Talk:21st Lancers

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http://www.1914-1918.net/CAVALRY/hussars.htm
- In 19th Royal Hussars on 2011-05-25 06:47:50, 404 Not Found
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--JeffGBot (talk) 05:29, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge, given that most reliable sources have them as distinct. Klbrain (talk) 21:51, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to The Handbook of British Regiments, this regiment was a continuation of the 21st Regiment of (Light) Dragoons. I propose that we merge these two articles together; I'm not doing so boldly, as previously that article said the two regiments were unrelated, although the source provided did not support this claim. Further, I'm not familiar with the relevant guidelines for these articles, so it may be that they are deliberately separate. BilledMammal (talk) 13:12, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think they were separate. The 21st Lancers was a newly raised regiment formed in India in 1858. I usually refer to Regiments.org to resolve such matters.

The 21st Regiment of Light Dragoons was disbanded at Chatham in 1821. See Regiments.org. There does not seem to have been any continuation in between. Dormskirk (talk) 13:22, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following provides a direct chronology between the two:

The Twenty-first (Empress of India's) Lancers
1759-63. The 21st Light Dragoons, or Royal Windsor Foresters: disbanded.
1779-83. The 21st Light Dragoons: disbanded.
1794-1819. The 21st Light Dragoons: disbanded.
1858. The East India Company's 3rd Bengal European Cavalry.
1858-62. The 3rd Bengal European Cavalry.
1862-1897. The 21st Hussars.
1897-9. The 21st Lancers.
1899 (from). The 21st (Empress of India's) Lancers.^[1]

References

^ Farmer, John S. (1984). The Regimental Records of the British Army. Bristol: Crecy Books. p. 59. ISBN 0 947554 03 3.

Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 13:51, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will remove the merge tags as there does not seem to be any consensus on this issue. Dormskirk (talk) 14:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Dormskirk: While there hasn't been much participation here to form a good consensus, I don't think relying on regiments.org to argue against is a strong argument. As far as I can see it's an amateur attempt to compile information, mostly unsourced, and should not be considered reliable. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:01, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I take you point about regiments.org, but based on the chronology above there was a clean break of nearly 40 years between the 21st Regiment of Light Dragoons being disbanded and the 21st Lancers being formed. However, I am very happy to see more debate on the matter. Dormskirk (talk) 17:09, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's an argument to be made both ways for this. Farmer might clump the regiments together as one, but as you say there's a clear gap of 39 years between the two, and they're reformed as a very different regiment. My point was more in relation to regiments.org than your comment about consensus not being reached. This could be revisited if more sources are produced that specifically discuss the regiment(s), hopefully in more detail. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:14, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree. I have restored the tags to encourage more debate. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 17:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Chant (2004) book might help; the cited reference at 21st Regiment of (Light) Dragoons suggests continuity, but a check might be helpful if anyone has a nearby copy. Klbrain (talk) 11:10, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've checked Chant (1988) [Chant, C. (1988). The handbook of British regiments. London : Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1988] in my local (university) library, and they don't describe continuity. Rather (p.59) "The 21st Lancers (Empress of India's) appeared in its definitive form in 1857, though the number 21 had undergone three earlier incarnations." It describes those other uses of 21 much as the list from Farmer (1984) describes, but without regimental continuity. So, they share the number 21, but but the light dragoons and lancers share little else. Hence, oppose. Klbrain (talk) 15:48, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] Farmer, John S. (1984). The Regimental Records of the British Army. Bristol: Crecy Books. p. 59. ISBN 0 947554 03 3.

[1]