Talk:27 Club/Archive 9

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"Urban legend" in the lead paragraph

I restored "urban legend" in the opening sentence, replacing "idea". It's more descriptive and helpful to the reader for the lead to say what kind of phenomenon the 27 Club is. Being a cultural story that gets told and re-told, person to person and in the media, I looked through the various genres of folklore — and urban legend seemed like the best fit. One might call it a superstition, though that WP article seems to imply that a superstition believer acts differently in some sense; whereas urban legends are simply stories that get told and re-told, often with a cautionary angle. The 27 Club article references variously use curse, myth, legend, superstition, conspiracy, and coincidence (and surely others as well). Urban legend seems like a good neutral term, and perhaps the most accurate classification. Goffman82 23:17, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

I've restored again "urban legend". The description in the lead has changed a few times and was last "a list" over six months ago. On reflection, I'm generally in agreement with Goffman82, calling it "a list" is not a satisfactory description because it fails completely to convey anything about the concept. Fundamentally, there is no "list" that anyone can produce. The 27 Club is an idea that people talk about. So either calling it an urban legend or a notional club would seem much more appropriate. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:21, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

"Urban legend" is definitely starting to grow on me. The 27 Club is an urban legend, broadly defined, and that does better describe the phenomenon. I'm open to other ways of explaining what it is in the lead, and I might try my hand at improving it myself, but I think it's pretty good the way it is now. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

The reason I would say it's not an urban legend is because of the decription of urban legend on Wikipedia:

"An urban legend or contemporary legend is a genre of folklore comprising stories circulated as true, especially as having happened to a "friend of a friend" or family member, often with horrifying or humorous elements. These legends can be entertaining but often concern mysterious peril or troubling events, such as disappearances and strange objects. They may also be confirmation of moral standards, or reflect prejudices, or be a way to make sense of societal anxieties."

I don't see how the idea of the 27 Club conforms to that. There's no real "story that's circulated as true" nor any of the other ingredients mentioned (except in the most mundane way). It's just a list. Idea or notion seems a perfectly adequate fit to me. Rubsley (talk) 13:19, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

The first reason to call it an urban legend/myth is because the article's sources label the Club with those kinds of folkloric terms — myth, legend, curse, superstition, etc. Second, it's more helpful to the reader when we provide a specific term for what kind of 'idea' or 'notion' it is, especially in the lead sentence. If there's established terminology for a cultural phenomenon, we should use it. Third, as I said above, urban legend seems like an accurate, specific, and neutral term among the relevant choices. Here, the 'story that's circulated as true' is that there's something especially perilous, and possibly spooky/supernatural ('cursed'), about the age of 27, particularly among musicians/celebrities with risky lifestyles. Urban legends often "serve as cautionary tales," and this article's sources tend to talk about 27 Club 'members' like that — while also glorifying them, of course. Goffman82 23:37, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I hear ya, and none of that sounds unreasonable. I would still challenge it on two fronts though: 1. as an innocent visitor to the page I found it quite jarring when I first read it. I know what urban legends are and I know what the 27 Club is - or at least thought I did; the definition seems to have changed quite a lot over the past 10 years or so - and the terms really don't seem to fit together (I'm not alone in this).

Number 2, if an urban legend is a "story", a story has several aspects that differentiate it from an idea or notion. A beginning, middle and an end would be one of those things. A story is much more than an idea. And this is just an idea as far as I can tell. Rubsley (talk) 02:42, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I have restored the long-term wording describing it as a "list", pending any other consensus and reliable sourcing. There are no cited sources in the article describing it as an urban legend, and that isn't what it is. The club is simply about the notable members who are in it, and the fact that those names are repeatedly cited in the media as part of the "27 club". Per above, that isn't an urban legend it's simply a phenomenon.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:42, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

For reference: 'Myth' appears to be the most popular term among sources.

• Despite the huge myth, musicians don't die at 27
• The Myth of the 27 Club
• The 27 Club is a myth
• 27: The Legend and Mythology of the 27 Club
• Debunking the central myths of the '27 Club'

'Pop culture myth' in the lead might be closest to the sources, though it would be difficult to argue against linking that phrase to 'urban myth' (which redirects to urban legend on Wp.)

If you'll read further into the urban legend article, you'll see that 'stories' in the context of folklore is much broader than stereotypical 'once upon a time' tales. They include simple fact claims. Just look at the last paragraph of Urban legend#Documentation for a few examples, including 'rock singer Courtney Love is the granddaughter of Marlon Brando.' Or in the next section, 'eating watermelon seeds will result in a watermelon growing in the stomach.' These aren't 'stories' in the usual sense, in terms of plot structure; they are stories in the folklore sense because they are transmitted orally (or via modern media). Goffman82 00:42, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

"Pop culture myth" might be good, in my view. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:16, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Not bad, but "myth" suggests that it is actually suggested, or believed by some, that there is an actual "club". I don't think anyone ever suggested or believes that it is an actual thing. It's more of a concept. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 09:28, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

There is a clear absence of consensus in this discussion for calling it a myth or legend. Most sources cited by the article itself do not characterise it as such, and just dwell on the club itself and its famous members, only a small handful try to claim it's something more than that. Unless consensus here changes, it should retain the longterm phrasing that it was a list, with the second paragraph also giving more info on any suggestion that there might be a "spike".  — Amakuru (talk) 12:26, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

It was my hope to resolve this by moving the discussion from one based on editors' personal definitions/connotations of the term 'urban myth' to one based on sources. I added 5 reliable sources to the lead sentence that characterize the 27 Club as a "myth" that has been debunked/refuted by statistical studies. The National Review and Far Out Magazine articles, in particular, go into depth on the reasons for its persistence, despite refutation, as urban folklore circulating in popular culture. Amakuru has reverted the wording back to "list" but kept the sources. Would other editors please weigh in? Goffman82 19:12, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I think the difficulty here is that we are talking about two different things that are fiction in different ways;

• Musicians are prone to dying at age 27 = A myth that some might believe, statistics show it not to be true
• There is a "club" that has as members those who have died at age 27 = A concept. There is no club, no membership, and no "list".

