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Theft of Benin Culture

The Wikipedia page on Ada and abaren is a fake history written by yoruba revisionists. The Ada and Eben swords are academically proven to be the swords of authority of the Oba of Benin.

The Oni of ife copied those swords and rather than acknowledging the original owner, he created a fake story in which the sword originates from an imaginary ife empire and was given to Benin and others by ife. This story is being propped up on Wikipedia by yoruba supremacists.

Please could you take African history more seriously and stop publishing biased claims and fairytales as history ?

Please remove this story, you are helping to rewrite African history with these fake stories.

I repeat: the Ada and Eben have no relationship with ife, they are the symbol of authority of the Oba of Benin who lead a large empire (see precolonial maps). They were even captured by the British invaders of Benin empire and they are exposed in the British museum.

Attributing these Benin swords to ife is easily proven false and this clearly exposed Wikipedia to lawsuits.2A04:CEC0:1926:E62C:0:31:8BE6:EE01 (talk) 19:51, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. You should be aware that making or appearing to make legal threats is strictly prohibited on Wikipedia and users who do so are subject to immediate blocks.
Aside from that, a key principle of Wikipedia is that we assume good faith; someone having a different idea about a topic or how to frame an article is almost never a result of some kind of malevolence. We decide things here by consensus, and achieving consensus is made harder when your starting point is that the people you disagree with are part of some kind of conspiracy.
I won't weigh in on the substance of the content dispute because I know nothing about it, but please refrain from wiping large amounts of material from the article without consensus or writing commentary into the text. The matter can be worked out here, through discussion, but other users will probably want you to make close reference to reliable sources. AntiDionysius (talk) 21:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I started the discussion page, but the other contributors to the article didn't even join the discussion page. It is the history of my people which is being swept away by your assumptions of good faith. History is being politicised in Nigeria by people who want to promote their ethnic groups to the detriment of other ethnic groups and Wikipedia is becoming a useful tool to that aim. The Ada and Eben already has an article on Wikipedia but you allow a group of interested people to write an other article on it contradicting the previous article.
If you don't have any knowledge on the subject, then isn't it better than you do some research before taking a decision one way or the other ?
Science and knowledge is not about consensus but about facts. Indeed if we both agree that the sky is green, we would both be wrong eventhough it is our conensus. 2A04:CEC0:1926:E62C:0:31:8BE6:EE01 (talk) 21:47, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not taking a decision one way or the other, I'm advising you on how Wikipedia works. For all I know you're totally right and this page should be deleted - but what I do know is that you don't get to make that call unilaterally.
"Science and knowledge is not about consensus but about facts" - sure, but this isn't scienceandknowledge.com, this is wiki.riteme.site, and consensus is how we do things here. It's in the rules. AntiDionysius (talk) 22:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You never presented anything that counters what was present with verifiable evidence, you were only deleting the verified facts presented by other users. Sohvyan (talk) 11:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you letting people distort our history Hydranova (talk) 10:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have some proposed changes? If you can be specific about what you'd like to see altered, and some evidence to back it up, we can discuss the possibility. AntiDionysius (talk) 10:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I can bring pictures of Benin bronze that has Ada and eben to it that is currently in the British museum with this bronze artefact are more than 2000 years old
The whole page ada and eben has been edited by yuroba people I will love this page to be restored to the first edition of the page in 2023 let them go and create Ida and abere page and leave Ada and eben page Hydranova (talk) 10:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, pictures alone can't be the basis of an article; we're more looking for articles, books etc. about the artefacts.
There aren't any restrictions on what kind of person can edit what article. Wikipedia works on the principle of consensus, where if there are disagreements about how an article should look, we discuss it and figure out a version that is acceptable to everyone. AntiDionysius (talk) 10:39, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And books about it Hydranova (talk) 10:39, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Books are usually good sources. The most useful way to have these discussions is generally to propose your changes in a "change X to Y" format; say exactly what you think should be changed, and then provide a specific reference to a specific source that supports your proposal. AntiDionysius (talk) 10:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have two article on it I have from S.A akintoye work and egharevba work Hydranova (talk) 10:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How do I send the article to you Hydranova (talk) 10:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can just post the link here - because it's not for me, it's for everyone. AntiDionysius (talk) 11:08, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I thought you said if I drop proof you will revert it Hydranova (talk) 11:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say that. I said we use a consensus-based process. I'm trying to get a discussion started that will get us moving towards such a consensus. AntiDionysius (talk) 16:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I drop proof will you allow my edit stay? Hydranova (talk) 16:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you material that is properly sourced, yes, I would have no reason to remove it. But two things:
1. That only applies to adding things. Please do not delete material already in the article which has citations. Such deletion would need to have consensus here on the talk page, since this is clearly something over which there is disagreement.
2. Please make sure to include your source in the article as a reference, rather than just posting it here on the talk page. AntiDionysius (talk) 16:43, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure thing Hydranova (talk) 16:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References lack verification

