contributor (talk) 18:57, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD

Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Sgt. Samuel Smith, African American soldier in Union uniform with wife and two daughters.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for February 1, 2025. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2025-02-01. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you!  — Amakuru (talk) 12:11, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

African Americans, also known as Afro-Americans or Black Americans, are an ethnic group consisting of Americans with partial or total ancestry from any of the Black racial groups of Africa. African Americans constitute the third largest racial or ethnic group in the U.S. after White Americans and Hispanic and Latino Americans. Most African Americans are descendants of enslaved people, having West African and coastal Central African ancestry, with varying amounts of Western European and Native American ancestry. This ambrotype depicts African American Union soldier Sgt. Samuel Smith, of the 119th United States Colored Troops, with his family in c. 1863–65.

Ambrotype credit: unattributed photographer

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Terminology / General — Frequency of Use prior to 1980

The term African American, popularized by Jesse Jackson in the 1980s, although it was in regular use as far back for the ethnic group in the 18th and 19th centuries, for example, in post-emancipation holidays and conferences,

We could improve the WP:WEIGHT of the references to "african american" use prior to 1980. There are practically zero references in books prior to 1980

We have some good citations here including the 1800s newspaper, but in all there might be half a dozen references recorded prior to Jessee Jackson inventing the term.

African american was not in regular use. Negro was in regular use, and "african american" was an extremely rare exception until 1980.

Tonymetz 💬 21:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

"regular use" was not supported by the text, and I've adjusted the article text accordingly. Good catch. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:59, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Black American over African American

I have been reading that "Black American" is taking precedence as the newest, best preferred term over "African American." Is either acceptable in most articles right now? Iljhgtn (talk) 18:56, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, is it appropriate to capitalize the "B" in "Black Americans" or is it "black Americans"? Iljhgtn (talk) 20:51, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

It is correct to capitalize the B in Blacks, as in L for Latinos and A for Asians. However is its NOT correct to do the same for w in whites. Associated Press and New York Times have determined that "white doesn’t represent a shared culture and history in the way Black does." (Personally I see this as regressive in implying all Black cultures are similar, when in reality they are quite varied.) The underlying message however is that whites are the only racial group not befitting a capital letter.

https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-cultures-race-and-ethnicity-us-news-ap-top-news-7e36c00c5af0436abc09e051261fff1f 107.192.19.201 (talk) 21:03, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

We follow MOS:RACECAPS. It's "Black and White" or "black and white". Rsk6400 (talk) 09:07, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

The most recent move discussion happened last march (link), and it ended in consensus against such a move. I'd recommend researching whether things have changed when it comes to RS usage of the terms. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:34, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

That was not a very thoroughly responded to RfC. Would be logical to have another. Iljhgtn (talk) 18:31, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

At the very least we can say that Black American should be prioritized over Afro-American right? Google searching "Afro Americans"/"Afro-Americans" gives 1.5 million results while "Black Americans" gives around 24.6 million. (Both are searched with quotation marks included) Gabecube45 (talk) 20:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Support for "Black American" as the recommended preferred usage instead of "Afro", "Afro-" or "African American". Black American is the best, most neutral, and widely used term. Iljhgtn (talk) 15:40, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: On Google books, "Black African" brings up 2,080,000 results [1], whilst "African American" brings up 23,100,000 results [2].I don't know of anyone who uses the old fashioned term "Afro American". To use it as an example is most inappropriate.Tamsier (talk) 16:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

African American flag in lead infobox

Hello @Rsk6400,

You reverted my edit which placed the Black American Heritage Flag in the lead infobox, saying that the flag is not universally accepted. Would you have any sources to back up your claim?

I can't find anything saying the flag is universally accepted as well, though I did get flooded with a lot of results on Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/discover/black-american-heritage-flag

There have also been at least two instances, that made the news, where the flag was incorporated into fashion: https://girlsunited.essence.com/article/saweetie-met-gala-filipino-black-culture/ and https://www.milwaukeemag.com/this-milwaukee-native-won-the-united-states-of-america-ms-pageant/ Evaporation123 (talk) 03:10, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

We need sources for claims, not for the absence of claims. That's why I think to add the flag, you'd need good sources that positively say that the Black American Heritage Flag is universally accepted as representing the group of African Americans. Tiktok videos or fashion articles are not considered reliable sources. You can find more about reliable sources at WP:RS. Rsk6400 (talk) 08:03, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

The flag was designed by an artist who self published (BookBaby) as cited in the flag's article without page number. Many of the article's refs are not reliable and from social media. Protesting here may also lead other editors to that article and nominate it for deletion as potential WP:OR.Tamsier (talk) 16:22, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 May 2024

17:05, 17 May 2024 (UTC)188.10.18.131 (talk)

Some African Americans are descendants of enslaved people within the boundaries of the present United States. While some Black immigrants or their children may also come to identify as African American, the majority of first-generation immigrants do not, preferring to identify with their nation of origin. Some African Americans are of West African and coastal Central African ancestry, with varying amounts of Western Europe.

188.10.18.131 (talk) 17:05, 17 May 2024 (UTC)}}

There was previously a citation to a source from Martin & Fabes that specified that African-Americans had to be descendants of people enslaved specifically within the United States, but I WP:BOLDly removed that source as Martin & Fabes is an introductory child development textbook, and neither of the authors claim to be experts in racial identity or anything remotely related to being a reliable source for the term "African American" (both are white psychologists, one specialized in gender identity, the other in children's relationships). I moved up another source from later in the article that talks about the introduction of the phrase, but neither it nor the remaining Locke and Bailey source specify that the ancestors have to have been enslaved within the United States. Therefore, I am proposing changing the sentence to:

The term "African American" generally denotes American descendants of those taken from Africa as part of the Atlantic slave trade.

Since this sentence has been the subject of a few discussions here in the past, I wanted to bring this to the talk page first.

References
References

--Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)