What we need is a lead sentence that covers both and makes it clear which is which. Something like;

"The 27 Club is a conceptual club that has as members musicians and famous people who have died at the age of 27, based on the myth that this is a common age for such people to die."

We need to remember that this article is about a Club. It is not 27 List, or 27 Myth, it is about a "club" that ties these ideas together in one concept.

--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 08:52, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• @Escape Orbit: I think you make some very good points above, and I quite like your suggested alternative lead. This clearly defines what the club is, while also highlighting the potential myth status as well, without focusing solely on that.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:40, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

I think your breakdown into two items is really helpful. I'd actually unpack it further, into four parts. The 27 Club relates to all of these elements. I think the question at issue is: which is the primary subject of this Wikipedia article?

1. A pop cultural belief, refuted by research: musicians/celebrities are especially prone to dying at age 27, with some statistically notable frequency
2. A list: celebrities who died at age 27
3. A colloquialism: pop culture refers to the list using the metaphor of a "club", whose "members" "joined" by dying at 27
4. A cultural phenomenon: how dying at 27 came to be, and remains, a perennial subject of pop culture, music industry lore, celebrity journalism, statistical research, etc.

I think #4 is the primary subject of this article. Do others agree or disagree?

My sense is that other editors may believe I'm arguing that #1 is the primary subject, which is not the case. I'm hoping we can establish some common ground here. Goffman82 04:56, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Broadly agree, although 4 must of course first explain what the others are, probably starting at 3, followed by 1.

I would exclude 2 and modify 4. Drop all mention of "a list". It's a red-herring that leads in the wrong direction. Pop culture does not refer to "a list," it primarily refers to joining the membership of a club. The "Club" may well, conceptually, have a membership list, but there is nothing about that list that is not explained in full by membership. It is a superfluous detail that only misleads because there is no list. No-one keeps a list of who has, or has not, already joined. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:11, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

I believe that 1. should be the subject of this article. It could be useful as an example of selection bias, which is common in the belief of many myths. 62.141.176.1 (talk) 13:51, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I've updated the Cultural phenomenon section to distinguish between the 4 different aspects of the "27 Club" discussed above: the pop cultural phenomenon, the colloquial name, the refuted statistical belief, and the associated celebrities.

I think the updated version helps to make clear that the pop cultural phenomenon is the primary subject of this encyclopedia article, and "the list" of celebrities associated with it is secondary.

For the article lead, how about this edit of Escape Orbit's suggestion above:

"The 27 Club is the pop cultural phenomenon of documenting the deaths of popular musicians, artists, and other celebrities who died at age 27, based on the myth that this is a common age for such people to die." — Goffman82 23:20, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Any objections to the main substance of this proposed edit to the lead?

The 27 Club is the pop cultural phenomenon of documenting popular musicians and other celebrities who died at age 27, based on the urban myth that 27 is an unusually common age for such people to die. Although the claim of a "statistical spike" for celebrity deaths at age 27 has been refuted by scientific research, dying at 27 remains a perennial subject of popular culture, celebrity journalism, and entertainment industry lore. Because the club is entirely notional, there is no official membership.

It's my best attempt at synthesizing a consensus by encompassing all the aspects of the Club editors have said are relevant to the article. If you have merely wordsmithing type suggestions but no objections to the substance, you can make those through follow-up edits.

— Goffman82 (talk) 03:11, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't like the inclusion of "documenting". There is no documenting, other than a couple of websites that cannot claim to be in any way official or central. 'Documenting' again suggests that somewhere a membership list exists, which is the only thing that makes it necessary to later explain that there is no official membership, which would otherwise be obvious. The paragraph also side-steps the central idea of people joining the club, which is the consistent term used in all sources. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 09:21, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Greatest number of Musicians die at age 56

According to the article, age 56 is when popular musicians are most likely to die. This is also the age at which Ludwig van Beethoven died. Josh-Levin@ieee.org (talk) 20:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Justin MENTELL

Justin Mentell is not on the list…. An actor (Boston Legal) who was killed in a car crash when he was 27. 2601:589:4E81:9C10:B815:890F:DECC:3164 (talk) 20:09, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Source? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:28, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2023

Addition to the section about pop-culture references.

(2016) Uno by Rex Orange County — references the 27s club with the lyric “and every now and then I think about the fact I’d become a legend if I died at 27.

Source: Spotify lyrics, from Musixmatch Jacksonmatz (talk) 02:57, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: This must be covered in secondary sources. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:18, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Pigpen was the drummer of The GD

Pigpen was not a keyboardist 2600:1005:B013:1557:C8D0:EF9C:5EFD:3AB6 (talk) 21:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

He was a keyboardist, not drummer. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:09, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Iuri Lapicus

https://www.zazoom.it/2023-03-20/incidente-in-moto-morto-a-27-anni-iuri-lapicus-stella-italiana-delle-mma/12591562/ Iuri Lapicus was an Italian MMA martial artist, who died aged 27 due to a traffic collision 2.44.107.155 (talk) 18:51, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

The concept of the "27 Club" is not mentioned in the source. Binksternet (talk) 19:22, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Suggestion: Bokito died at 27

The famous silverback gorilla Bokito, who rose to fame after jumping over the water-filled ditch and the wall around his enclosure violently attacking a woman, who later claimed he was making love to her. She was part of his harem. After lovingly dragging her around for tens of metres he visited a nearby restaurant where he was shot by a tranquilizer gun.