I checked the sources for the article and most lack verification. The others lack page numbers and quotation for fact checking. Sources 1, 2 and 3 in the lead do not mention ada and abere or eben. The journal by Parrinder (1956), states the "swords of justice and mercy" used by Ife on page 116 but it does not relate it to ada and eben. The 2nd journal does not touch on aba and eben at all. All book sources in the article lack page numbers. I have read sources 5 and 8. But it seems the interpretation was out of place. For example, the Johnson book (source 5, 1921) on page 45 does indeed talk about the acts of worship at the grave of Oduduwa. However, the sword of justice is documented in the book as Ida Oranyan. The source does not relate them to Ada and eben.

Due to the poor state of references in the article, I added a quotation needed tag to all sources that lack page numbers in order for its original editor to provide the page and quotations for easier verification. Moreover, I highlighted a paragraph with a dubious tag where the editor combined two sources to form their own conclusion which is improper editorial synthesis. Kwesi Yema (talk) 22:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In good faith I have gone ahead and added quotes for every relevant source available, but I have to say I have never seen this degree of scrutiny applied on any Wikipedia topic.
To address what you said here;
You have concluded that the Ida-oranmiyan is the sword of justice, that's good. So next you should be looking for the Sword of Mercy, something else hopefully described also as a state sword. I believe a good faith analysis of the etymology you dubbed as dubious would be enough, but since it is not. I have provided the direct quote in the old Yoruba dictionary showing that Abere is the Yoruba name for another state sword, logic follows then, that this should be the missing sword of mercy to pair with the sword of justice you said is the Ida-oranmiyan.
I have also provided direct quotes showing that what Bini people call Eben today was called Ebere in the Oba of Benin's palace during Cyril Punch's visit, It should not require much thought to then conclude that Abere and Ebere are the same object. I have also provided a direct quote of the Bini people calling Akure Ekue, its worth noting this is a regular occurrence, as with other borrowed words like Ade -> Ede, Ado -> Edo, Olori -> Oloi etc. I do not believe this requires a deep understanding of linguistics to follow.
As explained with evidences and pictures, Ada, Ida, and Uda are all variant pronunciations sourced in the Yoruba verb "da". No other language is recorded to break down the word Ada into smaller parts and explain the idea of justice and judgement as seen in the Yoruba verb "da", so it is sensible to conclude that the sword of justice and it's variants are sourced in the Yoruba language.
I believe all this is more than enough evidence for the Sword of Justice and the Sword of Mercy, being dubbed Ada and Abere. Sohvyan (talk) 05:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What are you even talking Ada and Ida are not the same eben and abere are not the same don't you see the spelling and the pronunciation why don't you check the British article about our looted artefacts Hydranova (talk) 10:22, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Vandalism/ edit warring you and your other accounts are doing will likely get you blocked. Dolpina (talk) 14:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sohvyan, this article, along with your contributions are a case of WP:SYNTH. None of the sources have linked Ada with a sword of justice. Ada and aberen are not mentioned in the sources at all. The Yoruba dictionary on page 2, says Abere is a sword used by kings of certain tribes. It does not say Abere is the sword of mercy. Throughout the article, you have reached conclusions that the sources do not say. WP SYNTH writes that, we must not imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. furthermore, you have also combined sources to reach a conclusion not supported by the sources. Such is the case of this section and another. The book does not say the archaeological art is an ada or aberen. It is not your job to decide that. The entire article is problematic. The original article (Rev 1153946537) was titled ada and eben with completely different sources until an editor redirected the page into something else. Kwesi Yema (talk) 15:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly it's Ebe and not abere there is no source that's abere is that states that abere is a sword of justice
