Talk:Abu Zubaydah

Archives (Index)

1 2

This page is archived by ClueBot III.

Convicted? Tortured

An IP contributor challenged whether Abu Zubaydah should be described as "wrongfully convicted".

I see another IP contributor challenging whether the article should describe Abu Zubaydah as having been tortured.

Of course Abu Zubaydah should not be described as "wrongfully convicted", or even "justly convicted". He has not been convicted. He has not even been charged.

I started an article on extrajudicial detention - which I think is a neutral term for his status. Several years later someone initiated a discussion on Talk:Administrative detention, under what struck me as the unsupportable claim that extrajudicial detention is identical to Administrative detention. There is an enormous distinction between extrajudicial detention and administrative detention. Countries that follow the rule of law, that practice some kind of administrative detention, have laws that lay out when and how individuals can be held in administrative detention. Border officers, for instance, who detain an individual who lacks a visa, prior to their deportation, are putting them in a kind of administrative detention.

Extrajudicial detention is where individuals decide "screw the law", we have the power to detain this guy, so we will do so, even though there is no law stating we have the authority to do so.

As to whether Abu Zubaydah was tortured, whether it violates NPOV to describe him as being tortured -- realistically, all the Guantanamo captives were tortured. They were all hung by their wrists, for days, with a hood over their head, and randomly beaten by every passing GI - to soften them up for interrogation. At least two men died of this mistreatment. John Yoo's infamous torture memo said nothing should be considered torture, unless it inflicted pain equivalent to that experienced during death, or organ failure. Well, since individuals died of the wrist suspension, beatings, it did inflict pain equivalent to that experienced while dying.

But, I don't support describing all the captives who experienced this treatment as having been tortured, because not enough RS state they were tortured.

A small subset of the Guantanamo captives, mainly, but not entirely, those who were held in the CIA's archipelago of black sites were tortured, and this is well documented. The Senate Intelligence Committee spelled out that they were tortured. Abu Zubaydah's torture is one of the most well documented. The CIA recorded copious video recording of his torture.

So let's have no cowardly IP contributors claim he should not be described as having been tortured. Geo Swan (talk) 01:57, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Onel5969, Htonl, and Gidonb:

Hi Geo Swan, I have never heard of this person, edited this article, or edited its talk page. I'm sure you guys can figure something out without me! gidonb (talk) 02:19, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

• Gidonb I pinged you because you supported the redirection of extrajudicial detention to Administrative detention. I addressed the problem with this redirection, above. There are over 500 articles that linked to [[extrajudicial detention - under the assumption that readers who clicked on those links would go to an article that described extrajudicial detention. Only, for years, those links were sending them to the wrong place. That could have misled tens of thousands of readers. You endorsed that.

• I think the redirection should be reversed, because extrajudicial detention and Administrative detention are very very different. Geo Swan (talk) 03:04, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

1. Todd E. Pettys (2007). "State Habeas Relief for Federal Extrajudicial Detainees". Minnesota Law Review. Retrieved 2020-10-18. The President's aggressive prosecution of that campaign has led to the incarceration of hundreds of individuals, many of whom have not been formally charged with any crime and face seemingly indefinite extrajudicial detention—detention without the review, approval, or participation of any court.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
2. James I. Walsh; James A. Piazza (2010). "Why Respecting Physical Integrity Rights Reduces Terrorism". Comparative Political Studies. 43 (5). doi:10.1177/0010414009356176. Retrieved 2020-10-18. For example, our findings lend support to the contention that the American government's violation of physical integrity rights—in the form of extrajudicial detention, the use of "harsh interrogation techniques" by American personnel, and the rendering of suspected terrorists to countries that torture them—is counterproductive.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
3. Henry Frank Carey (August 2013). "The Domestic Politics of Protecting Human Rights in Counter-Terrorism: Poland's, Lithuania's, and Romania's Secret Detention Centers and Other East European Collaboration in Extraordinary Rendition". East European Politics and Societies and Cultures. 27 (3). doi:10.1177/0888325413480176. Retrieved 2020-10-18. In March 2011, Abu Zubaydah's sued Lithuania at the ECHR for his alleged extrajudicial detention, torture and ill-treatment at a secret prison in Lithuania, and other violations of the European Convention on Human Rights, including his extraordinary renditions to and from Lithuania prior to his eventual rendition to Guantánamo.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
4. Trevor W. Morrison (2007-11-01). "Suspension and the Extrajudicial Constitution". Cornell Law Faculty Publications. Retrieved 2020-10-18. This is evident from Justice Scalia's identification of the Due Process Clause as the principal constitutional barrier to extrajudicial detention of U.S. citizens.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)

Geo Swan, ok got it. It's a discussion that you restarted on another page. Why paste it all here? Try to keep things a bit together! gidonb (talk) 07:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

• So, should I interpret your comment above as showing willingness to have extraordinary rendition restored?
• FWIW, I wrote this comment first... then I decided since the original merge discussion was at Talk:Administrative detention, I really ought to be making my suggestion the redirection be reverted there. If I didn't raise the question there uninvolved third parties would be entitled to ask why I didn't raise it there. Geo Swan (talk) 08:08, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

• Sorry about the chronology. Yep, the reverse is much better! In such a case, just say the discussion here is closed, please discuss on the other page. To the point: You can revert, just explain. At the time, I agreed because of deep similarity (and not stated but I always take into account: little content) and not as identical (position of nominator). If you think differently, just explain at that talk page and you can continue to develop the article. Happy editing! gidonb (talk) 10:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Notable new article by Abu Zubaydah

This new article, written by Abu Zubaydah himself about his experiences, seems notable. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 18:54, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Heritage

Although born in Saudi Arabia, isn't Abu Zubaydah of Palestinian heritage? If so, why not mention this basic information in the text of this article, in an effort to be as encyclopedic as possible? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 23:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Confirmed by the New York Time here: Although born in Saudi Arabia, Abu Zubaydah is a Palestinian with no immediate country to receive him.. Kire1975 (talk) 23:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

John Kiriakou

John Kiriakou is a former CIA counterterrorism officer who was the only person sentenced in the CIA's enhanced interrogation program. Kiriakou was sentenced to 2 years prison for exposing the CIA's enhanced interrogation program.

Added the following: While in CIA custody, Zubaydah previously damaged left eye was surgically removed.

Ironcurtain2 (talk) 16:39, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

References