Born on 14 March 1996 he died 4 April 2023 at 27 years old. I suggest to add him to the list of members of the 27 club. Victorvroeg (talk) 10:24, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

The definition of this article makes no mention of gorillas, and you'd need a source that suggests membership. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:24, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

The definition mentions ‘other celebrities’. Bokito is the nr 1 silver back on the planet.

as mentioned in the article there is no official membership so we can’t provide proof.

he died two days ago. Sources: https://bnonews.com/index.php/2023/04/gorilla-famous-for-2007-escape-dies-suddenly-at-dutch-zoo/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/may/18/peterwalker

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/19/world/europe/19briefs-gorilla.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare Victorvroeg (talk) 12:15, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Here are some (Dutch) sources that suggest membership:

Volkskrant

a tweet

Fun fact: he died on the same day as Kurt Cobain. Victorvroeg (talk) 14:37, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the tweet is good enough. But I'd wait until others comment, and maybe have more sources. Extending the 'club' into the animal kingdom is quite a step and one website about one gorilla may not be convincing. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:04, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I say NO. This is not a list of every . . ... sentient being who died at age 27. Carptrash (talk) 19:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2023

I am requesting Nick Drake be added to the list of identified members of the 27 club. He died shy of his 27th birthday and is an influence singer songwriter of our time.

His wiki for reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Drake Josheisenfeld (talk) 05:44, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Per the notice at the top of this page: This is not an article listing every famous person who died at age 27. It is only about those who have been described as belonging to the "27 Club", which must be named explicitly in a cited source. If the term "27 Club" doesn't appear in the cited source, the person's name doesn't belong here. If you can supply a source naming this term, please do reopen this request. Jamietw (talk) 08:44, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Julian Figueroa

He died on April 9th, 2023. He supposedly died of a heart attack but he also mentioned dying to see his dad. He had occult images on his body in the middle of his chest. Thestudiolite (talk) 15:22, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

He doesn't seem to have been sufficiently notable to have an article in eswiki; es:Mi camino es amarte lists him in the cast, but no article. His father is quite famous; son not so much. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:30, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh yeah, i see now they have to be really famous to be on this list. Maybe he was just a sacrifice then!.. Thestudiolite (talk) 15:37, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I vote to put him in there are three guys on here hilighted in red with no article. The world was shocked Julian died. Thanks. 47.205.254.217 (talk) 10:10, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Each of those includes a link to their articles on another language Wikipedia, Russian and Korean. There are also a fair number of unlinked names, people who were in notable bands and were mentioned along with the words "27 Club". Has Mr. Figueroa gotten news coverage linking him to 27 Club? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 14:59, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

I thought you had to die at 27 do you really need to mention the 27th club Valentine Elzalde is in there he is also a Mexican performer. 47.205.254.217 (talk) 18:21, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Read the note at the top of this page. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 18:52, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Got you but yes I would vote for Julian if there's a chance he gets in. Nobility is not inherited. News is still fresh so the 27th club will take time. 47.205.254.217 (talk) 19:17, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Julian has joined the 27th club the televsion show El Gordo y La Flaca aired the segment and I came to let you know he's in. 47.205.254.217 (talk) 20:10, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

His brother trigo is in too but nobility plays a factor. 47.205.254.217 (talk) 20:17, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2023

41.58.236.65 (talk) 08:03, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

we need to add "Costa Titch" to the list

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. see talk page header or response above Cannolis (talk) 08:26, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I just removed Aaron Hernandez

because nothing in the reference given mentions the 27 Club. Carptrash (talk) 23:25, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
|- | Aaron Hernandez | style=white-space:nowrap|November 6, 1989 | style=white-space:nowrap|April 19, 2017 | Suicide | Former NFL football player and convicted murderer | style=white-space:nowrap|27 years, 164 days | Carptrash (talk) 23:25, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Here is a link that includes him as a member:

https://www.starsinsider.com/celebrity/432940/27-famous-members-of-the-27-club 2601:446:480:8A00:217A:A348:CB3:DDF1 (talk) 22:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

References

PLEASE Sahara Davenport!

I have been trying to get Sahara Davenport put BACK on this list for a LONG time. She used to be on the list and for no reason she was removed.

below are THREE articles that mention her as a member of the 27 Club. The first source also includes Reggie Lewis, Harry Hains, Aaron Hernandez and Andres Escobar as members that are not on this Wiki list.

https://www.starsinsider.com/celebrity/432940/27-famous-members-of-the-27-club

https://www.scotsman.com/whats-on/arts-and-entertainment/what-is-the-27-club-celebrity-members-of-the-cult-phenomenon-from-kurt-cobain-to-janis-joplin-and-amy-winehouse-2922426

https://medium.com/our-weird-wonderful-world/the-27-club-912eea81e531 2601:446:480:8A00:217A:A348:CB3:DDF1 (talk) 22:48, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Done. - Alan. AlH42 (talk) 20:22, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2023

Suggest adding Alan Wilson of canned heat who also died at 27 in 1970. 2600:1004:B020:D2D2:C5B3:DDB2:45DF:3692 (talk) 23:37, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Looks OK to me. Let's see what others' say. - FlightTime (open channel) 23:45, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

He's in there already, listed as "Alan "Blind Owl" Wilson", date of death September 3, 1970. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:07, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Popular culture references: Shiori Experience

I can't edit the article, but I feel the manga Shiori Experience deserves a mention, since the 27 Club is the central theme of its plot. 188.146.108.43 (talk) 15:05, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

If it's not important enough to be mentioned in that article, why should it be mentioned here? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