THE SYMBOLISM OF ADA AND EBEN
The symbolism of Ada and Eben is not just the symbolism of our kingdom insignia but it portrays the historical tenacity and traditional uniqueness of the Benin people. The introduction of Ada and Eben kindly justify the evolving intelligence of the Benin at the time where other Nation states had not understood the principle of co-habitation.
Ogiso Ere (16-66AD.) who is largely attributed to the invention of this uncommon royal art perfection is simply the most dynamic and most decorated ruler of all the Ogisos in the first dynastic phase of our Monarchical era.
The Ada, in the form of its variant, the UMOZO, remained the main battle weapon of Benin, even well after the coming of the Europeans five hundred years ago.
The ADA is the superior emblem, and it takes precedence, wherever it appears, over the Eben. All chiefs are invested with the authority to possess the Eben. But it is only a number of them who are additionally conferred with the right to possess the Ada. Titles which have this right are called: EGIE ADA. In Old Benin an Enogie, or Ovie (in Urhobo land) could not order the execution of any of his subjects unless the right to possess the Ada had been conferred on him by the Oba of Benin.
The Egie Ada chiefs of the Ogiso Era, notably the UZAMA nobles: the Oliha, the Edohen, the Ero, the Eholor n’ire, hoisted their Ada as they made their way through the streets of Benin to the Ogiso palace, and later, with the change of dynasty, to the Oba palace at USAMA. But some seven hundred and fifty years ago when Oba Ewedo came to the throne and moved from USAMA to the Ogbe Ogiso n’Uzamakon, the present Benin palace site, he engineered the loss of that right by the Egie Ada Chiefs. Since that time no other Ada has remained aloft in the presence of the Oba of Benin with his own lofted Ada.
Ada is the sword of State(Authority) while the Eben is a ceremonial sword, the Ada must at all times be on the right side of the Oba or any king or Chiefs that have ancestral connections to ancient throne of the Benin Monarch.
For the great and tremendous contribution of Ogiso Ere, he is still remembered in Edo history and many bear names which cherish his memory. This is attested to by names such as Eresogie, Otamere, Erebo, Eresoyen Eregbowa, Eresuyi, Erediauwa, Eregie and so on.
ADA and EBEN forms the basis of which we are recognized all of the world and it attest the political and traditional influence we have over a wide range of other ethnic nationalities in which the beauty of ADA and EBEN stand aloft as it is the symbol of the greatness of our past since it was first used by Ogiso Ere about 2000 years ago.
Please reverse the change to the first edition of 2023
Hydranova (talk) 15:36, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The first edition was three sources, two of them from a personal blog and the other from another personal blog. Two sources Wikipedia isn't too keen on from what I've read in the instructions pages. You can read some of it. Dolpina (talk) 16:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The ada and the abere are without a doubt yoruba state swords. I will add additional sources making that very clear.
My sources also say that the state swords are called the sword of justice and the sword of mercy.
I find it ridiculous that this much bad faith is being read into the submission, never the less, I will update the article to be exactly in line with sources and leave no room for bad will. It is grotesque that people providing zero academic sources are allowed to repeatedly vandalise this page. Sohvyan (talk) 17:25, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ada and Eben are not Yoruba swords. They are Benin staffs. I am neither Benin nor Yoruba and this is the most blatant case of culture theft I have seen in my life. Greatesteverliveth (talk) 17:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter who you say you are, the only case that has been made throughout the existence of this page is from those with the academic sources showing its yoruba origin. Sohvyan (talk) 17:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That source is biased. Greatesteverliveth (talk) 17:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would be helpful if you could explain why it is you think that. AntiDionysius (talk) 18:03, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This object is one of the most recognizable cultural symbols of Nigeria. It is of Benin kingdom.