The article for the manga is woefully underdeveloped, but that's a separate matter. 88.199.147.88 (talk) 16:08, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

So do it there first. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 16:44, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

So I did. 88.199.147.88 (talk) 21:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Good! Now, figure out some appropriate language and try it out here on the talk page. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 21:48, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

"A central plot device in the manga Shiori Experience by Yuko Osada is a demonic ritual by which a person can make a contract with the spirit of a musician from the 27 Club. In exchange, they must become a legend of similar caliber by their 28th birthday to avoid death. The series' protagonist, Shiori Honda, becomes haunted by the spirit of Jimi Hendrix on her 27th birthday after her older brother attempts the ritual on himself. The series also features characters haunted by other members of the club, including Kurt Cobain and Janis Joplin." 88.199.147.88 (talk) 22:02, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Added. — Goffman82 (talk) 17:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Proposed revision to article lead & merger with first section

27 Club is an idiom and pop cultural phenomenon that attributes special significance to popular musicians, artists, actors, and celebrities who die at age 27.

Beginning with the deaths of several 27-year-old popular musicians between 1969 and 1971, dying at the age of 27 came to be, and remains, a perennial subject of popular culture, celebrity tabloid journalism, and entertainment industry lore. This phenomenon gave rise to the urban myth that celebrity deaths are statistically more common at this age, a claim that has been refuted by scientific research. References to a figurative "27 Club" began to appear in the mid-1990s, to refer collectively to celebrities who died at age 27, especially those noted for their high-risk lifestyles or deaths resulting from drug and alcohol abuse, homicide, suicide, or transportation-related accidents. — Goffman82 (talk) 19:49, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello. Thanks for working on enhancing the beginning of the article, and for discussing it here. In my opinion your suggested text is in some ways an improvement, but in other ways not. To begin at the beginning, I wouldn't say that the 27 Club is an idiom. It's more of an informal list, as the article says now. This initial part of the article has been changed a lot over the years, as different editors have tried different ways of explaining what the 27 Club is. Also, the 27 Club doesn't attribute special significance to the members themselves -- though that's what the current version of the article says too -- it's more like it attributes significance to the fact that they died at age 27. Anyway, if I get really ambitious I might take a shot at my own rewrite, here on the talk page. Or perhaps I could put more effort into suggesting changes to your attempt above. But again, thanks for starting this discussion. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:34, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Joseph Merrick The Elephant Man

Someone add Joseph Merrick to this list. The "Elephant Man" certainly lived a life worst than what we hear about celebrities today. 24.141.138.91 (talk) 16:57, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

This is not a list of everyone who died at age 27. It is about the post-1960s cultural phenomenon that gives prominence to celebrity deaths at that age. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2023

Barry Brown should be included in this list. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Barry_Brown_(actor) He died on April 27, 1978 at 27 years if age. Claire Huttlinger (talk) 10:04, 24 September 2023 (EST) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ClaireHuttlinger (talk • contribs) I want to include a popular Nigerian afrobeats musician Mohbad to the list of Club 27. He died last week at the age of 27 and his death has sparked widespread unrest amongst Nigerians within and outside the country. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/MohBad Nene Obichie (talk) 13:36, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Include Mohbad Ilerioluwa Oladimeji Aloba (8 June 1996 – 12 September 2023) to the list Nene Obichie (talk) 13:38, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: see Talk Page heading Hyphenation Expert (talk) 19:33, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2023

Ilerioluwa Oladimeji Aloba (Mohbad) from Nigeria

8 June 1996 - 12 September 2023. 105.113.16.211 (talk) 11:59, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done, here. (Per the cited ref, "Daily Post observed that Mohbad, born on June 8, 1996 – died at the age of 27, joining the infamous 27 Club – an informal list consisting mostly of popular musicians, artists, actors, and other celebrities who died at age 27." Whoever wrote that seems to have looked at the Wikipedia 27 Club article, but they are listing Ilerioluwa Oladimeji Aloba, known as MohBad, as a member on their own.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 14:18, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Other people

Can we also include terrorists, religious figures, and political activists in the list? Aminabzz (talk) 16:35, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

The first question is ALWAYS whether the person was reported as joining the "27 Club", as published by WP:Reliable sources. It's not enough that they died at age 27. The "27 Club" must be explicitly mentioned. Binksternet (talk) 20:22, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2023

Add Fernando Martin to this list he was a NBA player died in a traffic collision at 27. 2600:1702:1780:CC70:10AC:4788:ED0C:6C8D (talk) 12:47, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done. Published sources do not connect him to the 27 Club. Binksternet (talk) 15:04, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 January 2024

Tomas Lowe (member of UK band Viola Beach) died in a car crash in 2016 aged 27 and has been mentioned as a ‘27 club member’ in various locations. https://www.forever27.co.uk/hall-of-fame.html (This site also lists others missing in the list here) 2A00:801:78E:8B64:282C:FBB0:4748:8169 (talk) 21:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done. I found a higher quality source at BBC News. Binksternet (talk) 22:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 January 2024

I would like to suggest Paul Hunter is added to this list. Thank you. 92.3.252.49 (talk) 20:31, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 20:41, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2024

Adding another member to the 27 Club bracket, specifically Pete ham - lead vocalist and guitarist of the band "Bad Finger". He died at 27 on the 24th of April, 1975, just 3 days shy of his 28th birthday. I just think because they're at least a prominent band, be should be here. Zombillions (talk) 18:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:42, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Actually, Pete Ham is already listed in the table of identified members. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:45, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Spelling should matter in an encyclopedia

Further to my belief that the tone of an encyclopedia should not be that of people sitting around a fire, drinking, and mulling over ideas and recollections, I believe that in the text QUOTE: Daughtry's song "Long Live Rock & Roll" from their 2013 album Baptized references the club with the lyrics "they're forever 27 – Jimmy, Janis, Brian Jones" UNQUOTE (which exists in this article at the date and time I'm typing this talk-page comment) should have the phrase 'Jimmy, Janis' changed to 'Jimi, Janis' if there's no basis for the opinion that the official lyrics really are 'Jimmy' there, and should be changed to 'Jimmy" [sic] ", Janis' if there IS a basis for asserting that the lyrics, despite 'Jimi' being correct, are officially 'Jimmy'.2600:1700:6759:B000:E894:BFCC:705D:880 (talk) 05:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Christopher Lawrence Simpson

@2600:1700:6759:B000:E894:BFCC:705D:880 Good point. The source used was from a unreliable source (user generated content), so the spelling was entirely unofficial and would appear incorrect. I've fixed it. It still needs a source cited though. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 06:29, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Total Days

Because we reach 10,000 days in our lives at 27 years and 138 days (depending on leap years) I think it would be an interesting column to add. For example: Walkie made it to 9,991 and Kami made it to 10,002 and Dickie Pride made 10,018… I don’t know how to calculate that or how to add a column to achieve that. Torturella (talk) 19:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Not unless WP:Reliable sources discuss it that way. Binksternet (talk) 19:55, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2024

Anton Yelchin (actor) - 1989 - 2016 should be included on this list. 2A04:4A43:4B8F:C54A:0:0:DE6:2162 (talk) 06:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

He already is.--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 09:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Tone and fan-like tags

The reason I added the tags which were reverted is that the tone of this article is not encyclopaedic. For one thing there is numerous repetition of the term cultural phenomenon, it is even used as a section title but is not a suitable term for a serious article. The Identified Members section has a peculiar unserious tone such as "Because the 27 Club is entirely notional, there is no official membership." Overall this article promotes an urban myth that has been disproved by scientific research and therefore I'm tempted to nominate it for AfD based on WP:NOT despite it passing WP:GNG, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 20:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Atlantic306: Gee, I dunno. It seems pretty encyclopedic to me. And it describes an urban myth, it doesn't promote it. The Scientific Studies section explicitly refutes the idea that rock musicians and others are more likely to die at age 27, a refutation also mentioned in the lead section. And the statement about there not being an official membership is also sober-minded -- since the 27 Club is a "notion", the membership list in the article is based on third-party references. If the phrase "cultural phenomenon" is overused, feel free to improve the prose, or suggest how it might be improved. As for WP:NOT, I don't see how that would apply to the article. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I won't bother with the AfD but I think it needs a rewrite imv Atlantic306 (talk) 22:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Atlantic306 What would you suggest instead of "cultural phenomenon"? If seems an accurate description to me, I also don't see what's unserious about the sentence. The very fact you're suggesting AfD makes me concerned that you've a misplaced idea about the purpose of Wikipedia. Just because something is a disproven myth does not mean it should not be in an encyclopedia. Notability is the criteria for inclusion.

The article is far from perfect, and does have issues (particularly list cruft), but I don't see anything particularly fan-like about it. Do you have any particular examples of anything being written from the POV of a fan? And a fan of who/what? Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 06:25, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Notability is not the only reason for inclusion otherwise we would just copy newspapers, which to some extent is happening here, see WP:NOT which lists many reasons for exclusion including Not Newspapers. I disagree with you about the tone of the article, the constant use of cultural phenomenon is promotional wording. Also the reason I came to this page is because it was being linked to the age of death of Chance Perdomo who has recently died which myself and other editors consider inappropriate. Also the references used to justify his entry are weak - a sensationalist story from a sports tabloid, and TV Insider, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 13:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Atlantic306 Are you sure you understand what phenomenon means? Also what occurs on the Chance Perdomo article is not the responsibility of this article.

The source used to this may be weak, and I have argued a number of times that creation of a list of "members" is not the purpose of this article. It should limit itself itself to pertinent and prominent examples only to illustrate the meaning of "the club". But this has been discussed a number of times here already, and we always end up with a list that grows over time. But that list is at least factual, not promotional. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 20:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

From your link: "In popular usage, a phenomenon often refers to an extraordinary event. The term is most commonly used to refer to occurrences that at first defy explanation or baffle the observer." Considering the debunking of this myth by science it no longer should be considered extraordinary so a description of urban myth rather than cultural phenomenon would be more appropriate in my view, Atlantic306 (talk) 21:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The cultural phenomenon is not that rock musicians (and other figures of popular culture) are more likely to die at age 27, or that a lot of rock musicians have died at age 27. The cultural phenomenon is that people often talk and write about the people who died at age 27, and refer to them as the 27 Club. And that sometimes they erroneously think that something strange is going on. With that being said, it is an urban myth -- or urban legend, perhaps? -- and the article does already say that. Still, it should be possible to improve some of the wording of the article. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Atlantic306 So you don't understand its use here. From the lead of that article: "A phenomenon , sometimes spelled phaenomenon, is an observable event". In this case, in western culture of recent times. I also note that the bit you're quoting is not supported by the source it quotes, which says nothing about cultural phenomena defying explanation or being baffling. The Cambridge Dictionary has real life examples here, this includes describing schools and the invention of pottery as cultural phenomena. There's nothing baffling about them.