I am not even Benin and I know this to be linked to Benin people. That is why I am just infuriated by the yoruba audacity in attempting to claim it.
I will try and send more links if I can. Greatesteverliveth (talk) 18:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It isnt just a staff to Benin people, It is the "coat of arms" of Benin Kingdom. Look at this picture. The two swords on the throne are the Ada and Eben.
(Sorry I dont know how to shorten links)
<LINK https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-samsung-gn-rev1&sca_esv=72c864a1bde62694&sxsrf=ADLYWIJd_wxzoNSzvgh7nAhTLuBuBY72fg:1730314534257&q=palace+of+oba+of+benin+ada+eben&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0Aa4sjWe7Rqy32pFwRj0UkWd8nbOJfsBGGB5IQQO6L3JzWreY9LW7LdGrLDAFqYDH32tgteNhtZOxnGezgnEGc89hhJz4x-9WBqmtuEUTftK1HzMxc_wxS5jp7U2Hne5ALfdbCPeqebl5qUJYetw0sCD2YNC27jC3C-6GvR_-2fM7gxfx_cfsFxcCAdRp_D5A5qUYjD&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiBzqf547aJAxUBUkEAHUP8O3sQtKgLegQIFBAB&biw=412&bih=732&dpr=3.5#imgrc=cp6GzjET2U4dDM&imgdii=zMeJvOKG6JtOZM> Greatesteverliveth (talk) 18:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My take is this and I am using the citation on the page to judge:
Is this object a symbol to yorubas? Yes
Is it a object a symbol to Fon, Ga and Benin? Yes
So why is there an overemphasis on just yoruba culture. That is why it looks like the artifact is being commandeered by Yoruba.
I advise the opening sentence be changed to something more inclusive because you cannot just exaggerate the yoruba culture and relegate the culture of others to the background
Most especially since yoruba are stealing other people's culture here.
Greatesteverliveth (talk) 15:54, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a symbol of yuroba Hydranova (talk) 15:56, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yoruba
Dolpina (talk) 15:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure the emphasis is because it originated from Yoruba culture. No sources states otherwise. Accusing "Yorubas" of "stealing other people's culture" is bigotry. Dolpina (talk) 15:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was Adan and Eben this Yoruba people changed it to Ada and Abere and the admins are just letting them edit without proof Hydranova (talk) 16:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
saying "this yoruba people" won't help you. If anything this version is the most unbiased and even mentioned other groups who adopted it including in Benin Kingdom. The initial article was written with bias and posted two opinion blog posts as source and didn't mention the groups it's linked with or the origin stated in verified peer reviewed journals, books and corresponding articles. You are biased. Dolpina (talk) 16:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like you are a Yoruba admin cause you can't tell me a page that has been existing for years someone came up and edited it and you decided to approve it 🤦🤦🤦 Hydranova (talk) 16:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Im not an Admin by the way. I'm sure you think the admin that blocked you from editing this post for 6 months, is also a Yoruba admin? Dolpina (talk) 16:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a discussion on this talk page where Yoruba were called out for stealing the culture of the Benin. Greatesteverliveth (talk) 16:02, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By Benins not any neutral party, this is just ethnic rivary, there is no truth to that claim. No one else said that except those who try to downplay others history and facts, post self published blogs as "citation" and "sources" and get called out. Dolpina (talk) 16:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have sources Hydranova (talk) 16:06, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If so, let it be known. And please don't post an unsourced blog post. Also don't vandalise what is already written and sourced. Dolpina (talk) 16:12, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Check the source there are no sources that's stated that Ada and Eben is from Yoruba infact they don't use Ada and Eben yet can check the pictures online only Benin and other tribe whose ancestors migrated from Benin uses Ada and Eben can't you see at first they change the name then they changed the topic I have sources that shows ada and eben started from Benin Hydranova (talk) 16:06, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest the header should be changed to:

The Ada and Abere, also known as the Ada and Aberen/Eben, are sceptres of authority in Yorubaland, Fon, Ga and Benin Kingdom since ancient times. Ada, the Sword of Justice, and Abere, the Sword of Mercy, represent ancient rights. Both sceptres are mainly used for royalty, authority proclamation and ceremonial activities Greatesteverliveth (talk) 16:06, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No please let it be reversed to the original version it has been there for years can't you see this people suddenly made changes to it? Hydranova (talk) 16:08, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it wasn't there for years,it was created in late 2023 and for some reason by passed peoples radars, if not it would have been edited away. Even if it was there for years, unsourced content is unsourced content. Dolpina (talk) 16:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's simple you want source I will provide source when I edit I have Jacob egharevba book Hydranova (talk) 16:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"I" don't want source. Wikipedia wants sources, not me. I'm just telling you what is written in the rules that everyone has access to read. Also vandalism, and indiscriminate revisions that you were doing is also something that's bot allowed. Just saying. Dolpina (talk) 16:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the title of that Jacob's book. Greatesteverliveth (talk) 17:03, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the origin shows it to be originated from Yoruba, it has the right to be stated. Historical significance and roots are important irregardless of adaptation. This is why there are word etymology for things like borrowed words. We don't pretend a borrowed word is on the same category word in its original language and default. Dolpina (talk) 16:15, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are just a typical Yoruba person with admin power 🤦🤦🤦 did the reference they posted shows that Ada and eben is from Yoruba the source only show Ida and abere 🤦🤦 the original name of the page was Ada and eben 🤦🤦🤦 you can't tell me go and check the original post can't you see these people started by changing the name? Hydranova (talk) 16:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to enjoy going against Wikipedia rules. Dolpina (talk) 16:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry you can have the page we will create another page🤦🤦🤦 I don't know if you are dumb how on earth is Ida and Ada same thin and eben and abere same thing Hydranova (talk) 16:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We will report it to the admins. This one na just editor. Admins go check am fast. Greatesteverliveth (talk) 17:08, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would not be possible to create another article about the same topic. AntiDionysius (talk) 17:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ogun kpai your unborn children for this lie Hydranova (talk) 16:23, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Kwesi Yema I want to report this behaviour and insults. I need your input as a more experienced Wikipedian. Dolpina (talk) 16:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@AntiDionysiusI need help from more experienced Wikipedians and Admins on this User who doesn't seem to care about mutual respect. Dolpina (talk) 16:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
😂😂😂😂 lol you want respect when you miscreant are distorting 3000 years of history 😂😂😂 there is no such thing as Ida and abere you miscreant came up with it to distort our history Hydranova (talk) 16:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I never insulted you u can cry more ogun kpai Omo ni yen Hydranova (talk) 16:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just googled it. This is obviously a Benin staff. Why are yorubas so interested in stealing this culture? Greatesteverliveth (talk) Greatesteverliveth (talk) 17:07, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The title is brief Benin history Hydranova (talk) 17:08, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please remember that Wikipedia editors are asked to Assume Good Faith of each other. Someone having a different idea about an article than you is probably not out of a desire to "steal" anything. Decisions here are made on consensus agreement, and that's kind of hard to achieve if everyone is assuming everyone else is acting maliciously. AntiDionysius (talk) 17:11, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you edit it and change the name back? Hydranova (talk) 17:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't do that. AntiDionysius (talk) 17:11, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He or someone else just did, how can they be allowed to vandalise the page constantly without providing any sources? I gathering additional sources right now too. Sohvyan (talk) 17:38, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yorubas do not claim other people's culture because you have more population than them. I will not stand for that. Greatesteverliveth (talk) 17:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are from he opposing ethnic group here attacking the other. Do better. Dolpina (talk) 18:25, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Investigation

The original article was titled Ada and Eben, created by Omorodion1. On 27 October, the sources were replaced and its contents were changed as the article was renamed Ada and Aberen which is the current revision. However, none of the sources of the article verify Ada and Aberen as the state swords of justice and mercy. They aren't mentioned at all with the exception of a dictionary which translates Aberen as a state sword "used by kings of certain tribes". I did a quick check for general WP:RS and most books I've come across support "Ada and Eben" as opposed to "Ada and Aberen". The material I've gotten so far attribute it in relation to Benin culture as well. Please note them below;

1. ([1]) page 28

2.([2]) page 139

3.([3] page 76

4. ([4]) page 30

5.([5]) Gen. History of Africa page 515. It attributes Ere of Benin for introducing ada and eben to Benin.

My research shows there are more sources in support of "Ada and Eben" as a Benin material culture. If that's the case, the page will be named Ada and Eben with the use of the books I've shared as sources. "Ada and Abere" or "Aberen" lacks reliable sources and verification. However, editors are welcomed to provide reliable sources for expatiation. @AntiDionysius and Vanderwaalforces, you are invited to check the sources shared for verification.