It's not a perfect description, but you are mistaken in thinking it is promotional or suggesting it's unexplained. As far as "urban myth" goes, may want to read previous discussion on this. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 00:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

People Who Should Be Added

These are Celebs who died at 27 who should be added, given the peramiters of the page: Aaron Hernandez Thuy Trang Pat Tillman Harry Hains 2600:1702:1931:2420:5CB4:E43F:BA17:2B5E (talk) 02:26, 29 July 2023 (UTC) Ryuchell (Japanese social media personality/model/LGBT rights activist): Died of Suicide at 27 on 6/12/23 following a messy public divorce and scrutiny/harassment after publicly announcing his gender identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.68.2.124 (talk) 19:27, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Mac Miller 69.130.1.204 (talk) 04:28, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes. Please, someone add this, please. I cannot update the graph properly!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Johnson 2001:5B0:235C:3F38:3903:6212:CE9C:BA38 (talk) 21:17, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Robert Johnson 86.1.0.214 (talk) 15:08, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

– Muboshgu (talk) 15:16, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@86.1.0.214 He's fourth on the list. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 22:18, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps King Alexander of Greece? I know his a king and not a creative celebrity but there is another king on this list, Ghazi of Iraq 2A02:C7C:7B32:1B00:4844:CF83:9C99:572C (talk) 08:58, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Can someone please add Li Tobler? She was an artist and the partner or HR Giger when they were young. She committed suicide at 27 2601:400:C380:280:499E:998C:7166:1F38 (talk) 19:29, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

The only source connecting Tobler to the 27 Club are a medium.com blog article we can't use because of WP:MEDIUM, and a comedy podcast called Y'All Heard which admits that she is not well known. Not reliable enough to list here. Binksternet (talk) 21:57, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Can you add Jacob Miller, lead singer of the reggae band Inner Circle? He has a page here at Wikipedia and died in a car accident when 27 years and 324 days old in 1980.

Can Paola Luz be added? She was a Filipina rock singer and photographer. She died due to adrenal gland tumor on August 28, 1991 which is 27 years and 168 days. https://www.philstar.com/lifestyle/sunday-life/2016/08/21/1615566/paolas-story — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghostpurple (talk • contribs) 03:16, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Interpretations of Cobain's mother's quote

@Michael0986 I'm undoing your reversion with explanation here for discussion. My edit is intended to improve the WP:NPOV of the paragraph, which is about the different interpretations of Cobain's mother's quote. The earlier version wasn't explicit that there are competing interpretations of her quote. I gave it a topic sentence so it's clear what the paragraph is about, and re-ordered the content for clarity but did not add or remove content. My newest edit tweaks some words for more NPOV. Feel free to refine further if you see issues, or discuss here. Thanks. — Goffman82 (talk) 22:35, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I thought the earlier version was quite clear actually, and the order of interpretations more appropriate; the association with rock stars is more commonly accepted as her meaning. "On the other hand" is more appropriate for Segalstad's interpretation, which is not as widely accepted. Michael0986 (talk) 01:11, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

If I understand your concern, it sounds to be more about style than content. I moved Segalstad's interpretation to the beginning of the paragraph precisely because it offers a response to Cross's common interpretation established in the preceding paragraph. I'll make another edit that I think is a compromise. — Goffman82 (talk) 07:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Addition to the Music section

There is a song by the band Letlive called "27 club" from the album "The Blackest Beautiful" that also makes references to the club, and also makes a reference to Kurt Kobain's suicide letter.

The song was released with the album on July 9th, 2013, and also deals with Jason being misidentified by people all the time; whether it's a Christian, or a drug addict (according to an interview with Rocksound that can no longer be found, but is referenced on Wikipedia and Genius). HayDumGee (talk) 20:06, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I think this article is a mess and I don't like it

I'm really not a big fan of this article and how it's set up and what people's criteria for the 27 club is. The problem is, it's all up to people's interpretation what makes them part of the 27 club and I think that's a terrible bar to set for eager Wikipedia editors that just wanna validate their favorite artist, band, musician, whatever.

You've got artists on the list now that don't even have wikipedia pages. Four of them. That would be "Murda Killa," "Yoo-ju-eun," "Yung Trappa," and "Julian Figeroa." I'm terribly sorry that those people died so young and I'm sure they had their fanbases, but clearly they aren't even notable enough to have a wikipedia page or even a verifiable source confirming that they even died to begin with.

Also, the criteria for what makes someone part of the 27 Club is to me just backwards. You've got the king of Iraq (Ghazi of Iraq), a person who only even mattered to anyone because of nepotism and political hegemony and was by all means a tyrant (I've never heard a positive "spin" put on this guy by anyone, not even Iraqis). Then you've got on here a guy who was an "artist" named Dash Snow that, according to his article, made "collages with his own semen."

Do the right thing guys. Absolutely annihilate this article and only leave like, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Amy Winehouse, etc...Household names, not literal jagoffs that make collages with their own semen and get called an artist somehow. Emandudeguyperson (talk) 22:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm with you on the fact that the list that is infesting onto this article needs removed, however there needs to be a clear criteria of who is worth mentioning on the article as example members. And any one editor's estimation of their worth isn't going to be an acceptable criteria. This is why the criteria has always been, imperfect although it is, of a mention of both person and club in a reliable source. Both your examples there have Wikipedia articles, and sources. What anyone thinks of their lives about to the age 27 isn't relevant. And the others you mention have Wikipedia pages in other languages, and sources. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 10:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

So you would basically say, as long as the person is noteworthy enough to have a wikipedia article, that they should be added to the list if they're dead at 27? Emandudeguyperson (talk) 10:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

No, I'm saying a better, far more restrictive, criteria is needed that isn't based on who deserves to be mentioned in the opinion of editors. But we have always been unable to reach agreement on a better criteria than appearance in reliable sources. If you look through the talk page archives you'll see this discussion has been gone though multiple times before, including those suggesting they personally know who deserves a mention, and who doesn't. (There was even for a while a ridiculous two-tier membership, entirely based on who editors thought deserved to have some kind of VIP membership.) If you have a better criteria, very happy to hear it.--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I understand what you mean. But back to what I said in my original post, regarding only allowing household names on the article, that's basically the criteria I would set up. Like a ton of people are aware of Jean Michel Basquiat, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, and I could even give a pass on some of the less well known musicians maybe. I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel like it should be exclusively viewed as a club of artists. I don't think it's a good idea to start adding political figures... I could go down the list right now of some of the names on here... "businessman," "military," "king of iraq," I think all of those should literally be deleted. And even some of the more obscure artists, musicians, etc. should be deleted as well. I meant what I said originally which is basically that unless that they are internationally, damn near universally recognized, then we should probably keep them off the list. But I also respect that you want to use the criterion of the sources linked to their deaths actually naming them as part of the "27 club" as well, which seems fair. I dunno, for me, like I said, I think a lot of the names on the list right now are just a big "WTF?" and why are they on there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emandudeguyperson (talk • contribs) 11:16, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Here's my take on this: The cultural phenomenon known as the 27 Club is the idea that a lot of popular musicians died at the age of 27 -- and, as part of this concept, any popular musician who died at that age is a member of the 27 Club. (By "popular musician", I don't mean that the musician was popular, I mean that they worked in a genre of popular music such as rock, blues, jazz, and so on.) Therefore, the table of "identified members" should include any musical artist who died at age 27 -- even if we don't have a reference saying that they're a member. But to not accumulate an excessive and unmanaged list, the table should only include musicians who have their own Wikipedia article, or who were a member of a band that has its own Wikipedia article. (As Escape Orbit said, these ideas have been discussed before, and a similar, previous suggestion by me was not met with universal acceptance. But now is a good time to bring this up again, I think.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:57, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I have boldly removed the table entries for people who were not musicians, here. Although we have not yet established a consensus that that's the way to go, I thought it would be helpful to look at the updated list, which in my opinion is a significant improvement. (I have retained entries for musicians who have an article in a non-English Wikipedia.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 12:28, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Your action goes against Wikipedia content guidelines. We are not here to decide what the rules are for the cultural phenomenon called 27 Club. Instead, the media decide—WP:Reliable sources. We are not allowed to decide that it's only musicians, and we don't decide that every musician dead at 27 is in the club, regardless of sources. You can't remake Wikipedia to satisfy your preference. Binksternet (talk) 13:19, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

@Mudwater I understand your thinking, but unfortunately reliable sources have extended the original definition to include other famous people as club members. The article needs to reflect that, no matter how appropriate you feel it to be. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:05, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

@Escape Orbit: The 27 Club originally was for rock musicians. That's supported by reference like this. And there are other references that support the concept that any rock musician who died at age 27 is a member of the Club. With that being said, if there are other references that show that the concept has been expanded to include non-musicians, then I suppose we're stuck including them also. It's too bad though. Being in the 27 Club used to mean that you were a glamorous but wild rock star, often one who died of a drug overdose, or by murder or suicide, or in a car crash or by other misadventure. Now they'll let just anyone in -- soccer players, businessmen, and even the King of Iraq. It wouldn't have passed muster, back in my day. *Shakes head sadly* Okay, now I'm kind of kidding. But, yes, generally speaking we should of course base the article on reliable references. With that being said, there's still some room for deciding how best to do that. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:27, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I also discourage anyone to go against wikipedia policies. Please don't edit the article to fit your own standards, etc. That's why I wanted to come here and talk about it first and foremost. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emandudeguyperson (talk • contribs) 20:21, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussions on this topic over the years show a clear consensus that the current inclusion criteria for the Identified Members list are unsatisfactory. The article's subject is the cultural phenomenon of the 27 Club — and yet the overwhelming majority of editor time and discussion is devoted to maintaining and policing The List, which has grown to take up double the vertical space of the article's prose. This is a list article in all but name. The lead even makes that explicit.

Here are 4 different ways the current list is listcruft (quoting from that essay):

1. The list is a violation of Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.
2. The list is unlimited and/or unmaintainable.
3. The list's membership is volatile and requires a disproportionate amount of effort to keep up to date.
4. The list attracts the addition of little that is of clear importance or even relevance in the context of the topic.

The problem is that we haven't established consensus on an alternative set of criteria. I think that's mainly because it's the same few editors repeating the same points and there haven't been enough participants to build momentum for an alternative.

I agree with @Escape Orbit, @Mudwater, @Emandudeguyperson that a better, more restrictive inclusion criterion is needed than mere mention in reliable sources. As MOS:CULTURALREFS states, "Cultural references about a subject should not be included simply because they exist."

But we do need criteria that are unambiguous, objective, and common sense. — Goffman82 (talk) 21:54, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to petition to put some kind of warning at the top of the 27 Club article. something that reflects the split in opinion on how the article should be presented and reflects that the article needs some work to make it come off a bit more professionally.

Does anyone else agree? And if so, then we can at least agree to put a warning at the top of the article stating that it might not meet up to typical Wikipedia article standards and needs work etc etc.