  1. ^ https://books.google.com/books?id=4fEqEQAAQBAJ&pg=PA28&dq=ada+and+eben+sword&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjg94ye07aJAxXRVkEAHbKOGAQQuwV6BAgFEAc#v=onepage&q=ada%20and%20eben%20sword&f=false
  2. ^ https://books.google.com/books?id=jsK6O1jtcTIC&pg=PA139&dq=ada+and+eben+sword&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjg94ye07aJAxXRVkEAHbKOGAQQuwV6BAgKEAY#v=onepage&q=ada%20and%20eben%20sword&f=false
  3. ^ https://books.google.com/books?id=MohUDmsRf3oC&pg=PA76&dq=ada+and+eben+sword&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=ada%20and%20eben%20sword&f=false
  4. ^ https://books.google.com/books?id=Q8PDPDRgO4sC&pg=PA30&dq=ada+and+eben+Benin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwirvPXb1baJAxXtQUEAHT1HBJsQuwV6BAgNEAg#v=onepage&q=ada%20and%20eben%20Benin&f=false
  5. ^ https://books.google.com/books?id=tw0Q0tg0QLoC&pg=PA515&dq=ada+and+eben+Benin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPpqai1raJAxWLbEEAHWvSOy84ChDoAXoECAcQAw#v=onepage&q=ada%20and%20eben%20Benin&f=false

Kwesi Yema (talk) 18:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Kwesi. Welldone

Let me add that, when I first came into the discussion, I believed the opening sentence should inclusive of both Yoruba and Benin.

However upon looking deeper I discovered that it was a Benin object. And this is as blatant as someone from California claiming the cowboy hat isn't from Texas but from LA.

This are links to sites that sell artifacts. You can see that archeologists who dug this staff even in ancient times tagged it as coming out it is of Benin heritage.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/price-result/african-edobenin-nigeria-ceremonial-adaeben-honor-dancing-scepter-short-sword/

https://rayspremierauction.com/auction/230-african-tribal-collections/lot-3170-african-edo/

I hope this helps also.
Greatesteverliveth (talk) 18:11, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you acting like an Admin with a new account? You are clearly Benin (the opposing ethnic group), and the ethnic angle you are using is very clear. Dolpina (talk) 18:31, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am new here. I am not like you who created an account 27 days ago to spread falsehood using Wikipedia as a tool for that.
And if you think I am from Benin, that is purely your concern. There is a reason why anonymity is encouraged on Wikipedia. I wont divulge my identity so you dont send your yoruba oppressive government police to locate me.
Ada and Eben isnt Yoruba. Thanks. Greatesteverliveth (talk) 18:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I dispute that ada and abere are from unreliable sources. In the first ever mention of Ogisos ever, egbareva, the chief benin historian states that they came from ife, and this Ogiso Ere you are talking about who introduced the ada and abere is identified in "D. M. Bondarenko & P. M. Roese, “Ancient Benin: Where Did The First Monarchs Come From?” as the second yoruba monarch from ife, the third which then returned to ife.
Modern revision that contradict these first narratives are dismissed as moves made entirely for political expediency.
The etymologies of these names cannot be dismissed because language is the oldest record.
I will include all my sources in my submission, but the lack of good faith towards the evidences I have provided is apparent. Sohvyan (talk) 19:03, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sohvyan I just checked the journal you mentioned about. The author argues based on oral sources that Benin may have originated from Udo near Ife. However, it does not state that "Ada and Abere" are Ife swords descended unto Benin. Only Eben is mentioned on page 192 and it states:...The first rulers of the 2nd dynasty continued to perform ceremonies at Ugbekun personally. But in the mid 15th century Oba Esigie cut this practice down and appointed the Ohenso to be priest of the Ogiso altars. From this time on every new supreme ruler sent his sword-bearers, called Emada, with the ceremonial sword (eben) and gifts for sacrifices during coronation ceremonies to the Ohenso.
As you can see, your source does not say these swords originate from the Yoruba. And the word Eben is used which provides more legitimacy to "Ada and Eben" as opposed to Abere/Aberen. Provide WP:Reliable sources that explicitly say Ada and Aberen are Yoruba ceremonial swords. Stop forming your own conclusion for sources. That is WP:Original Research Kwesi Yema (talk) 19:51, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is you who said Ere introduced the Abere, I mearly said he, as the 2nd ogiso, is said to be of ife/yoruba origin by first accounts in that paper, as was Obaship later on. These are not MY conclusions, but analysis of the earliest accounts.
You even deleted my submission that showed cyril punch documenting the sword as "Ebere" in the oba of benin's palace in 1889. Mind you this visit is the FIRST EVER account where the object is named. Anything else after that is secondary. Sohvyan (talk) 20:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sohvyan, this is the source you cited that supposedly contains the Cyril Punch description.[1] You originally wrote The Bini people, who have a linguistic connection with the Yoruba, refer to this emblem as Ẹbẹ̀n. Provide a quotation and the page that says the "Bini people refer to Aberen as Eben because of a linguistic connection." Also provide the quotation where it says "This is the first ever account of the object." Notice! Deliberately writing information that the sources do not state will get you banned. Kwesi Yema (talk) 20:23, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I said that the Bini people, who have a linguistic connection with the Yoruba, refer to THIS EMBLEM as Ẹbẹ̀n, YES. That's literally the same thing you are arguing right now. I ALSO say that the first DOCUMENTED description of the object refers to it as an EBERE. Which I followed up with the evidence that you DELETED. Your threats don't mean a thing to me. You can't accuse me or punish me for something I didn't do, my updated post will clear all doubt. Sohvyan (talk) 20:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, no one is getting threatened here. If you believe your contributions are legitimate, simply provide the reliable sources and quotations for verification. And stop making conclusions that are not backed by your sources. Kwesi Yema (talk) 21:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ K., A. H.; Roth, H. Ling (March 1904). "Great Benin: Its Customs, Art, and Horrors". The Geographical Journal. 23 (3): 374. doi:10.2307/1775003. ISSN 0016-7398.

Sockpuppet accounts

I suspect Greatesteverliveth and Hydranova to be the same person. Dolpina (talk) 18:45, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we are the same people. He is my siamese twin.
Now you see we won't allow you disseminated lies to disinform people, you have moved to personal attacks. Typical Yoruba. Greatesteverliveth (talk) 19:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Miyanky445 is another one. Also similar topics. Dolpina (talk) 19:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Admin please a little help here

@AntiDionysius@C.Fred please I kindly change this page back to Ada and Eben I have this page was vandalised by Yoruba people because there was tribal war on twitter please the original name of the page was Ada and Eben not Ada and Abere they changed it and put fake history and fake references that when you check the book there is no real proof I have updated the history and put all the references there please you can verify for yourself please help us take history back on track I even tried creating another page but it doesn’t work because because this page original name was Ada and Eben @Discospinster stop vandalising the page Osasnova (talk) 19:33, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Discospinter why are you doing this this is injustice Osasnova (talk) 19:38, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First off, you should be aware that Discospinter is an admin, and I am not. I think it would be helpful if you stopped accusing people of vandalising the page whenever they make edits you disagree with. Editors on Wikipedia are asked to assume everyone else is operating in good faith and trying to improve the project, even if we sometimes have conflicting views about how to improve the project.
The way Wikipedia works is through consensus. Admins are not going to come in and restore your preferred version of the page and ban everyone you don't like, no matter how many references you provide. Continuing to delete large sections of the page because you alone think they are wrong is not constructive. Editors work together. If there is disagreement, which there clearly is here, you talk through it, bring references, and try to find a solution that basically everyone agrees upon. Only if you are unable to do that after trying should you then ask for outside intervention to resolve the dispute. AntiDionysius (talk) 19:41, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Really then why don’t you click the link and see who is right Osasnova (talk) 19:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The contents of the link do nothing to change the fact that you need to work with other editors to obtain consensus, not make repeated large scale deletions and accuse others of vandalism. AntiDionysius (talk) 19:51, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, you can't copy and paste stuff from other websites for actual legal reasons, so please stop doing that. AntiDionysius (talk) 19:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The OP has been blocked as a sockpuppet, so this can be closed. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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