Let me know what you all think about this. I think it might be a good middle ground for all involved. Thank you for your time. Emandudeguyperson (talk) 00:49, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

This is not a solution. If you have any precise ideas of what the tag might say, indicating exactly the problem with the article and how it might be fixed, then perhaps. But tags are not a way for editors to tell readers "I don't like this article". --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 13:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Your comment came across as very dismissive, and I do not appreciate that. It's not about just disliking an article, and that never was the point at all, and I stated my actual issues with the article several times in detail. How rude. I was simply stating that we could include one of the standard default templates at the top of the article that indicate that the article needs work to meet wikipedia quality standards. But I know you are totally opposed to doing that before I even said anything. Please, treat other users with respect. I did not say anything disrespectful towards you. If anyone else would like to add to the conversation without biting my head off, feel free to do so... Emandudeguyperson (talk) 17:15, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@Emandudeguyperson I'm sorry you think I was being dismissive, you seem to be extrapolating a lot from a few words.. I was just asking what tag you were thinking of adding, and what would it achieve? All Wikipedia articles are always in a state of improvement, and some need it more than others. But it's not usual to put a "could be better" notice on an article that doesn't specifically identify a problem, their purpose being to encourage action and/or discussion of the problem. The issues with this article can't really be described in one tag, and are largely a matter of opinion. So I don't see what an imprecise tag would achieve, other than an expression of dislike for the article as it stands. But if you have one in mind that identifies the problems and would help resolve them, happy to hear of it. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

10,000 days

I don't know if it's significant, but your 10,000th day of life happens when you're 27.JohnMason (talk) 17:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

It's only significant if WP:SECONDARY sources mention it. Binksternet (talk) 20:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Reverting History and Identified Members edits

@Binksternet I don't understand your revert edit summaries. Please elaborate on the rationale for reverting 1) my edit of the History section that was under active discussion here between me and the other editor, 2) my edit of the members list which has valid references? — Goffman82 (talk) 08:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

You are referring to this edit of mine, with the edit summary of "the source says some people were in the 27 Club, and some other people were not". I thought that was very clear. The mentalfloss source starts by saying some people are in the 27 Club, then it says that other people have also died at age 27. It DOES NOT say that these people are also in the Club. That's why I removed Pope John XII, etc. Binksternet (talk) 20:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the article is actually a bit ambiguous on this point. It says that "Club 27 is headlined by..." the famous musicians, but I think there's a strong implication that the others named are also to be considered in said Club, only that they're not the headliners. This sort of analysis is a bit on the silly side anyway, given that the Club isn't a real thing anyway. But I'd be inclined to include those listed myself.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. My reply below is in response to Binksternet's message above. — Goffman82 (talk) 06:12, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

That's an extremely narrow reading of the source:

On Saturday, Amy Winehouse passed away and became the latest member of Club 27—an exclusive club you don’t want to be in. Club 27 is headlined by musicians Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, and Brian Jones, who all died of a drug overdose, suicide, or accident at that young age. But the musically inclined aren't the only ones who die at 27. Here are 10 other people who didn’t live to see 28.

I think it's reasonable to assume that the article's author has the same definition of Club membership as the one stated in the lead of 27 Club: celebrities who die at 27. It's hard to imagine they decided to write an article about the 27 Club simply to inform us about 10 famous people who died at 27 who are not members for unspecified reasons. — Goffman82 (talk) 22:01, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, and I think this illustrates the problem with reliable sources forming the basis of who should be in a list. Some reliable sources are free and easy about including other people, which is fine, but we really should be asking; What does including all these people add to the article? Most of the time the answer would be; "Nothing." We do not need an every growing list of people matching an increasingly loose definition, in the opinion of maybe one source, to fully illustrate to the reader what the "27 Club" is. It's not as if the concept is difficult to grasp, the reader does not need dozens of examples to get the idea. And if the reader then wishes to decide that someone, who otherwise is not in the list, because no reliable source has mentioned them, is a member, well, who cares? There is no official factual list, there is no standing that can be falsely appropriated by a "false" member. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. While I continue to follow the existing inclusion criteria, I strongly agree that they need to be updated. — Goffman82 (talk) 07:50, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Since no one else has spoken up in favor of this revert, I'm going to reinstate the list additions for now. @Binksternet you haven't provided a rationale for reverting my edit of the History section that was under active discussion here between me and another editor. Is there one? — Goffman82 (talk) 07:39, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I did indeed provide a rationale for removing the names you added. I noted that the mentalfloss source did not explicitly place the additional names in the 27 Club. Failed verification is the problem here. Binksternet (talk) 15:46, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

You stated this, but from the comments in this section so far, nobody here agrees with you. The names are in an article about the 27 club, and the article doesn't say they're not in the club (as if that even means anything anyway) so they are valid entries.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

In my view, the Mental Floss article does not say that those people are members of the 27 Club. In fact, the article strongly implies that only rock musicians are club members. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 02:21, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

On reading the source more carefully: being pedantic (as we must) the mentalfloss source does not say these people are in Club 27. Indeed, it could be read that it is actually saying that they are not. As I said above, this issue just illustrates the almost arbitrary nature of our inclusion criteria. A slight rephrasing by one writer (Stacy Conradt in this case) can change if someone is in or out.

I'd also re-emphasis; the inclusion of these people does not add one iota of value to the article, or makes the slightest difference to how these people are regarded. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

At this point in the discussion it looks like there is no consensus to keep the mentalfloss.com source and its unusual list of people who died at age 27, including a pope. Goffman82 and Amakuru want to keep it, Escape_Orbit changed from keep to neutral, possibly leaning remove. Mudwater and I are favoring remove. When discussion is at an impasse, disputed text should stay out of the article per WP:ONUS. Note that Goffman82 has recently expressed a wish to tighten the inclusion criteria,[1] which would certainly result in the Mental Floss names going away. Binksternet (talk) 01:56, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I've just removed some entries sources to a 'Listverse' source on similar grounds; poor quality source, source just says they are notable deaths, not that they are club members. What is particularly distinguishing is that two of these people were not notable prior to their death, they were notable after. That does not fit with the criteria described at the top of the article. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 10:00, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Andy Bowen (May 3, 1867 – December 15, 1894) was an American lightweight boxer best known for fighting the world's longest boxing match. He died at the age of 27. Would he meet the criteria to be added to this list? Just a thought. 129.112.109.41 (talk) 20:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)